Topic: Judges and Themes

Hey y'all.

We just bought a glorious two door, 3.3L, 67,000 miles beast of a Cutlass Ciera. Just a couple of questions.

I know that first time teams have no shot at the IOE, but will this even show up on judges radars? Obviously it's not some obscure European car that they only made 6 of or something, but still, will we at least be a tiny bit applauded for bringing this instead of an E30 out...?

If so, great. If not, we need to pull off a really good theme (which we want to do either way), right? So, what are the chances of getting noticed with a really well executed theme that basically keeps the car looking exactly like it is now but the team is all in on costumes? The un-decorated car would be very much on theme, by the way.

I also don't know if I should just say what theme we're thinking about or if there's sneaky sneaks on here who steal other people's ideas...

Yeah, we know we don't have a shot at the IOE because we're not going to do anything stupid like make it a rooftop engined, rocket powered Gutlass, but we do still want to get on the judges good side.

Re: Judges and Themes

I would guarantee class C no laps.

IoE could theoretically be had but it would have to be a thin field or all the bizzaro cars fail to turn many laps.

Theme is great and might get Judge's choice as a result....IoE takes some thing special.

Re: Judges and Themes

First time teams absolutely have a shot at IOE, its all about who brings the car least likely to turn a lot of laps and actually turns a lot of laps. As mentioned above a Cutlass Ciera is properly too nice for IOE in most races as they have proven to be reasonably reliable in Lemons. Your best chance will be to keep it completely stock, run 650 TW tires, but good brake pads and see how you go.

It is a fine choice, can compete for a class C win and not be too far off the pace in class B with a few mods.

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
24x Loser with the Celica. 16x loser in other fine machines
Overall winner Gingerman 2019

4 (edited by TheEngineer 2018-06-22 05:33 AM)

Re: Judges and Themes

IOE is usually not about theme. Usually. A great theme on a boring common car does not make it an IOE contender. Where it may come into play is if you have two cars both being looked at for IOE and there's some sort of tie breaker needed. But IOE is more about the car itself, not what the team dresses it up as.

Great themes bring you more in the running for judges and organizers choice.

But do not get hung up on prizes. Theme the car and show up. It's your first race, so you're going to be overwhelmed by everything. Focus on getting through the weekend with a good attitude and see where things go. Decide up front however what your team goals are. If you go throwing 650 TW tires on trying to make the car more hopeless but half your team really wants to try and be competitive, you're going to have a divide of people who will not be happy with that tire choice. Sit down and discuss what you want from the weekend.


FWIW, IOE is fickle. My daytona was an IOE contender, but it took like 3 years to win. Early on it was just too terrible and we didn't turn enough laps. After that there were races where more deserving cars showed up and it went to them. It took a while to hit that perfect race of enough laps turned and no superior cars doing better than us to finally win.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

5 (edited by Bayley 2018-06-22 07:32 AM)

Re: Judges and Themes

Fargo themes are always welcome in Lemons. Towing a blood stained wood chipper through BS inspection would easily get you judges choice, if nothing else.

The Pentastar whisperer

Re: Judges and Themes

Bayley wrote:

Fargo themes are always welcome in Lemons. Towing a blood stained wood chipper through BS inspection would easily get you judges choice, if nothing else.

I will tell you that I have had this exact conversation with Nick and Phil. And it would be butt-excellent.

Cutlass Ciera is Class C, all day, and should be an IOE contender. It just depends on who else is at the race and how well you do. It's all subjective. There is no "formula" for it, which people seem to think is a thing. I've written that before, but it's just a stupid joke about subjectivity.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: Judges and Themes

This is all great info, thank you!

My dad and I are going out to the Michigan race next weekend as spectators to get a feel for everything so we're not jumping in to this completely blind. I'm sure when it comes time for us to actually race we'll still be butt-terrible. Oh well.

We have two people on our team who make livings as mechanics. One of them owned a Ciera for a while. Actually flipped it over once on his way home, flipped it back upright, and drove it the rest of the way home. He got pretty excited when this car came up as a maybe for our team. Unfortunately, he's one of our drivers too.

Fargo theme is now on the board as a pretty strong possibility.

Does the experience of drivers come into play with IoE too? This is really just a curiosity question. We honestly don't have any expectations going in to it. But four of our five drivers have never truly raced anything more than go-karts. The fifth has only driven hobby stocks on a dirt oval. And he's like 60. So yeah.

8 (edited by OnkelUdo 2018-06-22 04:07 PM)

Re: Judges and Themes

If you are coming, My team (and their affiliates) are kinda of the unofficial Midwest Ambassadors/Pushers for Lemons.  Come see us next to the giant 2-car wedge trailer adjacent the timing tower.  I am the guy with the out of control beard potentially walking around in his bathrobe.

Try to make a portion of Friday Tech and BS inspection then enjoy the potluck...best way to meet the maximum number of teams and see the most important parts of Lemons for a new team.

FYI, we run the 1947 Plymouth and the Dustbuster minivan...both IoE winners.

