Topic: Brakes

And yet another dumb question but here it goes. What are the (best?) over the counter brake pads for drum brakes? I'm considering adding a dual reservoir master cylinder plus a vacuum booster to this project for safety. I understand that it will inevitably need some type of cooling ducts added to make it keep from exploding or at the least catching on fire, any advice for keeping drum brakes alive?

2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA), 2013 Spring CMP, 53rd, 2013 Fall CMP 44th, 2014 Barber 14th, 2014 CMP 46th, 2015 CMP 57th, 2015 CMP 80th, 2016 CMP 16th, 3rd in B class, Winner Judges choice, and First car under 2.0 liter Alex's lemon aide stand winner. 2017 WRL, Road Atlanta 43rd, 2017 NCM 9th O/A , 1st in B class, 2018 CMP 13th O/A 3rd in Class B

2 (edited by RobL 2018-12-21 09:52 AM)

Re: Brakes

Don't use them. 

Drum brakes use reverse to adjust themselves as the pad wears away.  This is needed as one of three things eventually happen, all of which cause you to lose brakes.  First is that the top of the shoes at the cylinder go metal on metal as the bottom, where the adjuster is, doesn't adjust out and you get uneven pad wear.  Second is that the cylinder falls apart for the same reason - bottom of the brakes don't adjust and the top compensates until the cylinder pistons fall out or leaks.  Third is that the cylinder no longer pushes the piston out enough to engage the shoes to the drum.

We had drums on the rear of our '89 mustang - they stop working after the first stint.  I've raced the '56 crown vic and saw the first problem starting to happen.  We were aware of the problem to start, so we were very gentle on the brakes the whole race and so were very far from catching them on fire.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

3 (edited by Spank 2018-12-21 10:12 AM)

Re: Brakes

Are we talking front drums or rear drums?

If Front Drums and your car has any heft and/or speed, I'd recommend finding a front disc replacement. Rear drums? meh. no biggie. You can have porterfield make you some shoes if you really think you need them.

Sounds like you are going to completely change the factory braking setup starting at the master cylinder but are going to keep the drums... GLWT

I think racing semi trucks still use (used?) drum brakes and have water squirters on them. https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=17179

Re: Brakes

Spank wrote:

Are we talking front drums or rear drums?

If Front Drums and your car has any heft and/or speed, I'd recommend finding a front disc replacement. Rear drums? meh. no biggie. You can have porterfield make you some shoes if you really think you need them.

Sounds like you are going to completely change the factory braking setup starting at the master cylinder but are going to keep the drums... GLWT

I think racing semi trucks still use (used?) drum brakes and have water squirters on them. https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=17179


It's 4 wheel drum brakes and I'd like to keep the car in class C so I was thinking a disc brake setup might move me up in class even though it's an old car. I don't want to jeopardize that.

2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA), 2013 Spring CMP, 53rd, 2013 Fall CMP 44th, 2014 Barber 14th, 2014 CMP 46th, 2015 CMP 57th, 2015 CMP 80th, 2016 CMP 16th, 3rd in B class, Winner Judges choice, and First car under 2.0 liter Alex's lemon aide stand winner. 2017 WRL, Road Atlanta 43rd, 2017 NCM 9th O/A , 1st in B class, 2018 CMP 13th O/A 3rd in Class B

Re: Brakes

Brakes are open and I seriously doubt disks will move you up to B.  If the car is that marginal a C/B car then it's fast enough that it should have disks anyway

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita" 
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)
1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless)
1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites) (Sold -> Houston.  Gone and forgotten)

Re: Brakes

cheseroo wrote:

Brakes are open and I seriously doubt disks will move you up to B.  If the car is that marginal a C/B car then it's fast enough that it should have disks anyway


Plans are to drop a SBC engine with a 3 speed auto in it, I know Phil has kind of a soft spot for Chevy powered iron.

2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA), 2013 Spring CMP, 53rd, 2013 Fall CMP 44th, 2014 Barber 14th, 2014 CMP 46th, 2015 CMP 57th, 2015 CMP 80th, 2016 CMP 16th, 3rd in B class, Winner Judges choice, and First car under 2.0 liter Alex's lemon aide stand winner. 2017 WRL, Road Atlanta 43rd, 2017 NCM 9th O/A , 1st in B class, 2018 CMP 13th O/A 3rd in Class B

Re: Brakes

cheseroo wrote:

Brakes are open and I seriously doubt disks will move you up to B.  If the car is that marginal a C/B car then it's fast enough that it should have disks anyway


Plans are to drop a SBC engine with a 3 speed auto in it, I know Phil has kind of a soft spot for Chevy powered iron.

