• From: NH
  • Registered: 2010-01-20
  • Posts: 3,299

Topic: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

We're installing our system this week, and I have seen a LOT of varying opinions on nozzle location and numbers. Looking for rational for the various opinions. We have a 4L system with 4 nozzles. The car is a wagon with the FIA cert'd cell exposed to the inside of the car. Obviously 1 nozzle will go in the engine bay pointed at the fuel rail/hoses, 1 on the driver, 1 on the cell, and the 4th? I haven't decided between driver and engine bay.

So rational on where to double up with nozzles? One school of thought is that the system is only there to give you the time to get out, so focus on the driver. The other is focus on the areas where a fire is more likely to control it's growth while you bail. I'm not sure which I prefer.


On the nozzles for the driver, where you you prefer to put them? I've heard pointed down from behind over a shoulder, or pointed right at them from the dash. I do know I do not want them aimed at my face.


Last opinion question, preference on where to put the external pull handle?I would love to put it on the C-pillar as it's nice and large on our car, but doing so requires cutting through the internal structural skin, something I do not want to do. I can put it further back and just below the windows looking into the trunk, I think it'd be high enough to not be a crash risk. Either way I'd recess them into the body so it's all flush with the outer surface. But looking to see if there's other schools of thought on placement.

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  • From: Newport News, VA
  • Registered: 2015-12-23
  • Posts: 620

Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

Rtfm. On mine, there were directions, and none of them mentioned the fuel cell.

They did say that it had to be installed per directions to maintain the certification.

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3 Reply by TheEngineer (edited by TheEngineer 2019-03-12 04:42 AM)

  • From: NH
  • Registered: 2010-01-20
  • Posts: 3,299

Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

That was very helpful, thank you.


The instructions do not lay out a lot of what I asked. They basically say "install to your organization's rules." And the lemon's rulebook says " covering the driver compartment, engine compartment, and fuel storage area." All of which is amazingly specific and helpful.

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4 Reply by TheEngineer (edited by TheEngineer 2019-03-12 05:00 AM)

  • From: NH
  • Registered: 2010-01-20
  • Posts: 3,299

Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

This is a direct copy and paste of the nozzle section of the instructions I received. Note that when talking about the driver nozzles, the illustrations show a car with two seats, so when they say "must have 2 nozzles", they're saying 1 per seat. I could go that route, just in case something goes wrong on a test day. But I'm not sure that's the best answer.

You'll notice that the two locations the instructions mention for mounting the driver nozzles, are the same two I outlined in the first post. I'm looking for opinions on each on why one might be better in some situations.

A.F.F.F. NOZZLES
It is important that all of the nozzles provided in the fire system kit are used.

The nozzles will produce a fine atomized spray with the AFFF emerging as a milky white foam substance, which forms a film barrier starving the fire of oxygen. This foam spray has the capability of excellent fire out times and has a cooling effect, which can control re-ignition. When locating the nozzles it should be noted that there is a 90° cone with a 1/2 meter spray.

Nozzles should not simply be supported by their own pipe work. Where necessary support the nozzle in a bracket. Nozzles should be checked for damage/possible blockage. They should also be tested to ensure that they are in good working order.

Depending on the class of racing/rallying,(which is the competitors responsibility) e.g. International rallying, which needs a 4It system, the engine bay must have 2 nozzles installed, with one each side of the motor and 2 nozzles installed in the cockpit.

For open cars, the system must include two nozzles one should be aimed at the drivers midriff with special care being taken not to spray into the drivers face.

For saloon /closed cars 2 nozzles must be fitted within the cockpit area. Nozzles should be fitted either to the top of the roll bar main hoop (door B pillar) pointing inwards and downwards towards the foot of the diagonally opposite front roll bar hoop base (door A post) or either under the dashboard aiming at the drivers midriff.

These are guide lines for competitors using SPA Design fire suppression systems

IF IN DOUBT, ASK!!!

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Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

On ours, I have two in the engine compartment with the nozzles directed at the fuel rail.  I have two in the driver's compartment with the nozzles pointed just about the waist line.

