Topic: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

Great times at the track with all.  Hopefully our #28 Prelude/team did not do anything unprofessional...I think I have a fairly good team, but we all make mistakes..

But this seemed like a bit too aggressive by 909 Miata (at approx. 1:45)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfa7aue … e=youtu.be

Otherwise, there is also some footage of #59 BMW spin, #239(?car) mowing lawns, etc.

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Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

Wouldn't call that overly aggressive, just two cars that didn't predict the other. Miata went for the inside line, TR turned in on them. You could say the TR should have checked mirrors just as much as  you could say the Miata should have left a contingency if the TR turned in on them.

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Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

I would agree... Miata was overly optimistic with sticking his nose in there

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

I would agree... Miata was overly optimistic with sticking his nose in there

My guess is he probably thought could sneak around. Based on the angle of the cars and the corner, its possible the TR7 never saw the Miata. Just a learning experience for both cars.

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Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

I would agree... Miata was overly optimistic with sticking his nose in there

+1.  Totally the Miata's fault IMO since he was assuming (a BIG assumption) the TR7 would give him the apex.

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Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

That's the kind of stuff that happens in multi-class racing.  Yes, the Miata assumed that the TR7 would yield the corner.  But the TR7 should have seen the Miata and yielded the corner (as happens in multi-class racing) especially after just getting passed by another car as passes tend to happen in groups.  I'm going to say that 95% of the contact at a Lemons race is going to be of this sort.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

7 (edited by El_Macho 2019-04-18 08:54 AM)

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

The Miata is the ostensibly passing car and has the obligation to make a clean pass. The Miata was also going too fast to turn in on the inside in any event. It shouldn't have been surprising to the Miata driver that the slower car was going to navigate the turn, and that the slower car may not have seen her/him considering the closing speeds and traffic.

Could the Triumph have not turned down as much and left more room? Possibly, but he/she was still 1 car width off the non-curb apex, 1.5 widths off the curb apex. Was the Triumph obligated to do so? Not at all.

Judgment: Miata driver wholly at fault.

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

Miata was totally at fault. It's always the car that is passing to get it done cleanly. Scary that others place any blame on the TR7.  The Miata should've considered that they were not seen by the TR7 due to the traffic.  Overly aggressive move.

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Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

I don't think it's blaming the TR7 as much as not exonerating them completely.   The Miata holds the lion's share of the responsibility here being the faster car, in a passing situation, with two eyes focused forward vs 2 glancing back through a mirror.  It's multi class wheel to wheel racing.  The responsibility for safety falls into everyone's hands equally.

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Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

Nope.. not TR7’s fault at all.  He glances at mirrors, no one is close to him, he starts to turn in (still leaving a shit ton of room) and the Miata is waaaaaay optimistic that the sea is going to part for him. In fact, if you said the goal of the Miata driver was to pit maneuver the TR7, I would believe you.  The Miata didn’t even slow enough to keep a line to the inside of the TR7 had the TR7 even gave more room. 

So... the whole... “it’s everybody’s responsibility” concept is the right idea prior to anything happening, but there are definitely times it’s 100% the other dude’s fault.  To me, this is one.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

11 (edited by derekste 2019-04-19 07:25 AM)

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

is that the miata that's for sale for $6500?

edit: it does not appear to be. that would have been too funny.

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Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

RobL wrote:

That's the kind of stuff that happens in multi-class racing.  Yes, the Miata assumed that the TR7 would yield the corner.  But the TR7 should have seen the Miata and yielded the corner (as happens in multi-class racing)

lolwut?

"THE WONDERMENT CONSORTIUM"
Everything dies baby that's a fact,
But maybe everything that dies someday comes back?

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

Hey MZAVARIN is your car the yellow and blue prelude?

If so it spend most of Sunday morning in my mirror and finally passed me then I passed it back, we were very evenly paced in the wet.

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14 (edited by MZAVARIN 2019-04-19 06:19 PM)

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

There were 2, count them, TWO, Preludes!....getting rarer, but recently there was a race with 4 of them.
We had the yellow and black

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/003008623257/media/103158208678/large/1491185566/enhance

This one?
We really lost a lot of rubber on Saturday, and had to chill our driving on Sunday due to lack of traction (and visibility....plexiglass/Lexan does not seem to do well in wet weather...)
But still had a great time.  Seems to me NJ was a bit easier to drive in the rain....
But we had fun with many different cars, and seems the driving, in general, was very good.  Some more professional, some more amateur, but decent overall.

MikeZ

MarioKart Driving School: 1987 Honda Prelude Si (Opus #28) 
Loudon, NH 2014 - Millville, NJ, Lightening 2019 (RIP)
New and improved: 1987 Honda Prelude Si (Opus #11) Pittsburgh, PA 2021 - ??
and finally won something, Class C Win: Loudon, NH 2022

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

MZAVARIN wrote:

There were 2, count them, TWO, Preludes!....getting rarer, but recently there was a race with 4 of them.
We had the yellow and black


This one?
We really lost a lot of rubber on Saturday, and had to chill our driving on Sunday due to lack of traction (and visibility....plexiglass/Lexan does not seem to do well in wet weather...)
But still had a great time.  Seems to me NJ was a bit easier to drive in the rain....
But we had fun with many different cars, and seems the driving, in general, was very good.  Some more professional, some more amateur, but decent overall.

