26 (edited by Spank 2018-12-18 10:42 AM)

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

Guildenstern wrote:

Which drives the question, why are they even stickers? At first I just assumed they had extra 1/4 sheet sticker blanks they had to get rid of.

Now in 2018 I wonder did they get that many sticker blanks? Wouldn’t it be cheaper to just use 24 pound paper at this point?

Maybe because some idiot might try to, oh, I dunno, build two identical cars and swap the tech sticker from one car to the next to limit their pit stop times during a 24 hour race...

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

Except they tell you now to tape them to the inside of the window, so it’s effectively just a piece of paper as capable of those brilliant shenanigans at less cost to Lemons.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

Guildenstern wrote:

Except they tell you now to tape them to the inside of the window, so it’s effectively just a piece of paper as capable of those brilliant shenanigans at less cost to Lemons.

This is what we'be been doing for the last 10 years anyway.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

They're doing it because they think it's funny how annoyed you're getting.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

TheEngineer wrote:

They're doing it because they think it's funny how annoyed you're getting.

Damn it! Why did I just see this now! Nicely done!

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

After our experiences last weekend at Barber (and other events), it would be real great if we could Windex our windshields in the hot pit.  Not while fueling of course, and maybe on a per race basis like refreshing the cool shirt systems.  The late fall-winter-early spring races when the sun is low in the sky can be brutal.

Part of me says that, based on watching hundreds of fuelings in the hot pit, that it will just be too much for some teams to handle, but I also know that some teams are so uber competitive they will run blindly down the track if it meant not losing a lap to clean a window.  That scares me more than bumbling crews.

30 entries since 2009
#39 & #53 Overengineer'd Racing - Wilton, NH
http://www.facebook.com/nhlemons

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

Windshield cleaning would be nice.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

I'm not oing to argue for or against the rule, but it should be noted the "other" series allow all manor of work in the hot pits. As long as it takes less than a certain amount of time. We regularly do lug nuts, pressures, driver change, cool box and windows. Have done brakes, and tires as well.

I aint been run over yet, at least I don't think so.

With our focus on safety, the other things I can see, but not beeing able to see?

Maybe we need a washers required rule.

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

Does this other series have assigned pit spots and can set up there the day before?  It matters because then you can have your tools and everything that you might need close at hand.  If someone needed to do brakes, for instance, and forgot a brake compression tool, there would be much consternation in an already high stress environment. 

To me, windshield cleaning on pit lane is a no-brainer.  But it's not my circus and you guys aren't my monkeys.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

fitsbain wrote:

I'm not oing to argue for or against the rule, but it should be noted the "other" series allow all manor of work in the hot pits. As long as it takes less than a certain amount of time. We regularly do lug nuts, pressures, driver change, cool box and windows. Have done brakes, and tires as well.

I aint been run over yet, at least I don't think so.

With our focus on safety, the other things I can see, but not beeing able to see?

Maybe we need a washers required rule.

How many cars at that race?  110?  140?  200?

Again, this did get hashed over on facepages to no end but I agree that windshield cleaning should be allowed.  I also know why they stopped allowing it and having watched how a lot of teams operate, the decision was not wrong. 

My favorite still being a guy at Barber literally started yelling at Judge Steve because he would not let him over the wall to fuel in street shoes.  If you have met Steve you can imagine how that ended.

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

We added washers back to our car after Road Atlanta 2017. They still don't work that well.

We could clean the windshield while strapping in the driver. It would not increase pit times enough to matter.

I like Hot Pit fueling and think we should do it at EVERY track. If there is ever a fueling fire doing paddock fueling, I invasion a massive cluster. I think Hot Pit fueling is safer and puts everyone on an even playing field from a competitive standpoint.

This weekend at Barber, there were times the hot pit was crowded and times it was empty. We only used a small portion of pit lane.