Re: Judges and Themes

PugLife wrote:

This is all great info, thank you!

My dad and I are going out to the Michigan race next weekend as spectators to get a feel for everything so we're not jumping in to this completely blind. I'm sure when it comes time for us to actually race we'll still be butt-terrible. Oh well.

We have two people on our team who make livings as mechanics. One of them owned a Ciera for a while. Actually flipped it over once on his way home, flipped it back upright, and drove it the rest of the way home. He got pretty excited when this car came up as a maybe for our team. Unfortunately, he's one of our drivers too.

Fargo theme is now on the board as a pretty strong possibility.

Does the experience of drivers come into play with IoE too? This is really just a curiosity question. We honestly don't have any expectations going in to it. But four of our five drivers have never truly raced anything more than go-karts. The fifth has only driven hobby stocks on a dirt oval. And he's like 60. So yeah.

I'll be there in the Penalty Box all weekend. Feel free to drop by and talk shop. My Cutlass Cruiser is hella-butt not working right now and I haven't had time to futz with it, or else I'd bring it out. My other car is also not working, so I'm living my best Lemons life right now.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: Judges and Themes

PugLife wrote:

Does the experience of drivers come into play with IoE too? This is really just a curiosity question. We honestly don't have any expectations going in to it. But four of our five drivers have never truly raced anything more than go-karts. The fifth has only driven hobby stocks on a dirt oval. And he's like 60. So yeah.


The answer is yes, but with an explanation. Like Eric said, there is no magic formula for IoE. It's just the car that at that particular race impressed the HQ guys the most with how well it did for being as shitty as it is. So, sometimes they'll have 2 or 3 cars that are in the IoE running and it will come down to who does the most laps. In that case having good drivers will help. They may also look and see that one car had a ton of black flags, so don't reward them. So having hella terrible drivers will hurt you. So your answer is yes, driver quality does matter, but not in any finite definable way.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Judges and Themes

There absolutely is a formula.

Theme up. This is a race developed and run by auto journalists-- if your car can communicate a story in a single picture from 100yrds away at 60mph (ok, 40mph) then you have bumped to the front of the line for IOE contention. I say in a single picture because of the whole "auto journalist" thing--  By nature, auto journos are lazy because they know their readers are lazy. Being Photogenic makes their work easier. Consumers like pictures. The more work you do for the journos, the better your chances are for winning the highest award-- the showpiece of the event that that then becomes their vehicle for self-promotion (pun intended).

More stuff: Keep the car STOCK or do something absolutely over the top that it is obvious to the non-car dude or dudette. Don't over-prepare. Don't talk too much during tech. Have a great attitude. Don't get black flags. Zero black flags. Show that you "Get It". Help whomever needs it whenever you can. Bribe in the spirit of the event. Drive Clean. And be on the track all the time. When you are NOT on track, make sure it is on Sat and not Sunday. If you've got issues on Sat, there's a chance the journos will consume memory-altering substances Sat night-- just make sure you bust your ass to get back out on track as much as possible Sat and get your stuff fixed good again before Sunday morning. If you're a non-runner on Sunday, hungover journos will still remember that.

Even if you do that, someone may show up with Packard and you may get stuck with what some of us like to call the "Kiss Your Sister" award or "IOE Lite": Organizer's Choice. Org Choice used to mean a little more and came with some $ plus a trophy, but that was stopped a few years ago. Now it's just a trophy.

Re: Judges and Themes

My team decided to build a car to try to win IOE. We took aim at one of Judge Phil's favorite targets and build an Eagle Vision. It's still turned more laps in a race than any other LH platform car. But Judge Phil wasn't at the race and we didn't win it. Instead we won the kissing your sister award. Actually it was called the Chicago Cubs of Lemons for coming so close but not sealing the deal (This was before they finally won the World Series). Were we bitter? For about 2 seconds. That POS made for some great stories. Especially when it blew up at the 10th anniversary race.

Newest member - White Trash Racing
Owner of the Traveling Hat

Re: Judges and Themes

Good drivers means something different for IOE. A good IOE driver is somebody who is clean and babies the car around, not the guy setting the fast lap and then setting the car on fire. I guess all I'm saying is "you need good drivers" doesn't mean "go find all the hotshoes on the forum."

Owner of the Knights Templar Neon
A&D of middling proportions

Re: Judges and Themes

Plenty of experienced teams and drivers have gone and built crappy cars and won IOE. The judges are more interested in the crappyness of the car than the drivers.

Experience will help make the car shine, no black flags, having some pit organizations and prepping the car to avoid the usual old car pitfalls.

To win IOE you need to turn a lot of laps, to turn a lot of laps you don't want to have things like the organic parts store brake pads on fire after 30 minutes on track, you don't want the fuel tank that has not been full in 15 years to have all the rust clog the fuel filters. Heat is generally the enemy of endurance racing, add an oil cooler and trans cooler or upgrade what you already have with something bigger from the junkyard.