2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA), 2013 Spring CMP, 53rd, 2013 Fall CMP 44th, 2014 Barber 14th, 2014 CMP 46th, 2015 CMP 57th, 2015 CMP 80th, 2016 CMP 16th, 3rd in B class, Winner Judges choice, and First car under 2.0 liter Alex's lemon aide stand winner. 2017 WRL, Road Atlanta 43rd, 2017 NCM 9th O/A , 1st in B class, 2018 CMP 13th O/A 3rd in Class B

Re: Brakes

RobL wrote:

Don't use them. 

Drum brakes use reverse to adjust themselves as the pad wears away.  This is needed as one of three things eventually happen, all of which cause you to lose brakes.  First is that the top of the shoes at the cylinder go metal on metal as the bottom, where the adjuster is, doesn't adjust out and you get uneven pad wear.  Second is that the cylinder falls apart for the same reason - bottom of the brakes don't adjust and the top compensates until the cylinder pistons fall out or leaks.  Third is that the cylinder no longer pushes the piston out enough to engage the shoes to the drum.

We had drums on the rear of our '89 mustang - they stop working after the first stint.  I've raced the '56 crown vic and saw the first problem starting to happen.  We were aware of the problem to start, so we were very gentle on the brakes the whole race and so were very far from catching them on fire.


So the trick is to overshoot your pit box and then back up slowly while pumping the brakes?  I jest

2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA), 2013 Spring CMP, 53rd, 2013 Fall CMP 44th, 2014 Barber 14th, 2014 CMP 46th, 2015 CMP 57th, 2015 CMP 80th, 2016 CMP 16th, 3rd in B class, Winner Judges choice, and First car under 2.0 liter Alex's lemon aide stand winner. 2017 WRL, Road Atlanta 43rd, 2017 NCM 9th O/A , 1st in B class, 2018 CMP 13th O/A 3rd in Class B

Re: Brakes

cheseroo wrote:

Brakes are open and I seriously doubt disks will move you up to B.  If the car is that marginal a C/B car then it's fast enough that it should have disks anyway

We put Impreza discs on the Corvair, not an eye batted. Why Impreza? #becauselayingaround

'18 PNW-Organizer's Choice '17 PNW-IOE '15 PNW-Judge's Choice '14 PNW-Heroic Fix
Jagvair 2.0 Build   Jagvair YouTube  Jagvair Facebook

Re: Brakes

steve wrote:

So the trick is to overshoot your pit box and then back up slowly while pumping the brakes?  I jest

I know you are joking, but in almost all racing organizations, it is a rules/safety violation to reverse the car in pit lane.  It has to be pushed.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

11 (edited by Spank 2018-12-21 01:49 PM)

Re: Brakes

RobL wrote:
steve wrote:

So the trick is to overshoot your pit box and then back up slowly while pumping the brakes?  I jest

I know you are joking, but in almost all racing organizations, it is a rules/safety violation to reverse the car in pit lane.  It has to be pushed.

Not this one.

EDIT: Sorry-- smart assed post.  Technically it isn't written in the rules but I'm sure you're right, RobL and it is a no-brainer and probably a universal track-enforced thing.  I'll try to use better judgement before posting again.

Re: Brakes

Spank wrote:
RobL wrote:
steve wrote:

So the trick is to overshoot your pit box and then back up slowly while pumping the brakes?  I jest

I know you are joking, but in almost all racing organizations, it is a rules/safety violation to reverse the car in pit lane.  It has to be pushed.

Not this one.


CMP you could probably exit the track, fuel at the gas pump and back the car up while tapping the brakes to just before getting back on pit road then turn it around and head back out. And realistically not lose a lot of time.  Hmmmmmmmmm

And yes I was joking about backing up on pit road, or was I ?????

2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA), 2013 Spring CMP, 53rd, 2013 Fall CMP 44th, 2014 Barber 14th, 2014 CMP 46th, 2015 CMP 57th, 2015 CMP 80th, 2016 CMP 16th, 3rd in B class, Winner Judges choice, and First car under 2.0 liter Alex's lemon aide stand winner. 2017 WRL, Road Atlanta 43rd, 2017 NCM 9th O/A , 1st in B class, 2018 CMP 13th O/A 3rd in Class B

Re: Brakes

We ran rear drums for a while, just had to adjust after each day racing to get the pedal all the way back.
Swapped to discs mostly to reduce weight, no real change in performance, just one less thing to do at night.