We also race with other groups that allow much more work in pit lane, assign pit boxes and so on, I like it.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

Sorry if I missed it, but whats the reason for disallowing window washing in hot pits?

Takata R&D :: 93 Accord - team captain
GoPro 360 Heros :: BMW E28  - co-captain

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

aventari wrote:

Sorry if I missed it, but whats the reason for disallowing window washing in hot pits?

It leads to much greater sins (and I don't mean dancing).  People were changing tires, doing brake work, checking oil, etc.  The problem is with 100+ cars using the hot pits just making sure folks do the two or three things they are allowed to do safely taxes the minimal resources devoted to monitoring it.  The rule of "nothing but fueling and driver change in the hot pits (now with occasionally allowing cool seat cooler refill)" came about because people would not stick to rule of 2-3 things only.

Obvious answer if they ever expand what is allowed is to make the penalty EXTREMELY steep so the few idiots do not suin it for the rest of us (idiots).  Say any infraction gets the person holding the tool wrist ban cut and the team parked for two hours. 

You still have the issue of the manpower to monitor it.  Other option is one I saw at Autobahn for speeding in the pits.  Offending driver has to man the radar gun until they catch another team speeding worse than they were...so now make the offending teammember monitor the hot pits (while their car remains parked) until they catch someone doing something other than fuel, driver change, windshield cleaning and catches it on camera.

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

OnkelUdo wrote:
aventari wrote:

Sorry if I missed it, but whats the reason for disallowing window washing in hot pits?

The problem is with 100+ cars using the hot pits just making sure folks do the two or three things they are allowed to do safely taxes the minimal resources devoted to monitoring it.

I've raced at tracks with hot pit fueling and paddock fueling. Who monitors Paddock fueling at Thunderhill or Sears Point?

I've also raced with organizations that allow work in the hot pit along with setting up camp in assigned pit boxes. Somehow other organizations running less than 100 cars can afford the necessary staff.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

aventari wrote:

Sorry if I missed it, but whats the reason for disallowing window washing in hot pits?

I've argued this here many times, and have been told via Judge Phil that if they allow this (cleaning windshields) it will open the flood gates to many other things that would then have to be policed.  Let's be honest, a lot of Lemons "policing" is arbitrary at best, and they don't want to pay for more police either, so there's that.

As far as what the 'other series' allows to be done in the pits, that has it's own share of problems.  OK, so you are allowed to change tires, check pressures, or even do an engine swap if it can be done in 30 minutes or less.  Sounds good, but what if your pit mates need to do the same?  Pit mates?  Wait, we have to share?  Yeah, the other teams or team(s)! that are also assigned to your pit box might want to change a tire at the same time, but you were there first, so they are hosed.  Oh wait, can we just use the next pit box up/down?  Sure, and the problem just perpetuates itself on up/down the line.

Unfortunately some (most?) tracks don't have enough spaces on the hot pits for assigned stalls like NASCAR, and then someone is tasked with assigning those and policing them as well.  Yeah, that ain't ever gonna happen.

Hell, back when we started at CMP in 2007, we weren't even allowed to add ice for the Cool Suit in the hot pits

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

41 (edited by VKZ24 2019-02-05 12:40 PM)

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

OnkelUdo wrote:

Obvious answer if they ever expand what is allowed is to make the penalty EXTREMELY steep so the few idiots do not suin it for the rest of us (idiots).

I'm 100% OK with that.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

42 (edited by aventari 2019-02-05 01:00 PM)

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

OnkelUdo wrote:
aventari wrote:

Sorry if I missed it, but whats the reason for disallowing window washing in hot pits?

It leads to much greater sins (and I don't mean dancing).  People were changing tires, doing brake work, checking oil, etc.  The problem is with 100+ cars using the hot pits just making sure folks do the two or three things they are allowed to do safely taxes the minimal resources devoted to monitoring it.  The rule of "nothing but fueling and driver change in the hot pits (now with occasionally allowing cool seat cooler refill)" came about because people would not stick to rule of 2-3 things only.

