Topic: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

Well we were up at NJMP doing some practice and well... this is the result. One of our drivers spun coming out of the bridge turn and collect the guard rail at the entrance of pit road. Thank God they had it stacked with trash cans full of dirt or things could have been much worse. He's fine car is not, cage did it's job and is still fully intact. He's not sure what happened he can remember anything from the crash. From watching the video he thinks instead of going into 4th he went down to 2nd and that caused it to come around. Shame it was a beautiful day and the car was running pretty good. The hit was so hard it pushed the drivers frame rail into the steering column and crushed 2 header tubes and the strut tower broke the brake booster off the firewall. The engine is fine and fired right up, drove it onto the trailer... Look for TiredBirds 2 Possibly for a late season race...we'll be back in black.(88 WS6 car) http://i67.tinypic.com/fapt3d.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/nldfs7.jpg
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http://i68.tinypic.com/55gw92.jpg

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

In-car, shame he was still doing his "warm up" laps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23oL0QS … e=youtu.be

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

3 (edited by Fishah 2018-05-12 09:13 AM)

Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

Ouch... That sucks man. I definitely agree it looks like a bad downshift.
Glad to see your driver was fine and you've got a replacement lined up!


Can you imagine if you didn't have a containment seat in a crash like this? His neck would have folded over on itself.

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Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

Fishah wrote:

Ouch... That sucks man. I definitely agree it looks like a bad downshift.
Glad to see your driver was fine and you've got s replacement lined up!


Can you imagine if you didn't have a containment seat in a crash like this? Hi neck would have folded over on itself.

or NASCAR door bars, going to add one more. I don't see how or why people drive w/ the old style X-bars

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

If your driver doesn’t remember the crash, be sure they get checked for a concussion.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
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Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

Guildenstern wrote:

If your driver doesn’t remember the crash, be sure they get checked for a concussion.

they did at the rack, they said watch him, standard stuff. he's ok. He's going to be sore for sure.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

I stopped over when you were loading up.  Glad the driver's OK.

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

I just watched the video.  Holy crap!

I hope you dont think I'm being a dick, but it helps to keep palm out (thumb down) when upshifting 2-3, 3-4, 4-5.

Silent But Deadly Racing-  Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird , Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits,  Space Pants!  Roy Fuckin Kent and The tribute to a tribute to a tribute THUNDERBIRD/ SUNDAHBADOH!

Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

Sir Thomas Crapper wrote:

I just watched the video.  Holy crap!

I hope you dont think I'm being a dick, but it helps to keep palm out (thumb down) when upshifting 2-3, 3-4, 4-5.

no worries. I've never gone from 3-2 but I have in the past gone from 2-5 (drag racing..not good, lots of clutch smell) and 5 to 4 (in a six speed). Not sure he had ever had that happen before. Could have been worse I guess, he really wasn't pushing the car. I was only his 2nd "warm up" lap.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

10 (edited by Fishah 2018-05-15 11:46 AM)

Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

From what I can tell, the only reason it happened, was because he wasn't pushing the car. I had to watch a few more times to get a grasp on how this went down.

He tried to short-shift from third to fourth before the turned in. His missed the gear entirely, and got stuck in neutral as he turned in.

At that point all the weight was off the rear, the car was on it's tip-toes, and grabbing any gear would have created a wiggly car. Entering a corner in neutral is basically one of the worst thing that you can do in a race-car.

When he grabbed second, it was an insta-lock of the rear tires. If he had been pushing full speed, he probably does that whole corner in third gear and upshifts to fourth in a straight line after the turn.

The lesson may be that even when you're "warming up", don't change your lines or shift points. That stuff is muscle memory and should never change.

Secondary lesson is that if you get stuck in neutral while turning (in a V8 RWD car), you may be better off coasting the corner and waiting until the corner is over to try to find your gear unless you can be sure the RPMs are low enough in your destination gear. Don't hit the brakes or insta-spin will also occur.

#33 Ford Festiva - We Are Not Really From Iran (Retired)
#928 Porsche 928 - West German Pushrodders (Retired)
#3 BMW E36 - The Internet says this is correct

11 (edited by Lemon_Newton-Metre 2018-05-15 11:56 AM)

Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

[nevermind]

12 (edited by TheEngineer 2018-05-15 12:49 PM)

Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

Couple of things I noticed.