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6 Reply by stangman4ever (edited by stangman4ever 2019-03-12 11:59 AM)

  • From: Indiana
  • Registered: 2017-09-15
  • Posts: 148

Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

on the Celica we did:

1 on the firewall on the fuel side, 1 on dash angled at the drivers crotch/torso, and one at the rear bulkhead on the fuel cell. external pull is directly behind the driver seat/rear hook coming out of the quarter window.

the other 2 cars:

we will do the same set up on Fast Waggy as the Celica. We will run 2 on the driver in the HHR and 1 or 2 in the engine bay since this will not have a cell.

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  • From: Apex, NC
  • Registered: 2016-01-12
  • Posts: 64

Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

Our SPA AFFF system came with a diagram that illustrated where to put the nozzles in the cabin at least.  I tried, but was unable to get the user manual to download from their product page to find this diagram. 

I'll check the manual when I get home from work and upload a picture, but from what I recall, the nozzles in the cabin are supposed to be located along the upper corners of the main loop and pointed toward the bottom of the opposite front down stay, at least according to the manual that came in the package with our SPA system.

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  • From: NH
  • Registered: 2010-01-20
  • Posts: 3,299

Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

GoFastEnthusiast wrote:

Our SPA AFFF system came with a diagram that illustrated where to put the nozzles in the cabin at least.  I tried, but was unable to get the user manual to download from their product page to find this diagram. 

I'll check the manual when I get home from work and upload a picture, but from what I recall, the nozzles in the cabin are supposed to be located along the upper corners of the main loop and pointed toward the bottom of the opposite front down stay, at least according to the manual that came in the package with our SPA system.

I quoted the SPA manual, I know the diagram you're mentioning. But they say either up on the main hoop spraying down over the driver shoulder, or under the dash aimed at the torso. I'm looking for advantages/disadvantages to each so we can pick.

You can download the manual from here https://www.fia.com/file/64885/download?token=XIr4AgvN

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  • From: Newport News, VA
  • Registered: 2015-12-23
  • Posts: 620

Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

Nick artfully hid the nozzles under the hood of the Borgward, but you can see the two nozzles pointed at the driver in the interior shots.

One is next to the handle, and the other is a little more inboard.

Under the hood, one to each side of the engine.

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https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=37503

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  • From: Tustin, CA
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 3,275

Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

Not in favor of the over the shoulder nozzle.  Fire burns upward and you need your feet/legs to get out plus fire is likely to be coming up from the floorboards.  I'd protect them first.

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  • From: San Diego
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Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

Have you thought about only running 3 nozzles? The more nozzles you put, the quicker the system will expend itself, so it seems if you have everything you want covered, just leave it at that and enjoy the extra extinguishing time you'll have.


Also I saw this somewhere else here-- the foam will be slippery as hell when it shoots all over the passenger cabin so put some grip tape down on the drivers floor so he can push himself out if needs be and he won't just be scrambling and slipping and flailing around while alight.

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Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

We built a couple of brackets and mounted one nozzle on the trans tunnel, maybe 8" in front of the shifter and perpendicular to the tunnel, so it will cover the lower half of the drivers legs and firewall.  The other is mounted on the tunnel about even with the drivers seatback. and points at an angle so it will spray across the lap and down the legs.  Also will cover the shifter in case flames decide to come up around the boot, etc.  Also important to remember that these things spray in a cone pattern so you want them mounted up off any horizontal surface.

BTW, we know nothing about anything.  This is just what made sense to us.  We figured flames reaching the torso originate from some point lower, so why waste retardant up top.  Happy to hear people shout me down.  Well, not happy, exactly.  Willing, perhaps.

  • Registered: 2013-08-12
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Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

aventari wrote:

Have you thought about only running 3 nozzles? The more nozzles you put, the quicker the system will expend itself, so it seems if you have everything you want covered, just leave it at that and enjoy the extra extinguishing time you'll have.


Also I saw this somewhere else here-- the foam will be slippery as hell when it shoots all over the passenger cabin so put some grip tape down on the drivers floor so he can push himself out if needs be and he won't just be scrambling and slipping and flailing around while alight.