MikeZ

No it was the Yellow and Blue, I think it was a prelude maybe number 20.
I found the track awesome in the rain compared with the likes of Joliet and Gingerman but I'm gutted I didn't get any dry laps it seems like it would be super fun track to drive aggressively.

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Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
24x Loser with the Celica. 16x loser in other fine machines
Overall winner Gingerman 2019

16 (edited by RobL 2019-04-19 07:03 PM)

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

derekste wrote:
RobL wrote:

That's the kind of stuff that happens in multi-class racing.  Yes, the Miata assumed that the TR7 would yield the corner.  But the TR7 should have seen the Miata and yielded the corner (as happens in multi-class racing)

lolwut?

One of the problems on this forum is that we all drive the same way on track and then tend to describe it differently. 

https://youtu.be/UsDJYyI0_XA

Should I have closed the door on the purple/pink car and driven the race line?  If I then would have hit them, would they have been at fault, or me?

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

Looks like the red 239? Was already coming in fast and got distracted by the minivans smoke screen at the wrong time. Every time they hit that turn it was the same for me too.

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

As a driver that is on a team that makes 3000 passes per race, I don’t care if you choose to stay wide and give me room or if you race the racing line.  Either way, I’m expecting you to give me the “body language” that you are staying wide and then crash the apex (meaning, do the worst possible thing).   If I hit you, as I’m trying to pass you, it is 100% on me.  If I’m already past you and you turn down in to me, then it’s stupid that I trusted you, and it’s both our faults.

I agree we are all probably thinking similar thoughts, but I don’t want a less experienced driver who drives a faster car to read anything on here and think they should expect or “deserve” people to part the sea for them.  The faster car may be in 35th place not really racing for anything and the slower car may be in 12th and 2nd in class B trying to make up time.  Just because the car is slower doesn’t mean he/she has to slow their own pace. 

RobL wrote:
derekste wrote:
RobL wrote:

That's the kind of stuff that happens in multi-class racing.  Yes, the Miata assumed that the TR7 would yield the corner.  But the TR7 should have seen the Miata and yielded the corner (as happens in multi-class racing)

lolwut?

One of the problems on this forum is that we all drive the same way on track and then tend to describe it differently. 

https://youtu.be/UsDJYyI0_XA

Should I have closed the door on the purple/pink car and driven the race line?  If I then would have hit them, would they have been at fault, or me?

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

regardless of what should or should not be the norm, the reality is that people pull moves like this all the time. Should the Miata have chilled a second and gone for the pass after that corner? Maybe. Did they appear to come in a little hot? maybe. But I know if I was in the TR I would have done more than glance in the mirrors, especially since someone had just come through the inside, and when one person does that, usually there is a follower.

opinions seem to differ based on where you fall in the speed spectrum. When you start out in a terrible slow car you learn to drive off line more and make way all the time for cars that do expect you to get out of their way. Even though we drive a quicker car now (quicker, not A class fast), I still drive in my mirrors, and if I think there's any chance someone is going to pull a move like that I leave a lane.

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Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

That miata had absolutely no excuse to try that pass. Even if the TR7 had seen him coming up, he closed from way back and dive bombed the apex in a way that the TR7 could not have expected. The onus is 100% on the driver making the pass to make it clean. It's courteous to leave a lane for a faster car, but every driver is racing and has a right to the track. This is a textbook example of an incredibly dangerous and irresponsible divebomb.

Even if you take responsibility out of it, this sort of driving is downright stupid. With that closing speed, the likelihood of somebody not yielding the lane at some point in a 14 hour race is extremely high. That's why it's called a low percentage pass. It's just poor driving in the same way that leaving two lanes between you and every apex is; you're not going to turn as many laps. On the flip side of the coin, Lemonaid is at most races I go to, and they're always clean while being brutally aggressive because they see making a clean pass as their responsibility. This is why they're always running in the top 10.

MZAVARIN, was this the prelude pitted with great globs of oil?

Lastly, FWIW the smokeshow wasn't the minivan, that was the gremlin.

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Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

VanillaHaze wrote:

That miata had absolutely no excuse to try that pass. Even if the TR7 had seen him coming up, he closed from way back and dive bombed the apex in a way that the TR7 could not have expected. The onus is 100% on the driver making the pass to make it clean. It's courteous to leave a lane for a faster car, but every driver is racing and has a right to the track. This is a textbook example of an incredibly dangerous and irresponsible divebomb.
.