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
24x Loser with the Celica. 16x loser in other fine machines
Overall winner Gingerman 2019

Re: Judges and Themes

Brett85p wrote:

To win IOE you need to turn a lot of laps, to turn a lot of laps you don't want to have things like the organic parts store brake pads on fire after 30 minutes on track...

Come on, it was our second race (and third) we set the brakes on fire...and they were no organic pads.  I can say Type 200 burns the most beautiful color of green!

16 (edited by BoB 2018-06-25 07:51 AM)

Re: Judges and Themes

Brett85p wrote:

First time teams absolutely have a shot at IOE, its all about who brings the car least likely to turn a lot of laps and actually turns a lot of laps. As mentioned above a Cutlass Ciera is properly too nice for IOE in most races as they have proven to be reasonably reliable in Lemons. Your best chance will be to keep it completely stock, run 650 TW tires, but good brake pads and see how you go.

It is a fine choice, can compete for a class C win and not be too far off the pace in class B with a few mods.

More specifically My Cutlass Ciera has been to reliable in Lemons,  Sorry.

What year?

If you don't have the JA2 brake package switch over to it, and even better for the front upgrade to the later u-van brakes which will work and last even better.

Search ebay for the Factory Service manual for your year and make.  They are really well writen and will tell you step by step everything you will need to work on it with torque settings and everything.

Stop by this weekend.  We are the beige truecoat cutlass ciera.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

17

Re: Judges and Themes

therood wrote:
Bayley wrote:

Fargo themes are always welcome in Lemons. Towing a blood stained wood chipper through BS inspection would easily get you judges choice, if nothing else.

I will tell you that I have had this exact conversation with Nick and Phil. And it would be butt-excellent.

Cutlass Ciera is Class C, all day, and should be an IOE contender. It just depends on who else is at the race and how well you do. It's all subjective. There is no "formula" for it, which people seem to think is a thing. I've written that before, but it's just a stupid joke about subjectivity.

Also I need to put this on a shirt for this weekend.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

Re: Judges and Themes

Again, this is all great stuff and truly appreciated.


More specifically My Cutlass Ciera has been to reliable in Lemons,  Sorry.

What year?

If you don't have the JA2 brake package switch over to it, and even better for the front upgrade to the later u-van brakes which will work and last even better.

Search ebay for the Factory Service manual for your year and make.  They are really well writen and will tell you step by step everything you will need to work on it with torque settings and everything.

Stop by this weekend.  We are the beige truecoat cutlass ciera.

1990. We will definitely be stopping by this weekend. Like I said, one of our mechanics owned one of these for a while, so he knows a lot about them, but you obviously know a lot more about racing them.

Also I need to put this on a shirt for this weekend.

My parents own an embroidery shop and can do heat press stuff... roll

19

Re: Judges and Themes

Nah I'll just remind him as he puts me in B.

Ours is an 89 with the 2.8, we really don't know much, mainly we have resigned ourself to lettin the car do what it wants and not messig with it.  Everytime we mess with it we screw up.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

20

Re: Judges and Themes

Oh yeah everyone is going to tell you to stick in a supercharged 3800.  Win IOE than do that if you want to.

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

Re: Judges and Themes

BoB wrote:

Oh yeah everyone is going to tell you to stick in a supercharged 3800.  Win IOE than do that if you want to.

that engine is addictive...

Re: Judges and Themes

OnkelUdo wrote:
Brett85p wrote:

To win IOE you need to turn a lot of laps, to turn a lot of laps you don't want to have things like the organic parts store brake pads on fire after 30 minutes on track...

Come on, it was our second race (and third) we set the brakes on fire...and they were no organic pads.  I can say Type 200 burns the most beautiful color of green!

I thought it was the first race when they caught fire and we won IOE? After the transmission line failure?

Owner of the Knights Templar Neon
A&D of middling proportions

Re: Judges and Themes

BoB wrote:

Nah I'll just remind him as he puts me in B.

Ours is an 89 with the 2.8, we really don't know much, mainly we have resigned ourself to lettin the car do what it wants and not messig with it.  Everytime we mess with it we screw up.

Just remember who put you in Class C last time.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

24

Re: Judges and Themes

therood wrote:
BoB wrote:

Nah I'll just remind him as he puts me in B.

Ours is an 89 with the 2.8, we really don't know much, mainly we have resigned ourself to lettin the car do what it wants and not messig with it.  Everytime we mess with it we screw up.

Just remember who put you in Class C last time.

Spank

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

Re: Judges and Themes

We won heroic fix in his first race last spring at CMP and then won the IOE this year in the spring. We did this in a 1988 Escort GT with stock suspension, brakes, motor, etc. The car was an old circle track car we pulled out of a field and made Lemons legal.

We won the IOE by finishing in the middle of the field with the 5th slowest average lap time because we stayed clean. No black flags. It also helped that we collapsed a front strut on Saturday and with no replacement available within 200 miles we scarfed up a used MR2 strut and ground and welded until if fit and ran it on Sunday.

Go to your first race to have fun and learn. Keep your nose clean and make some friends!

1988 Escort GT
2017 CMP Spring Heroic Fix
2018 CMP Spring IOE