The instructions explicitly say that all nozzles need to be installed for the system to work correctly.

  • Registered: 2014-11-11
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Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

The instructions that came with our system specified the spray angle and an effective range, I think it was about 90 degrees and only two feet and change.  In other words the foam coming from the nozzle would spray in a cone shape the outside of the cone would be about 45deg from the center line of the nozzle.  So I made a cardboard template to help me visualize where the foam would spray based on any particular nozzle location.  It was really quite useful. If I hadn't done that I probably would have had a nozzle spaying foam in our face, which would be bad.  I also took a string the length of the range and used it to see if the foam would be able to reach the whole fuel rail area.  I learned that a second nozzle in the engine compartment is really needed if you want to realistically control a fire in there.

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Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

TheEngineer wrote:

And the lemon's rulebook says " covering the driver compartment, engine compartment, and fuel storage area."

That's not what the rulebook says.  The rulebook says this:

"Minimum acceptable is a 5-lb system covering the driver compartment and engine compartment.
Highly preferred is a 10-lb system covering the driver compartment, engine compartment, and fuel storage area."

Technically, you don't need something covering the fuel cell or tank.  But my feeling is that it's only a matter of time.

That said, you don't need to use all of the nozzles provided.  Our kit came with 6 (we got a 10 lb system, again, assuming that at some point we'll need to cover the fuel cell area).  For our first race we just ran 2 lines, one into the engine compartment, the other pointing at the drivers crotch.  I was advised to not point anything at or over the drivers head, as you don't want to impede visibility.  Before our next race we will plumb a 3rd nozzle to the fuel cell.

bs

  • From: NH
  • Registered: 2010-01-20
  • Posts: 3,299

Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

I'm installing one on the fuel cell. Again, our cell is exposed to the driver area in our wagon. We use an inline fuel pump that is mounted below the floor of the car, but there is still an opening. I want something pointed at that should something ever happen.

I think I'm settled on 1 engine bay, 1 fuel cell, 2 driver. I'll put one tucked in the door bars aimed to spray over the driver's legs towards the firewall, and one from the dash covering the torso area. The one in the engine bay will spray basically between the firewall and engine to cover the fuel rail and lines. I can always move the lines in the future if a better method is found.


We got the bottle mounted tonight, and the bulkhead fitting through the firewall. need to mount the pull handles next.

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  • From: Seacoast NH
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Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

1 fuel cell
1 engine
1 driver
1 passenger (if you have pass seat)(2 on engine if no pass)

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  • From: Westminster MA
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Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

Not familiar with the engine setup but the saab is turbo.  If you fuel rail is nowhere near the manifold i might aim one there.  our golf threw a rod and the manifold caught the oil on fire almost burning the car down.  we had a handheld and the safety at Atlanta are top notch and saved it.

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  • From: San Diego
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Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

^^^ yeah I don't know if it was mentioned, but keep the hand held even with the automatic suppression system.

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  • From: NH
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Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

Hand held isn't going anywhere. We have a 5lb in the car.

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Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

aventari wrote:

^^^ yeah I don't know if it was mentioned, but keep the hand held even with the automatic suppression system.

That is our plan as well. A small fire can be handled by the little extinguisher.

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22 Reply by Team Infinniti (edited by Team Infinniti 2019-03-14 12:02 PM)

  • From: WPB Fl.
  • Registered: 2010-10-27
  • Posts: 1,571

Re: Fire Suppression Nozzle Placement

Good decision

As someone that had a blazing inferno engine/gas/electrical fire after a concussion type of crash, slather the driver in as many spare nozzles as possible, the rationale, erff the car, its already written off, what if the fuel has sprayed ON the driver, otherwise fire takes time to propagate.. Slippery? Fuel or oil in the cockpit are slippery as well, no amount of foam on the cell or engine matters, safety crews are always near, give the driver every opportunity, get him wet, every second counts.

The Certified Cell itself is not what is going to burn, it will be fittings/lines/pumps or the hole in the bottom of your engine block, all likely outside the reach of suppressant.

In my case, the fire slightly breached the lexan before crews got control, I was long outside the car already receiving medical.

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