1. The drivers hand almost never left the shifter the whole time out there. FIX THIS. This isn't drag racing, you're shifting like 4 times tops the whole lap (my car only times we shift are into 4th for the straight, and back to 3rd at the end). Steering is much more important and you will be smoother and much more in control with both hands on the wheel.

2. I couldn't be sure, but the first time through that corner onto the straight it sounded like the driver put the trans in 4th, but didn't actually release the clutch until after the corner was done, meaning you were coasting essentially in neutral. If this is true, why? Make that complete gear change before you enter the turn. Engaging the clutch mid turn, even in the correct gear will upset the car and ruin your day. For us I know I was taking that corner at 90 on saturday and the car was very near the limit. If I had waited until mid corner to engage the clutch I too would be in that wall.

The biggest mistake I see is the driver engaging the clutch mid corner. Even if he had 4th (honestly its impossible to tell from the video), by that point the engine wasn't rev matched and it was going to upset the car no matter what. If you don't have the gear in and clutch engaged before you turn in, just coast through before trying to engage the clutch. It's a really bad habit to get into (coasting like that), but it's better than crashing


Sucks the car got totaled, but take it as a learning experience that you have some driving habits to work on.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
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Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

An important thing for everyone to remember is; Don't Fight the Synchros.

Handle the shifter as Bob Bondurant says in his books "Like an Egg"

If it normally shifts fine, somethings not right if you're fighting it.

If it's always like that, well, double clutch and fix your gearbox.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

Fishah wrote:

From what I can tell, the only reason it happened, was because he wasn't pushing the car. I had to watch a few more times to get a grasp on how this went down.

He tried to short-shift from third to fourth before the turned in. His missed the gear entirely, and got stuck in neutral as he turned in.

At that point all the weight was off the rear, the car was on it's tip-toes, and grabbing any gear would have created a wiggly car. Entering a corner in neutral is basically one of the worst thing that you can do in a race-car.

When he grabbed second, it was an insta-lock of the rear tires. If he had been pushing full speed, he probably does that whole corner in third gear and upshifts to fourth in a straight line after the turn.

The lesson may be that even when you're "warming up", don't change your lines or shift points. That stuff is muscle memory and should never change.

Secondary lesson is that if you get stuck in neutral while turning (in a V8 RWD car), you may be better off coasting the corner and waiting until the corner is over to try to find your gear unless you can be sure the RPMs are low enough in your destination gear. Don't hit the brakes or insta-spin will also occur.

good points...didn't notice the miss shift...I'll take another look

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

Mr.Yuck wrote:
Fishah wrote:

Ouch... That sucks man. I definitely agree it looks like a bad downshift.
Glad to see your driver was fine and you've got s replacement lined up!


Can you imagine if you didn't have a containment seat in a crash like this? Hi neck would have folded over on itself.

or NASCAR door bars, going to add one more. I don't see how or why people drive w/ the old style X-bars

X-Bars when properly done are just as safe if not more.  in fact FIA cage rules mandate X door bars.  NASCAR door bars done with too much bend at the ends can actually be less safe.  Also both designs have positives and negatives in terms of egress, and your seat position can affect what you'd like to do.  For example in my car we welded in a custom seat frame allowing us to move the drivers seat inboard by nearly 5 inches.  The X Bars provide great height protection while still allowing for decent egress. 

Factory Porsche GT3 roll cages are gusseted X bars, if that tells you anything.



Fishah wrote:

The lesson may be that even when you're "warming up", don't change your lines or shift points. That stuff is muscle memory and should never change.

This right here is so true.  My warm up or yellow flag laps are exactly the same as race laps, just with a whole lot less throttle.  If you do something different  you're just going to mess up if you're not paying full attention, as we saw here.

Oh and yeah never ever drive the track holding the shifter like that.  2 hands on the wheel at all times unless actively shifting.

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Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

RogueLeader wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:
Fishah wrote:

Ouch... That sucks man. I definitely agree it looks like a bad downshift.
Glad to see your driver was fine and you've got s replacement lined up!


Can you imagine if you didn't have a containment seat in a crash like this? Hi neck would have folded over on itself.

or NASCAR door bars, going to add one more. I don't see how or why people drive w/ the old style X-bars

X-Bars when properly done are just as safe if not more.  in fact FIA cage rules mandate X door bars.  NASCAR door bars done with too much bend at the ends can actually be less safe.  Also both designs have positives and negatives in terms of egress, and your seat position can affect what you'd like to do.  For example in my car we welded in a custom seat frame allowing us to move the drivers seat inboard by nearly 5 inches.  The X Bars provide great height protection while still allowing for decent egress. 

