Vehicle valuation question (bmw e36)

In the end, it does not matter...no matter what you get to race...unless you are in one of the two regions that waitlist (west coast and Northeast) so who cares.  If you know it, love it and want to race it do just that.  What is the worst that can happen?  A few penalty laps when you have no hope of winning?  Prep it, make it safe, make it reliable, race it...then look for something more interesting to race some time down the road.

Also note that only because it's a BMW, you will catch some crap from the judges.  Don't take it personal. Even if you've raced in this series with a Geo Metro for 10 years and they know who you are, the first time you show up with a BMW they will still give you crap and not believe a word you tell them.  That's just the price one pays for bringing a BMW to Lemons.  After a couple of races once they are assured that you are not some ringer team bringing a ringer car, they won't bother you anymore.  And the more you protest about it' being a shit car, a shit team, etc the longer it will take.  They operate under a "Don't trust but Verify" policy so you'll just have to demonstrate your inabilities on the track.  Make a a good faith effort to sell off what you can, document the transactions - take pictures of money changing hands/paypal receipts with clear description, etc, show up with a good theme, exhibit good humor and you'll be fine.  No, you won't win anything because you don't know what you don't know and the people doing this at the pointy end of the field have lots of experience and do know.  Make the thing safe, make it reliable, (i.e. replace guibo, front hubs, plastic cooling bits that fail) and you'll be fine.  Your location isn't included in your post.  Some races do sell out so if you tell people where you are/what races you plan to enter they can give advice.  For instance, out west here the Sears Point races are always massively oversubscribed (like roughly half the entrants don't get accepted at times) so you really have to stand out to get accepted.

Well, one of my team members bought the running/driving E46 with the rear subframe ripped out that was advertised on this forum with an actual owner documented 240k original engine miles for the $500 asking price.  Didn't matter once it got to BS inspection, they didn't care about mileage.  In reality, why should they believe it?  I would imagine high mileage clusters do not sell well or for much in the junkyard.  Ultimately, bringing a BMW E3x to Lemons is considered to be pushing the "Easy" button"

Your agreement or disagreement holds no sway with the judges so if you are getting hung up on this now, step back and decide if this is the series for you.  Aka, see my post.  If you are in-it-to-win-it in your first race verses have a good time and learn, you might have chosen the wrong series.  You will Get class A with an E36 first race unless you find a way to make it terrible (Iron Duke Swap, slant 6, etc) or have the most amazing theme ever (Dumpster fire).  You have a decent chance of getting laps but unlikely.

Stop focusing on "Valuation" and start deciding three things:

Why are you racing Lemons (cheap track time, fun atmosphere and people, running an old car hard, etc)
Are you prepared for the completely "arbitrary" rulings of the judges without getting bent out of shape (they are not arbitrary, just seem that way)
Am I racing this particular car in Lemons for the right reason (all those special tools and knowledge seems like yes)

The region you are in or race you want to enter would be a huge help.  Lots of "Boring" BMW's and Miata's get waitlisted in Cali and some in the NE.  Everywhere else, BS does not matter because you still get to race!

So what EXACTLY are you worried about?

Maybe we got off on the wrong foot or maybe I came across the wrong way. You don't know me and I don't know you. It's been over ten years but all I know is very strict tech, spec e30, bmwcca and scca.

You ask what I'm worried about? I'm honestly worried about my personal safety and the safety of my team. All I know is tech where cage geometry is measured and scrutinized or when engines get torn down post-race.

So now I enter this world of (what is supposed to be fun) and I'm presented with 'BS inspection' where judges can do what they want depending on which way the wind blows that day. I walked away from racing because of BS like that. I'm sitting here trying to put together a team, eager and excited to race again --and I'm worried that I'm going to get dicked around over the car I show up with. I'm trying as hard as I can to learn the rules and comply with everything yet at the same time I'm being told that the judges can (and will) do whatever they want, whenever they want. What kind of example is that? Why can't I cheat too?