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
16x Loser with the Celica. 5 times loser in other fine machines

Re: Brakes

steve wrote:

CMP you could probably exit the track, fuel at the gas pump and back the car up while tapping the brakes to just before getting back on pit road then turn it around and head back out. And realistically not lose a lot of time.  Hmmmmmmmmm

And yes I was joking about backing up on pit road, or was I ?????

I won't say what series (Not Lemons) or what track, but on one occasion the unnamed track off Lerdo Road was configured such that cars came off track after the timing / scoring loop and when one was to go back out on track it was supposed to be further down pit lane. However, nobody was guarding an earlier entrance to pit lane that would allow one to go across the timing/scoring loop once again before starting the out lap. With a skeleton crew in the dark hours of a 24hr event, a 998cc 1962 mini may have set some blazingly fast lap times.

Re: Brakes

Spank wrote:
RobL wrote:

I know you are joking, but in almost all racing organizations, it is a rules/safety violation to reverse the car in pit lane.  It has to be pushed.

Not this one.

EDIT: Sorry-- smart assed post.  Technically it isn't written in the rules but I'm sure you're right, RobL and it is a no-brainer and probably a universal track-enforced thing.  I'll try to use better judgement before posting again.

I don't care about smart assed replys (did someone else say something that is now deleted?).  To me, this is a safety thing.  I really don't want to get hit while fueling my car in a crowded pit lane because some driver backed into me/my car.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Brakes

RobL wrote:

I don't care about smart assed replys (did someone else say something that is now deleted?).  To me, this is a safety thing.  I really don't want to get hit while fueling my car in a crowded pit lane because some driver backed into me/my car.


No, I just saw my own post when Steve quoted it and I though, "Wow, Spank's a dick." Not who I want to be (most of the time). Didn't seem right to delete it especially since it was quoted, so I just kept it there to remind me of my shame and edit to apologize.

Re: Brakes

steve wrote:
Spank wrote:

Are we talking front drums or rear drums?

If Front Drums and your car has any heft and/or speed, I'd recommend finding a front disc replacement. Rear drums? meh. no biggie. You can have porterfield make you some shoes if you really think you need them.

Sounds like you are going to completely change the factory braking setup starting at the master cylinder but are going to keep the drums... GLWT

I think racing semi trucks still use (used?) drum brakes and have water squirters on them. https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=17179


It's 4 wheel drum brakes and I'd like to keep the car in class C so I was thinking a disc brake setup might move me up in class even though it's an old car. I don't want to jeopardize that.

It won't.  Voice of recent experience.  We did the 1947 Plymouth as Front disc as I will not race a car with front drums...they never even noticed.

Re: Brakes

You back the car off the trailer, you back it out of your paddock spot, maybe you even drive it to the track... if you're burning so much rear shoe material during a race session that you need to adjust the rears to bring the pedal back up, then yeah, spend some money and have some shoes made up with better material. Personally, I've never had an issue with parts-store shoes on rear drums (once I learned how to properly set up the self-adjuster hardware, that is). This is on a Class C/B car with a good front disc setup, so your mileage may vary.

Front discs are not going to affect your classing and are a very good conversion if you're actually pushing the car to be fast. The SBC might be a different story.

Command Pilot/Flight Director, Escape Velocity Racing
Index of Effluency, Heroic Fix, Class C Trophy, now hopelessly gunning for Class B.
Currently 1-2 vs. Team Fairlylame in the Class of 1964 Championships

Re: Brakes

I found a 4 wheel disc conversion kit for less then $500 but will need to find out if it is 4 or 5 lug, since my old beater is just 4 lug. I also have a massive set of calipers from my son in laws 68 Firebird. The Rotors are so large that the 17" rims we bought for his car wouldn't go over the calipers. I just don't want to much brake to overpower the tires too. Gotta have a balance. The only experience that I have had with drum brakes was my old 96 civic on the rear. It made it one race at CMP and when I got it home the linings were gone. I have checked with carbotech and they will reline my old shoes if I decide to keep the drum brakes.