Factory Porsche GT3 roll cages are gusseted X bars, if that tells you anything.



Fishah wrote:

The lesson may be that even when you're "warming up", don't change your lines or shift points. That stuff is muscle memory and should never change.

This right here is so true.  My warm up or yellow flag laps are exactly the same as race laps, just with a whole lot less throttle.  If you do something different  you're just going to mess up if you're not paying full attention, as we saw here.

Oh and yeah never ever drive the track holding the shifter like that.  2 hands on the wheel at all times unless actively shifting.

I'm talking about the x-bars that do not curve out towards into the door.. like in drag racing cars. That is enough to pass tech in Lemons.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

Mr.Yuck wrote:

I'm talking about the x-bars that do not curve out towards into the door.. like in drag racing cars. That is enough to pass tech in Lemons.

Yes true but I haven't seen anyone do that as if you don't bend them out they tend to end up right on top of the drivers seat making driving tough to say the least.  While not in the rules specifically as well I'd bet money Evil John would fail a car like that. 

Its easier and cheaper to make a curved out X bar than a NASCAR setup and most basic Lemons cage kits (if you go that route) can do this out of the box

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Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

RogueLeader wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

I'm talking about the x-bars that do not curve out towards into the door.. like in drag racing cars. That is enough to pass tech in Lemons.

Yes true but I haven't seen anyone do that as if you don't bend them out they tend to end up right on top of the drivers seat making driving tough to say the least.  While not in the rules specifically as well I'd bet money Evil John would fail a car like that. 

Its easier and cheaper to make a curved out X bar than a NASCAR setup and most basic Lemons cage kits (if you go that route) can do this out of the box

you walk around the pits and check out some of the cage work...

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

Mr.Yuck wrote:
RogueLeader wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

I'm talking about the x-bars that do not curve out towards into the door.. like in drag racing cars. That is enough to pass tech in Lemons.

Yes true but I haven't seen anyone do that as if you don't bend them out they tend to end up right on top of the drivers seat making driving tough to say the least.  While not in the rules specifically as well I'd bet money Evil John would fail a car like that. 

Its easier and cheaper to make a curved out X bar than a NASCAR setup and most basic Lemons cage kits (if you go that route) can do this out of the box

you walk around the pits and check out some of the cage work...

Oh I know, there are some sketchy cages out there, and depending on the race and who is doing tech many pass.  But your original statement seemed to dismiss the X bar design completely, thats what I'm saying.  For those not confident enough for all the cuts and bends of NASCAR a bent X bar is easier, just as safe, and offers the same or better egress.

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
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Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

Getting a bit off topic, but I'm with Tom here, X bars are perfectly fine. Everything comes down to your car and how you tailor your cage to it. My first car had X bars, and not even the outward bent ones. I never once felt unsafe getting in that car. The seat was nicely inside the cage and nothing of the driver hung over it. Now we use the style Tom refers to where it's two complete bars bent to meet in an outward bent X. I actually prefer it to nascar doors by a mile.

judge the cage as a whole as it was fitted to the car, not just based on one little detail.


Now back to the subject at hand. Get your drivers to keep both hands on the wheel.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
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Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

Glad your driver is OK. Glad you have a containment seat. Videos like this led us to get one too. Sorry about the TiredBird.

Could you post some interior pictures of the cage? It certainly did it's job. Very glad there were the plastic bins of sand at that barrier.

25X Loser - Delinquent Racing - '86 Rust-Tite Merkur - 9 years (when do I get to stop?).

Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

billybobster wrote:

Glad your driver is OK. Glad you have a containment seat. Videos like this led us to get one too. Sorry about the TiredBird.

Could you post some interior pictures of the cage? It certainly did it's job. Very glad there were the plastic bins of sand at that barrier.

Thanks, we are going to start cutting on the car Monday. I'll post them up.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

Ah crap....bad luck takes another F body out.  Sorry dude, we will be back I hope you guys will be back soon too!

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Re: R.I.P. #301 TiredBird

Tiptoe the rat wrote:

Ah crap....bad luck takes another F body out.  Sorry dude, we will be back I hope you guys will be back soon too!

already in the works, our man Matt pretty much has the old car stripped. http://i68.tinypic.com/15gtkds.jpg

"get up and get your grandma outta here"