I have experience with BMWs. Not sure if you have ever owned or built a car. I've built six cars. All BMWs. t would be foolish of me to try and get into a different car. Entering a car that I'm familiar with makes it easier to finish which means we can focus on more important things like a theme or what we are going to eat/drink/bbq smoke trackside.

I think the other problem is I have no experience with Lemons so I don't know what actually happens vs. what is said on the forums. It's a decent chunk of change to bring a car to the track and I'll be bankrolling a lot of it. I'm asking these questions because I want to operate within the rules and the spirit of the race/event. I don't need to spend all that money and all that time worrying about a budget and itemizing receipts only to show up to tech with a 350# team member who currently cannot drive a manual transmission (not kidding, he's 350 on a good day) and get my balls busted over the car we happened to have. If you are going to bust my balls for no reason then why can't I cheat? If you are going to unfairly assign me laps or bump me up a class then why can't I pull one past you guys?

How about you just be decent and up front about things so you don't push away good racers who also happen to drink good beer and cook a mean pork shoulder?

I'm starting to get turned off by all this BS. We have an original theme that we've been working on for two years. To our knowledge no one has done anything close to it yet. Would involve transforming the e36 into something that would make it completely not competitive. Not being able to get a straight answer might be a deal breaker. The crazier the theme the more money (and time) we'd have to put in. I'm not going to put that much into an unknown.

Starting to get turned off/discouraged.

From a previous 1215 thread from 09/17 [I'm again thinking this is a troll account; but, just in case it's not, here's a reminder for the o.p.]:

Intro and a few n00b questions:

General vagueries:

- Anything with an M52 is going to be in Class A unless you weigh it down with an extra 500 pounds.

- Any E36 is going to get an extra few minutes of scrutiny and some pointed questions. Can't really say much beyond that without seeing the car. That's the point of BS Inspection. It's assumed you're cheating. Don't feel special about that...everyone with a BMW, Miata, Mustang, etc. is cheating, too. Come up with a plausible story, clever budgeting, and low expectations. You'll still get to race no matter what else happens.

- A good theme really will reduce the scrutiny by a lot. The garbage-truck E36 probably had every M part in the catalog on it, but who cares? Look at the damn thing:

- A clever bit of bribing (More than just an expensive bourbon...not every judge drinks, mind you) lets the judges know you "get" it and are mostly around to have fun.

Specific things:

- If you want to talk about what the theme is, Cheseroo is on the money: Email Phil and/or me with your idea. Sounds like it's a good one if you pull it off.

- We get a lot of people who convert their street cars to Lemons duty. If it's plausibly toe-up from the flo' up, you won't get a ton of crap. But if you loaded it up with suspension parts 5 years ago that are still on it, expect to have to explain those.

- More than anything, just come to a race to check it out in person, ideally on Friday to see Tech and BS inspections. That goes a long way to explaining that the arbritrary nature of BS Inspection isn't really as limiting or crippling to your ability to have fun as the general impression is.

Cheers.

Going to try and reply in one post so will quote parts of replies for simplicity. It is not my intention to quote anything out of context.

Thank you. That was a huge help. I don't mean to come across as a stuffy jerk. We really are a fun group. It's just that some of us are competitive (mostly me) and I don't like the idea of going into something knowing we could get BS penalty laps from the start... Forever.

Starting with #7: I asked a few months back about waivers and such. The team I've put together is comprised of rather large (wide, not tall) males and all of us are married to petite nurses. I had a line on a 1950's right hand drive International Travelall ambulance but I was informed that I probably wouldn't get a weight waiver. Would have been a great theme. We know lots of real (and attractive) nurses who like cars/racing.

I know the e36 is pressing the "easy button" but I own it (and I guess technically since it was given to me my cost basis is $0 therefore I'd be dumb not to try and use it). The devil you know... I've maintained the car. I know what it needs to be reliable. I guess I could always swap a 1.8L M10 with a 4 speed into it. Have a few of those laying around.