You still have the issue of the manpower to monitor it.


Not trying to arguing with you, but the "it takes extra effort to police" angle doesn't make sense. You already have rules that say "only driver change and fueling", so you already have to have resources to monitor that. Those same resources can monitor windshield cleaning with virtually zero extra effort.

And the slippery slope argument doesn't hold water either as you have governing body that is only beholden to itself. They would have no reason to acquiesce to: "you allowed this so you have to allow that"

It doesn't matter to me anyway as nowhere I race in Lemons has hot pits, it's just interesting to me.

Takata R&D :: 93 Accord - team captain
GoPro 360 Heros :: BMW E28  - co-captain

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

I suspect they just don't want to open the floodgates of whiny racers going "well you allowed us to clean our windshields, so why can't i check tire pressure? they're both harmless!" Breaking from the established rule makes people think they can ask for more. I bet they didn't even want to give in on cool shirt ice, but that's a safety issue.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

aventari wrote:

Not trying to arguing with you, but the "it takes extra effort to police" angle doesn't make sense. You already have rules that say "only driver change and fueling", so you already have to have resources to monitor that. Those same resources can monitor windshield cleaning with virtually zero extra effort.

If more things are allowed, chances are each hot-pit stop will get longer. Longer stops = more overlapping stops = more teams to monitor at any given time.

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

What have I done?

:-(

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

Spank wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

Which drives the question, why are they even stickers? At first I just assumed they had extra 1/4 sheet sticker blanks they had to get rid of.

Now in 2018 I wonder did they get that many sticker blanks? Wouldn’t it be cheaper to just use 24 pound paper at this point?

Maybe because some idiot might try to, oh, I dunno, build two identical cars and swap the tech sticker from one car to the next to limit their pit stop times during a 24 hour race...

I'm pretty sure someone would notice that Smokey Yunick shit. God knows we police each other's tires well enough. And if you were going to do that, you'd just print a duplicate label.



As to the "what happens in the hot pit stays in the hot pit" stuff, I hate the damned hot pit with a passion. Sure, you get to feel all Pro Racer Fast Boi, but the hell with that noise. I've always avoided it when paddock fueling is permitted.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

EyeMWing wrote:
Spank wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

Which drives the question, why are they even stickers? At first I just assumed they had extra 1/4 sheet sticker blanks they had to get rid of.

Now in 2018 I wonder did they get that many sticker blanks? Wouldn’t it be cheaper to just use 24 pound paper at this point?

Maybe because some idiot might try to, oh, I dunno, build two identical cars and swap the tech sticker from one car to the next to limit their pit stop times during a 24 hour race...

I'm pretty sure someone would notice that Smokey Yunick shit. God knows we police each other's tires well enough. And if you were going to do that, you'd just print a duplicate label.
.

Psst, buddy.  It's been done.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKc11BRgh-4&t=3m20s

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita" 
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)
1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless)
1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites) (Sold -> Houston.  Gone and forgotten)

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

OnkelUdo wrote:
aventari wrote:

Sorry if I missed it, but whats the reason for disallowing window washing in hot pits?

It leads to much greater sins (and I don't mean dancing).

Don't forget guy in a full fire suit chasing a roll of unraveling paper towels across the hot pit lane without looking where they're going.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

VKZ24 wrote:

Let's be honest, a lot of Lemons "policing" is arbitrary at best, and they don't want to pay for more police either, so there's that.

This and This! Be glad they allow Hot Pitting at all anywhere. It's a real PITA. Professionals Screw it up regularly enough, and they KNOW what they're doing.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: The unofficial Suggestions box:

Troy wrote:

Somehow other organizations running less than 100 cars can afford the necessary staff.

I mean, I can just leave this without having to say anything right? If you look at it for a bit it's probably pretty obvious to see the problem here?

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.