• Registered: 2018-04-26
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Topic: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

Okay.  Say I have a bona fide, not cheaty $500 car.  I blow a motor, have to replace it for $250, do I now have a $750 car?  Do I subtract the pre-detonation "value" of the old motor from the equation?  Clearly it would be impossible to race a car more than one or two races if repairs were cumulatively figured toward the cost of the car.  Over the course of a season I can see something like the K it Forward wagon costing $5000.  On the other hand, saying you blew your shitbox motor and just *had* to bolt in a 502 Chevy crate motor is hardly going to fly.  So. Where is the line?

It seems like big-ticket items (e.g. engines, trannies) have to be used, and small items (e.g. temp senders, gaskets) can be new, and semi-expensive items (alternator, starter) are overlooked IF they die on race day AND Autozone is nearer than the junkyard.

The big point of contention for me is a radiator.  If my old plastic-aluminum unit ties, I want something new in there, not another imminent leaker.  Do I need to just brace myself for this cost in the budget?

Also, if I were going to try to field a reliable racer one of the first things I'd do is replace all the belts, hoses, and vacuum lines.  Seems like this is also a gray area, and if you've got a crappy-looking or themed car this is overlooked in cost, but if you're driving a BMW M-3 not so much.

Is this assessment accurate?

  • From: Mankato, MN
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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

After the race you apply for residual value based on how crap the car/team was which could possibly give you 500 more dollars to play with. As for crap hoses and radiator, replace would be fine, no one wants you to dump all your water on the track and then oil it down when you don't notice and blow. Replacing stuff on race day seems pretty budget exempt, so bring new spares. If it's your first race build it how you want to, take the laps and come back better next time. Your more then likely going to find the weaknesses you missed or never thought of the first day and be wrenching even if you start with new stuff and a good rebuild.

Welcome to the madness

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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

For maintenance items a lot has to do with if what you are doing is going to give you an advantage performance or reliablilty.  Like chances are replacing a battery on your completely legitimate $500 car with another standard car battery that is one of the parts store brand won't get any grief (if the new battery is along with a bunch of other things it can be added onto the list of things you are getting dinged with)  Now if you replace it with some super light weight expensive battery than you will probalby get dinged cause not only did you make it so your car will start, but you dropped weight for a performance advantage.

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4 Reply by Fishah (edited by Fishah 2018-04-26 10:56 AM)

  • From: Chandler, AZ
  • Registered: 2011-04-18
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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

Make the car safe, and make the car reliable. Judges wont care about your radiator, your belts, your alternator... Any of that crap. I find it hard to believe they'd give you shit even for a high-po/lightweight battery.

At the track if you have to do a major swap, you're already way down the standings, so nobody cares what it takes or costs you to get back up and running. Just don't bring a cheaty car to the next race.

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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

You guys are awesome.  Thanks for responding.

@BoB, @Fishah, this make me sleep a little better as I contemplate getting a car to survive.

@addict#52 - So it sounds like understanding the "Residual Value" question is going to be key in our team strategy. 

For us the idea is just to make a stock car reliable, then incrementally improve it until it starts winning races.  It is not sexy, theatrical, or even inspired, just sound methodology.  If we can get enough room in the residual value to make the car a little better each time, not even with speed parts, just more reliable parts than what was there, we can eventually have a consistent and competitive car.

  • From: Mankato, MN
  • Registered: 2015-03-20
  • Posts: 354

Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

Check the rules, section 4.8, that explains residual value

  • Registered: 2018-04-26
  • Posts: 7

Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

OK, this is not going to go well for my team.  We are looking at racing a stock 1.6L Miata with an open diff.  No 1.8, no turbo, no limited slip. But if we prep the car enough to perform consistently, we aren't going to get much love in our plea for low residual value after each race. 

Based on section 4.8 and what I'm seeing of Lemons culture, eventually we will be driven back into mediocrity because we can't afford to keep maintaining the car, much less improving it.  If I'm reading the psychology right, we won't get a break on residual value until we start having catastrophic failures, and the whole point of our strategy is to AVOID catastrophic failures by spending the time to go through the car and repair everything we can on the cheap.  Clearly, we need a shtick, and a less viable car in order to get room to work from the judges.  It doesn't seem like a systematic or rational approach to winning will be rewarded.  Am I being pessimistic in this assessment?

My sense of humor is as dry as the next engineer's and we've got some fairly preposterous things to bring to the table, but at the end of the day, it's still a Miata with no upside-down Camaro or Vanagon body hanging from it.

8 Reply by RobL (edited by RobL 2018-04-26 11:55 AM)

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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

It doesn't seem like a systematic or rational approach to winning will be rewarded.

That depnds on what you want to win.  IOE is fairly easy to win. 

Top 5 in any class is also easy.  Stay out with no black flags and turn laps. 

Once you have a few races to your name, you will figure out how to win (and a huge part of that is luck).  I have 20+ races without a class win.  It doesn't bother me at all.

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  • From: Tustin, CA
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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

I think you might be looking at the residual value from the wrong perspective.  Some complain that the existence of residual value upgrades directly leads to speed creep in the series.  Think of it as traffic court.  You grovel before the judge, using your last race(s) finish results as your evidence and plead to fix your shitbox.  Then look to see if there is leftover money to buy used performance stuff.

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  • From: SF Bay Area
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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

I got a Res.Value from Jay once for $499.03. He suggested I buy a pine tree air freshener.
I asked Judge Phil about rebuilding a transmission, at least $500 in parts and cheap labor, he said - Just do it.
Blow an engine in one race, and show up to the next with it miraculously fixed, no one really cares. Blow an engine and show up with twin turbos at the next race, you'll get some grief. Then they laugh because they know you'll blow the new motor, too. If you manage to dominate, well you get moved up in class, or penalized a googleplex of laps the following race.