2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA), 2013 Spring CMP, 53rd, 2013 Fall CMP 44th, 2014 Barber 14th, 2014 CMP 46th, 2015 CMP 57th, 2015 CMP 80th, 2016 CMP 16th, 3rd in B class, Winner Judges choice, and First car under 2.0 liter Alex's lemon aide stand winner. 2017 WRL, Road Atlanta 43rd, 2017 NCM 9th O/A , 1st in B class, 2018 CMP 13th O/A 3rd in Class B

Re: Brakes

my VW Fox had drum rears In 15 races on the car we replaced them once and TBH they didn't really need replacing.  And yes they did work, in fact they had new lines, proportioning valve, etc.  It really depends on the car and how its set up.

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 21x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
Click here to "Like" us on Facebook   Click here for our Youtube Videos
Lifetime Achievement (of hoplessness) Award Winners

Re: Brakes

RogueLeader wrote:

my VW Fox had drum rears In 15 races on the car we replaced them once and TBH they didn't really need replacing.  And yes they did work, in fact they had new lines, proportioning valve, etc.  It really depends on the car and how its set up.


So any recommendations for the rear pads then? I think i'll take the advice and do a disc brake conversion for the front but keep the rear drums for now?

2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA), 2013 Spring CMP, 53rd, 2013 Fall CMP 44th, 2014 Barber 14th, 2014 CMP 46th, 2015 CMP 57th, 2015 CMP 80th, 2016 CMP 16th, 3rd in B class, Winner Judges choice, and First car under 2.0 liter Alex's lemon aide stand winner. 2017 WRL, Road Atlanta 43rd, 2017 NCM 9th O/A , 1st in B class, 2018 CMP 13th O/A 3rd in Class B

Re: Brakes

My 72 valiant had drums on the rear. We sent clean cores to the old guy running carbotech and he put on a good compound for us for about $175/axle. They worked great, but were not nearly good enough to match the 12" 1975 Chrysler Newport brakes we had on the front. Had Carbotech XP 8s on those and that was way to much brake. We should have down graded to a less racy pad, but we didn't. That set up lasted us probably 7-9 races.
So good shoes can be a great investment and do work.

Dudes Ex Machina: https://www.facebook.com/dudesexmachina

?Everyone who has ever built anywhere a 'new heaven' first found the power thereto in his own hell- Frederick Nietzsche

Re: Brakes

If it's a GM car, I would recommend swapping to 70's intermediate calipers and rotors up front, they make brackets for cheap to put that on just about anything. Couple that with a C3 corvette manual brake master, early 90's C1500 junkyard prop valve, stock drums in the back and have decent brakes for dirt cheap. I put that setup on my 66 caprice and absolutely love the brakes in that car. Great feedback, stops quick and straight. They aren't the biggest rotors, so you could probably get them to fade on a heavy car on a track if you're hard enough on them but they'll be worlds better than drums. I don't even leave my driveway with a single circuit brake system, I wouldn't dare try to take one on track. I've blown too many brake lines/wheel cylinders driving hoopties with dual circuit brakes, I don't want to know what it's like with a single circuit system.

Re: Brakes

We ran rear drum brakes on our ranger with over the counter pads for two races without any issue.  They did not do much of the stopping. The fronts on the other hand went through 1-2 sets of pads per day, and on the second race completely failed.  After that we converted the rear to disc, and bought st43 pads from porterfield. After 3 races they were barely worn.

We learned the hard way, don't skimp on brakes.  Its not something you want to worry about in the middle of a race. If I were in your situation, I would go to porterfield and see if you can get your shoes lined with the st43 compound.

1998 Ford Ranger 4.0 High Output
Organizers Choice Award Thompson Motor Speedway 2017
Class C Winners NHMS 2018
Hit'em With the Hein

Re: Brakes

Have any of you guys done a front disc conversion on an early model chevy 2? and I mean junkyard conversion, if so what parts do I need?

2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA), 2013 Spring CMP, 53rd, 2013 Fall CMP 44th, 2014 Barber 14th, 2014 CMP 46th, 2015 CMP 57th, 2015 CMP 80th, 2016 CMP 16th, 3rd in B class, Winner Judges choice, and First car under 2.0 liter Alex's lemon aide stand winner. 2017 WRL, Road Atlanta 43rd, 2017 NCM 9th O/A , 1st in B class, 2018 CMP 13th O/A 3rd in Class B