#6, Most of us are on a BBQ competition team together too. This is just a bunch of idiots looking to have fun. They have no clue what I roped them into. I'm getting my panties all up in a bunch over BS laps and one of the guys can't even drive a standard. (and he weighs north of 350# which will present challenges...) I don't think any of us are looking at this as cheap track time. We are looking to meet people and have a good time. If I wanted to put together a race team and build a legit track car, none of them would be interested. They are only in it for the themes and fun.

#5, I think that would help. I'd like that. How do I go about it? Just show up?

#4, that is our exact goal.

#3, I'm sorry if I came across as if I was looking to win or be super competitive. I am a competitive person but as I mentioned, one of the guys doesn't even know how to drive a standard. We'll show up with a car that will make it the whole weekend... assuming they don't hit anyone or crash it into something.

#2, I think my point was that if we end up wanting to race again and we want to re use this car I don't want to be 5 years into it (with a semi-experienced team) and still getting jerked around with BS inspection.

#1, that does help to know they are separate. Some of the stuff I've seen (cages, welding, etc.) is scary. Hopefully whoever is running tech knows their stuff.

Thanks again.

What exactly is the trolling part of what I asked? I have prior racing experience, I can build cars and I know nothing about Lemons --but it looks like fun and it's something I'm interested in. Where is the trolling? Does this forum have an ignore button? If it does not they I would ask you to please ignore my posts/comments and do not participate in them. I'm curious about Lemons and your comments are reflecting poorly on your community.

Thanks. That helps. I've come up with a few themes and I've had a few email exchanges with organizers about them. Every time the vehicle waiver (due to vehicle weight) was the hurdle we couldn't get past. I have no clue about a theme right now. My wife is knocked up, the car I've been driving is 20 years old, has 297k miles on it and she says it needs a new one by the time the baby comes. When you say "can't say anything without seeing the car". It's bone stock. Go onto Wikipedia and look at a photo of a brand new December 1997 production 328is. I put in a single mass flywheel last clutch and I bought a shifter with aftermarket bushings at that time too. I have a cold air intake thing with a K&N filter and I've done my own tune (optimized for fuel efficiency). Most everything on the car has been replaced but with stock parts. Zero performance upgrades. It is a very mint/clean, bone stock 328is.

We have planned on going to races several times in the last few years and every time I've gotten called away for work. Hopefully this summer/fall.

So the whole "it's assumed you are cheating" thing. Do people really cheat that bad? I think I'm getting all bent out of shape because I don't plan on cheating so I feel like the least I could get in return is a fair deal. Because if it's assumed I'm cheating, I might as well cheat. (not that it would matter our first few races, we would be a disaster).

The bribe part we think we have a few good non-booze related ideas. Biggest concern is I don't want to destroy this car and then have it be a total flop/fail/regret. It is a perfectly good street car right now. Maybe I should show up to a Friday and watch. Make sure it's really a good event for us to try and participate in.

I'd rock an old school 900 and if I could get my hands on a super old 2-stroke saab I'd absolutely do it. If you put yourself in my shoes I don't think anyone would blame me. None of the guys I roped into this have a clue about suspension geometry, spring rates, etc. They all take their cars to the stealership to change their oil. We are going to have to rent track time prior to an event just so it's not their absolute first time ever on a track.

The first rule of doing anything on a track: Never take a vehicle that you are not 100% ok with totaling and never seeing again. Doesn't matter if it's a basic HPDE track day or wheel to wheel racing. If you will have a problem with never driving that car again, don't put it on track.

Your car will take damage in Lemons. It might get 100% totaled. It will never really be a street car ever again. If you don't like that idea, find another car.