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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

Alternatively, we got a residual on the Dustbuster of $.76 although nothing really broke the first race...we did make improvements for the next race but not $500 worth.  Second race we set a caliper on fire, blew out a ball joint, etc.   Replaced it all without asking.  Next race another caliper caught fire, etc, etc.  Now the same vehicle is manual transmission swapped, C5 brakes, sway bar in the rear, etc and still class C, 0 laps.  Entertain the judges with your car choice, theme or something else and BS becomes a non-issue.

  • From: Wilmington, NC
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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

DelinquentRacer wrote:

I asked Judge Phil about rebuilding a transmission, at least $500 in parts and cheap labor, he said - Just do it.

This was our same experience. After our first race I asked Judge Phil after residual value to replace blown shocks and fix our auto transmission. He said to just replace the shocks with some OEM replacements and encouraged me to stick with the auto and figure it out but said if we need to swap with a 5 speed manual then go do it.

Since then we've replaced the radiator, alternator, belts, all hoses, gaskets, cv boots, and oil seals. None of these make your car faster. None of these were anything but the OEM equivalent. We've never gotten so much as a second look as they plant us firmly in Class B. We have been told that although we don't look fast, we need to be in Class B because we might be too reliable. So far, we've proven that wrong.

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  • Registered: 2018-04-26
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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

This is helpful.  It's not quite as grim as I'd suspected; seems like the goal is to keep everybody racing.  Still, we need to come up with much as we can in the theme department in order to reduce the grief factor.  Thanks for the feedback!

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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

VulcanMindFck wrote:

This is helpful.  It's not quite as grim as I'd suspected; seems like the goal is to keep everybody racing.  Still, we need to come up with much as we can in the theme department in order to reduce the grief factor.  Thanks for the feedback!

Miatas get a lot of grief on the forums and from other racers.  It's good nature ribbing because a miata is an easy button for racing.  At the end of the day, if you have a stock miata and didn't put a bunch of go fast parts on it, the judges aren't going to sweat you. 

But the grim reality is that a 1.6 Miata isn't going to be winning anything without some help.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

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  • From: SF Bay Area
  • Registered: 2012-01-06
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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

VulcanMindFck wrote:

[It] seems like the goal is to keep everybody racing.

You got it!

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  • From: Gilbertsville, PA
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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

RobL wrote:
VulcanMindFck wrote:

This is helpful.  It's not quite as grim as I'd suspected; seems like the goal is to keep everybody racing.  Still, we need to come up with much as we can in the theme department in order to reduce the grief factor.  Thanks for the feedback!

Miatas get a lot of grief on the forums and from other racers.  It's good nature ribbing because a miata is an easy button for racing.  At the end of the day, if you have a stock miata and didn't put a bunch of go fast parts on it, the judges aren't going to sweat you. 

But the grim reality is that a 1.6 Miata isn't going to be winning anything without some help.

^This.

A stock 1.6 miata is a very competitive class 'B" car that will be racing in "A"

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  • Registered: 2018-04-26
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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

A stock 1.6 miata is a very competitive class 'B" car that will be racing in "A"

Noted.  Maybe we'll have to figure out a pretext for putting a Maxima 3.0 in it.... even if we can do it for an honest $500, sounds like we'd better have epic bling and theme to make that fly...

18 Reply by BoB

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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

Having a miata you should have a pretty decent theme.  Can't recall if you put where you are from, but it's a full race saying you are racing a miata is not going to get you a guaranteed spot in that race.

If you document what you sell and how much you pay you shouldn't get to much grief about a swap as long as it is done legitimately.  Good paperwork and documentation is your friend.

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  • From: Cleveland, OH
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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

VulcanMindFck wrote:

A stock 1.6 miata is a very competitive class 'B" car that will be racing in "A"

Noted.  Maybe we'll have to figure out a pretext for putting a Maxima 3.0 in it.... even if we can do it for an honest $500, sounds like we'd better have epic bling and theme to make that fly...

I think all the pretext you need is “Lets put a FWD V6 in a miata.”

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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

I've always taken the approach of "if it isn't on the car, it isn't in the budget" and never bothered to apply for a residual value.

Yes, that means we were buying full vehicles to source replacement engines, then selling stuff off (for a profit).  Yes, it was a pain in the ass.

I think Balto was standing at $340 and change on the official budget when we put it to almost literal pasture.  That's down a bit from where it was for its first race, due to reasons, and it was on its... third motor?

  • From: Chicago, IL
  • Registered: 2013-09-02
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Re: How do repairs figure in to cost? What about maintenance items?

hoverducky wrote:

I've always taken the approach of "if it isn't on the car, it isn't in the budget" and never bothered to apply for a residual value.

Yes, that means we were buying full vehicles to source replacement engines, then selling stuff off (for a profit).  Yes, it was a pain in the ass.

I think Balto was standing at $340 and change on the official budget when we put it to almost literal pasture.  That's down a bit from where it was for its first race, due to reasons, and it was on its... third motor?

We never ask for residuals, just fix whatever's wrong and show up at the next race for BS inspection without paperwork or explanation of anything. If penalty laps are discussed, we laugh and ask if whoever is judging has seen our results from previous races...Last weekend at CMP somebody said "what do you think? A with twenty laps?" I laughed hysterically and suggested they make it a thousand as it wouldn't matter anyways...We ended up A with zero laps, and finished in 21st place behind several B cars.

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