1 Topic by aaron.vogel (edited by aaron.vogel 2018-05-04 04:32 PM)

  • From: Sutter Creek, CA
  • Registered: 2014-03-25
  • Posts: 171

Topic: Useful Basic Info for New Racers - Cornering, Passing, Racing Lines...

I recently came across a YouTube channel called Chain Bear F1 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7u-Dg … 7XjmtJrtpg

In this channel the guy both dissects recent F1 racing and, more useful to us, has some VERY informative videos that I feel are relevant to racing of any type. I've shared these with my team, but in the interest of raising the level of driving across the field I thought I'd share them here as well.

Before you seasoned vets start in on me about "Lemons isn't F1" just take a look at the videos, particularly the "The Art of Defensive Driving - Success and failure in overtaking" one and then tell me Lemons drivers couldn't learn a thing or two from this guy.

All About Corners - This video is a basic intro to taking corners on a race track
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXOYckDATWE

Racing Lines Explained - Covers the various ways to approach taking a corner on a race track. I think new racers can learn a lot about the alternatives available to them besides the basic outside-inside-outside line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEJh4lLCzRc

The Art of Overtaking - Knowing how to do this properly will keep everyone safer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNqa6ASJtZo

The Art of Defensive Driving - Again, knowing how to do this properly (and when to stop doing it) will keep everyone safer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D9cYz4C0I8

I'm gonna get super specific on this one because some people can't seem to get past the part that shows people "weeving around". To be clear: DO NOT DRIVE TO DEFEND YOUR RACE POSITION IN Lemons.

That said, here are the things you can take away from that video if you aren't a obstinate, myopic, crepehanger:

  • Don't pull any surprises in the braking zone. You can expand on this and say, "don't pull any surprises anywhere."

  • If a car is beside you don't act as if they're not there. Even if you're ahead don't push them off the track or come in on them. You MUST know where other cars are and where they're likely to be.

  • Don't weave around like a dink.

  • Know when to yeild

  • Crashing gets you fewer laps than losing ground and continuing on.

Some things I will specifically say you shouldn't do that is shown:

  • DON'T try to "brake the tow". No one is really drafting that much anyway.

  • DON'T do anything you see in the video that led to people contacting or crashing.

  • DON'T purposely compromise someone's line.

Hope these help people feel more confident and safer on track!

2 Reply by RobL (edited by RobL 2018-05-02 01:01 PM)

  • RobL
  • RobL
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  • From: Philly area
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
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Re: Useful Basic Info for New Racers - Cornering, Passing, Racing Lines...

However, I think there's some rare cases where driving defensively to prevent an overly aggressive driver from doing his/her thing is called for.

Always let the overly aggressive drivers "do their thing" away from you.  Just let them by as fast as you can as then it becomes in your power not to hit them vs. having them behind you for them to hit you.  If they truely are more skilled than you, then they deserve the pass.  If they run out of talent, they will get the black flags and be removed from the circuit. 

"Lemons isn't F1" just take a look at the videos, particularly the "The Art of Defensive Driving - Success and failure in overtaking" one and then tell me Lemons drivers couldn't learn a thing or two from this guy.

Nope.  Do not block.  Do not intentionally inhibit progress.  Do not weave.  Do not do anything unpredictable.  Do not make life any harder for any other car on the track.  Yes, the videos are informative.  Yes, they apply to sprint races.  No they do not specifically apply to endurance racing where you and the guy next to you may not even be close in laps.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

RobL's Website

  • From: Sutter Creek, CA
  • Registered: 2014-03-25
  • Posts: 171

Re: Useful Basic Info for New Racers - Cornering, Passing, Racing Lines...

"Lemons isn't F1" just take a look at the videos, particularly the "The Art of Defensive Driving - Success and failure in overtaking" one and then tell me Lemons drivers couldn't learn a thing or two from this guy.

Nope.  Do not block.  Do not intentionally inhibit progress.  Do not weave.  Do not do anything unpredictable.  Do not make life any harder for any other car on the track.  Yes, the videos are informative.  Yes, they apply to sprint races.  No they do not specifically apply to endurance racing where you and the guy next to you may not even be close in laps.

I think you and I took different things away from that video.

  • RobL
  • RobL
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Re: Useful Basic Info for New Racers - Cornering, Passing, Racing Lines...

I'm specifically talking about every instance in that video where he talks about compromising your opponent's line and how to benefit from that.  Don't do that.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

RobL's Website

  • Registered: 2010-03-08
  • Posts: 419

Re: Useful Basic Info for New Racers - Cornering, Passing, Racing Lines...

Racecraft very much has its place in Lemons.

  • From: Iowa
  • Registered: 2010-04-20
  • Posts: 2,660

Re: Useful Basic Info for New Racers - Cornering, Passing, Racing Lines...

Agreed, I get more passes in one Lemons race than 2 years in SCCA sprint races.  If you want to learn racecraft race Lemons.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.
  • From: Sutter Creek, CA
  • Registered: 2014-03-25
  • Posts: 171

Re: Useful Basic Info for New Racers - Cornering, Passing, Racing Lines...