Isn't this what was said at the meeting? Fast cars have a responsibility to pass safely and slower cars have a right to the track but could give room to faster cars if they want to

MBTL Racing

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

Ratdoggy wrote:
VanillaHaze wrote:

That miata had absolutely no excuse to try that pass. Even if the TR7 had seen him coming up, he closed from way back and dive bombed the apex in a way that the TR7 could not have expected. The onus is 100% on the driver making the pass to make it clean. It's courteous to leave a lane for a faster car, but every driver is racing and has a right to the track. This is a textbook example of an incredibly dangerous and irresponsible divebomb.
.

Isn't this what was said at the meeting? Fast cars have a responsibility to pass safely and slower cars have a right to the track but could give room to faster cars if they want to

In short yes. Which is why anybody who says that this is the TR7's fault should really go to chump or somewhere for RealRacers (TM). Technically it's an at fault environment per the rules, so it's everybody's fault every time, but this is really just so the judges can point to it if the miata driver lost his shit when he got flagged because 'he had the line!' and they don't have to worry about justifying penalizing him because it was his fault for going on the racetrack in the first place, per the rules. Kind of like how rule 1.1 says that the rules are whatever the organizers say they are.

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Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

Nope.. opinions don’t differ depending how fast your car is.  I’ve driven a 55HP Metro for the first 3 years of my Lemons experience, and my experience was that I needed to be predictable and monitor my mirrors for faster cars.  But there is no way I could’ve avoided the Miata. It came from way far back, and missed its apex.   You can’t drive a car (even a slow one) at the limit by constantly staring at your mirrors to avoid this type of incident.   

I’m actually surprised this is a discussion.

I expected... “ Miata messed up, let’s move on “

It’s not that the Miata is evil, they just made a mistake.  It sucks for the TR7, but we’re all amateurs that aren’t that good at this stuff.

TheEngineer wrote:

regardless of what should or should not be the norm, the reality is that people pull moves like this all the time. Should the Miata have chilled a second and gone for the pass after that corner? Maybe. Did they appear to come in a little hot? maybe. But I know if I was in the TR I would have done more than glance in the mirrors, especially since someone had just come through the inside, and when one person does that, usually there is a follower.

opinions seem to differ based on where you fall in the speed spectrum. When you start out in a terrible slow car you learn to drive off line more and make way all the time for cars that do expect you to get out of their way. Even though we drive a quicker car now (quicker, not A class fast), I still drive in my mirrors, and if I think there's any chance someone is going to pull a move like that I leave a lane.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

24 (edited by RobL 2019-04-21 06:44 AM)

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

Ratdoggy wrote:
VanillaHaze wrote:

The onus is 100% on the driver making the pass to make it clean. It's courteous to leave a lane for a faster car, but every driver is racing and has a right to the track. This is a textbook example of an incredibly dangerous and irresponsible divebomb.
.

Isn't this what was said at the meeting? Fast cars have a responsibility to pass safely and slower cars have a right to the track but could give room to faster cars if they want to

Then we've been at different meetings. 

I've heard it said that "you are in different races, you aren't on the same lap, you don't know if you are in the same class, so there is no excuse for blocking.  Let the faster cars through as quickly as you can."

Yes, everyone has the right to track.  But nowhere in the rules does it put the onus completely on the passing driver to make sure that contact does not happen.  You are thinking of other series.  In Lemons that responsibility is on everyone.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

RobL wrote:
Ratdoggy wrote:
VanillaHaze wrote:

The onus is 100% on the driver making the pass to make it clean. It's courteous to leave a lane for a faster car, but every driver is racing and has a right to the track. This is a textbook example of an incredibly dangerous and irresponsible divebomb.
.

Isn't this what was said at the meeting? Fast cars have a responsibility to pass safely and slower cars have a right to the track but could give room to faster cars if they want to

Then we've been at different meetings. 

I've heard it said that "you are in different races, you aren't on the same lap, you don't know if you are in the same class, so there is no excuse for blocking.  Let the faster cars through as quickly as you can."

Yes, everyone has the right to track.  But nowhere in the rules does it put the onus completely on the passing driver to make sure that contact does not happen.  You are thinking of other series.  In Lemons that responsibility is on everyone.

The rules don't put the onus on the passing driver, common sense does. This is because the passing driver is the only one who can read the whole situation without having to not look at the road ahead. Nobody can intently watch a faster car for when he makes a move while also navigating the corner consistently over the course of the race. The passing driver can see the corner and the other car without ever changing their focus. Making the assumption that a car ahead of you has anything more than a fleeting awareness of your presence, much less speed or intention, is just plain fucking stupid.

I've been on both sides of this issue and still have cars that I'll be real aware of show up out of nowhere next to me when I wasn't expecting it.  You can't always predict the car behind you. However, I can promise you that I have never been taken by surprise that a car that is in front of me is suddenly next to me because they're right there where I can see them the whole time.

Owner of the Knights Templar Neon
A&D of middling proportions