On every forum that I participate in, I always assume best intentions from the participants.
In my experience on this forum 99.5%, or greater, of the posts are posted with best intentions. The
few times that I have seen anything negative posted, it is usually because of a misunderstanding, and possibly poor word choice.
On vary rare occasions, a post has been insensitive. As a whole, this is a VERY helpful, and supportive community.

As to the Lemons experience (My personal take):

• You don't have to have a great theme, or a new theme. Judges may misunderstand your theme and dislike it intensely until they understand it. (Personal experience.) A great theme, or at least a serious effort at a theme, demonstrates that you get Lemons. It can also help gain you entry to oversubscribed races.

• BS laps don't mean much if you haven't already figures out how to win a two-day endurance race with your car and team. My first race
  we received no BS laps. and finished 30th because it was nearly a demo derby and the car was tank-like. My second race in the same care we received 1400  BS laps. Why? Well, the first race we showed up so late that the judges mostly just waived us through since we were a team of 1 - HS Auto Shop Teacher and 4 - Students. The same car years later has been classed as both A-Class (A total joke in my view) and B-Class a different races. It didn't really matter, because we hadn't figured out how to win, or weren't serious enough about it to care. Someday, it will matter, but until then, Meh.

• Lemons takes safety very seriously. Any car that has had serious damage in a crash or other failures (read 10' flames shooting up over my windshield and roofline) receives intense scrutiny after the incident, and prior to racing again. I've had some overly cautious tech inspectors with some overly cautious change requirements, but the rules are straightforward and easy enough to meet. They have also changed over the years to reflect lessons learned by the organizers.

• Driving in Lemons races can be a lot of fun, and very instructive. However, you must remember that this is the dull end of the racing driver stick. There are no racing lines, only racing lanes. Change lanes at the wrong time and you'll likely find a upside-down Camaro, helicopter, boat, garbage truck, tractor, skunk, or other ridicules vehicle on "your" line. With that said, it's a GREAT way to learn to race in traffic, and a pretty damn good way to find where the traction is "off-line".

• Lemons is supposed to be fun, serious racing. Test yourself, your car, and your team. IF you're not enjoying the experience, then you are probably too competitive, and Lemons isn't for you. It sounds like it is exactly what you're looking for, though.

• Lemons is not going to destroy your race car. Racing will do that for you. Just remember that other teams may have high school drivers, or drivers that don't know how to drive a manual transmission, or any other combination of inexperience that could end with unfavorable outcomes. As you seem to understand, $h!t Happens in racing. Your car may be irreparably damaged during use through very little fault of your own.

I hope this helps move you in the direction of participation and not away from it.
If any of the above maunderings dissuade you from racing in Lemons ignore them, please.

<snip>

Here's the actual rule on pricing:

4.1: Total Investment in Vehicle Can Not Exceed $500: Except for items described in Rules 4.2 and 4.3, the total spent to purchase and prepare any car may not exceed $500.
4.1.1: Lame-Ass Rationalizations: Cars that “should be” worth $500 don’t count; cars that “were worth $500” before you spent another $2000 to fix them don’t count; cars you’ve owned for 20 years and spent more than $500 on during that time don’t count; “it would have been worth $500 if it didn’t already have a cage” doesn’t count. Five hundred dollars means five hundred frickin’ dollars.
4.1.2: Lame-Ass Rationalizations About Parts: Same deal. “Free” parts, parts given to you by your buddies, parts left lying around the shop…that crap doesn’t impress us. It’s worth whatever the last real guy paid in the last real purchase. Don’t think you’re clever.

So by the letter of the rule, it would be based on what your grandfather, or whomever originally paid for it.

As others have chimed in, how this is actually enforced may vary.  And again, if it were me I'd probably just save myself the trouble and fabricate a really good story (and theme).

I've found the organizers to be very reasonable.  I think it has as much to do with your attitude when you show up for inspection as it does with the car itself.

bs

... and your theme is right in there somewhere, I'm sure. . . has Ivy-League Yuppie Mafia been a theme yet?