RobL wrote:

I'm specifically talking about every instance in that video where he talks about compromising your opponent's line and how to benefit from that.  Don't do that.

I don't disagree. There's a lot more to those videos though, and I did say, "Generally speaking you shouldn't be driving defensively at all."

  • RobL
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  • From: Philly area
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Re: Useful Basic Info for New Racers - Cornering, Passing, Racing Lines...

Due to the nature of Lemons, there is a steady inflow of new racers who all seem to have the same testosterone boosted thought process of "We've got the best car and we're going to dominate!!!111."  Not all of them have any track experience.  And those that have, come into the race with bad habits.

What you are doing is portraying what we do as racing by comparing it to F1.  In the grand scale of motorsports where F1 is the pinnacle, we are in some sub-basement in the next building over.  Things that apply to "real racing" do not apply to what we do.  Yes, they count laps.  Yes, there are things that resemble cars.  Yes, it happens on a track.  But that's about the similarities end for novice teams. 

Lemons is all about traffic management and being aware of the cars around you.  Something that is hard to teach via a video.  When you show people a video about "how to take a racing corner" and say that this applies to Lemons, you aren't giving them the whole story.  And if their take away from the video is that this is how they drive in Lemons and how I'm drive when I get there, then they are going to have a bad time.  You may as well hand them the keys to a truck and have them drive around a city for all the similarity there is.  Doubly so when you even mention any kind of blocking or defensive driving.  They need to unlearn that quick lest they become the Pastor Maldonado of Lemons.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

RobL's Website

  • From: Tustin, CA
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 3,275

Re: Useful Basic Info for New Racers - Cornering, Passing, Racing Lines...

^ I tend to agree with this.  Rookie videos should be more about predictability, consistency and awareness.  Speed maximization and how to set up a pass should be kind of secondary to Lemons newbies.  Those secondary things will come with seat time.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)
  • From: Sutter Creek, CA
  • Registered: 2014-03-25
  • Posts: 171

Re: Useful Basic Info for New Racers - Cornering, Passing, Racing Lines...

hoverducky wrote:

Racecraft very much has its place in Lemons.

TeamLemon-Aid wrote:

Agreed, I get more passes in one Lemons race than 2 years in SCCA sprint races.  If you want to learn racecraft race Lemons.

Thanks, I'm glad some people see what I was trying to get at.

I've loved racing Lemons because the format allows for learning and applying race craft AND limits the overall competitiveness so you don't have a bunch of people pulling the kind of nonsense that drivers pull in sprint race formats.

  • From: Sutter Creek, CA
  • Registered: 2014-03-25
  • Posts: 171

Re: Useful Basic Info for New Racers - Cornering, Passing, Racing Lines...

RobL wrote:

Not all of them have any track experience. And those that have, come into the race with bad habits.

Yeah, and that's what I'm TRYING to help with. Race craft isn't something you pick up at HPDE or club track days. I've watched a lot of videos and listened to a lot of podcasts and read a lot of articles trying to learn that stuff, and I've still got a lot to learn. I found these videos to summarize a lot of what I've picked up, even the defensive driving one.

RobL wrote:

What you are doing is portraying what we do as racing by comparing it to F1.  In the grand scale of motorsports where F1 is the pinnacle, we are in some sub-basement in the next building over.  Things that apply to "real racing" do not apply to what we do.  Yes, they count laps.  Yes, there are things that resemble cars.  Yes, it happens on a track.  But that's about the similarities end for novice teams.

I never compared Lemons to F1. Just because F1 is used as the basis for talking about racing fundamentals doesn't mean I'm saying they're the same thing. CLEARLY they're not in pretty key ways: Sprint vs Endurance, $$$$$$$$$ vs ¢¢¢, professionals vs ... Roadkill fans. But in some ways they are: both are done on a track, both have people trying to get around the track in the fastest way possible, both involve dealing with other cars on the track. That's more than a few similarities, and those similarities is what these videos are talking about.

Also, Lemons IS racing. No one on that Lemons track is out there for a Sunday drive in the woods, not even the Rambler. And no one should take it as seriously as pretty much any other form of racing. But it sure as hell IS racing. People are out there to see how well they can do in any number of ways - new personal fastest lap, best finishing position, class winner, overall winner, IOE winner. That's all racing man.

RobL wrote:

Lemons is all about traffic management and being aware of the cars around you.  Something that is hard to teach via a video.

Did you see the part about knowing when people are along side you? If I come across a video that talks about traffic management I'll add it, but I haven't found that one yet.

RobL wrote:

When you show people a video about "how to take a racing corner" and say that this applies to Lemons, you aren't giving them the whole story.  And if their take away from the video is that this is how they drive in Lemons and how I'm drive when I get there, then they are going to have a bad time.  You may as well hand them the keys to a truck and have them drive around a city for all the similarity there is.  Doubly so when you even mention any kind of blocking or defensive driving.  They need to unlearn that quick lest they become the Pastor Maldonado of Lemons.

I believe that giving someone some of the story is better than none of the story. I felt okay with my caveats originally included in the post, but since some people need it spelled out for them I've amended it with specific things to take away from and NOT take away from that video.