Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

Funny you mention the car showing up out of nowhere.  I was 2.5 wide into a corner when one of the cars you destroyed (Chad's Escort) showed up in front of me not much faster than I was in the Saturn.  He was just there in front of a Camero, SHO and me.  Scared the willies out of me and I had my first contact ever (and since) tapping my brake mid-corner.  Was Chad wrong?  No, he executed clean outside pass on three other cars.  Was it potentially a ow percentage pass..hell yeah but not because of me but because the Camero had him on exit speed.  Had the Camero just gone for it, it would have been a perfectly executed pit maneuver and collect 4 cars.  Camero did the right thing and just waited.

Not saying Chad was wrong, ust we make split second decisions every lap that determine if we are racing and endurance race or a sprint.

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

VanillaHaze wrote:
RobL wrote:
Ratdoggy wrote:

Isn't this what was said at the meeting? Fast cars have a responsibility to pass safely and slower cars have a right to the track but could give room to faster cars if they want to

Then we've been at different meetings. 

I've heard it said that "you are in different races, you aren't on the same lap, you don't know if you are in the same class, so there is no excuse for blocking.  Let the faster cars through as quickly as you can."

Yes, everyone has the right to track.  But nowhere in the rules does it put the onus completely on the passing driver to make sure that contact does not happen.  You are thinking of other series.  In Lemons that responsibility is on everyone.

The rules don't put the onus on the passing driver, common sense does. This is because the passing driver is the only one who can read the whole situation without having to not look at the road ahead. Nobody can intently watch a faster car for when he makes a move while also navigating the corner consistently over the course of the race. The passing driver can see the corner and the other car without ever changing their focus. Making the assumption that a car ahead of you has anything more than a fleeting awareness of your presence, much less speed or intention, is just plain fucking stupid.

I've been on both sides of this issue and still have cars that I'll be real aware of show up out of nowhere next to me when I wasn't expecting it.  You can't always predict the car behind you. However, I can promise you that I have never been taken by surprise that a car that is in front of me is suddenly next to me because they're right there where I can see them the whole time.


Well said.

2020 I.O.E. CT #36 The Rootes Of All Evil,1958 Sunbeam Rapier Convertible (YES 1958!!) & 2019 Judges Choice NJMP
2016 Thompson Speedway #36 Sabrina Duncan's Revenge, IOE Trophy, 5th Place 'C' Class 1977 Ford Pinto
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Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

Hard to tell precisely from the chase cam, but it sure looks to me like the TR driver left a car width open at the apex. Was he supposed to leave two?

29 (edited by RobL 2019-04-21 06:50 PM)

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

-SDR- wrote:
VanillaHaze wrote:
RobL wrote:

Then we've been at different meetings. 

I've heard it said that "you are in different races, you aren't on the same lap, you don't know if you are in the same class, so there is no excuse for blocking.  Let the faster cars through as quickly as you can."

Yes, everyone has the right to track.  But nowhere in the rules does it put the onus completely on the passing driver to make sure that contact does not happen.  You are thinking of other series.  In Lemons that responsibility is on everyone.

The rules don't put the onus on the passing driver, common sense does. This is because the passing driver is the only one who can read the whole situation without having to not look at the road ahead. Nobody can intently watch a faster car for when he makes a move while also navigating the corner consistently over the course of the race. The passing driver can see the corner and the other car without ever changing their focus. Making the assumption that a car ahead of you has anything more than a fleeting awareness of your presence, much less speed or intention, is just plain fucking stupid.

I've been on both sides of this issue and still have cars that I'll be real aware of show up out of nowhere next to me when I wasn't expecting it.  You can't always predict the car behind you. However, I can promise you that I have never been taken by surprise that a car that is in front of me is suddenly next to me because they're right there where I can see them the whole time.


Well said.

And I don't disagree with the specific point about passing, either.  But when people say the rules say that the passing driver is the only one responsible for avoiding contact - that's just plain wrong.  Both cars are.  The passing car is in the best position to avoid contact and control the situation but that's it.  If the lead car can avoid contact, they are obliged to do so.  Saying that a car must always yield a corner is as dangerous as saying that he must not.  Having a car tool around track thinking that they can always drive the racing line because they are in front is going to have a bad day and, worse, hit other cars. 

One thing that I agree with but also disagree with is the statement "Making the assumption that a car ahead of you has anything more than a fleeting awareness of your presence, much less speed or intention, is just plain fucking stupid."  Yes, I agree with that statement as a general rule.  I disagree because the drivers DO need to be aware of their surroundings or they shouldn't be in the car.  It needs to be more than a "fleeting awareness."  And giving people an excuse to think that they don't need to be checking their mirrors by saying that's it's always the passing drivers responsibility to pass cleanly is asking for trouble.  A driver needs to know if a car is up next to them and/or is passing them.  That, as a rule, should never be a surprise.  And, if you are in the car and it happens, you need to consider letting the next driver in as you've become mentally fatigued.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

30 (edited by MZAVARIN 2019-04-21 07:14 PM)

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

VanillaHaze-----

MZAVARIN, was this the prelude pitted with great globs of oil?

Hi!
Yup...I race with the Globs!  Opel and Probe!  Hope you make it to NJ....we are in the planning phase.

Otherwise, as a follow up---
At the race, we gave the judges a copy of the video, and later they thanked us since the Miata car/team was black flagged for other incidents and blamed/argued that they were not at fault.  The judges used the video to show them that their driving was to blame.

Seems to me, at the races, in terms of laying blame, there is a black and white area, but also a big gray area during contact incidents.
The "Everyone is at fault" policy seems to be in place since many times the "whose at fault" is in the gray area, no one is taking the blame, there is not instant replay video, and thus it makes it easier for the judges.  (Interestingly, some racing organizations require everyone to have an on board camera....).  Even though, technically, common sense wise,  it is the passing car's responsibility to time and make the pass cleanly. 
(I will frequently follow a car that is driving unpredictibly for an opportunity to pass, assuming they are very novice drivers (like I was not that long ago)....but maybe that is also because our car does not have the guts to blast past others...).
But seriously, for example, if you are driving super carefully, looking at your mirrors continuously, and a car comes in hot into a corner and T-bones you...no way you could avoid them...it is totally their fault....that is black and white
And I LOVE it when a team comes in, and says, that even though there is a "Everyone is at fault" policy, they admit that they were totally at fault, and I get to go back out without a Black Flag penalty...And I (my team) also know to do the same.... (unwritten Lemons rule?)

Seems to me, if your car is "slower" you need to look at your mirrors more, and if you can just blast past everyone, you need to look at your mirrors less?  I dunno...I've just driven the same POS since the beginning and still learning....Driving a B Class car, sometimes it seems everyone is blasting past me...and at times, I feel I am passing everyone on the track....but unfortunately, I can't do both...look at my mirrors continuously and drive fast, passing a bunch of cars, cleanly and safely...

Although at the Pitt race, it seemed even the C class cars were fast!

MarioKart Driving School: 1987 Honda Prelude Si (Opus #28) 
Loudon, NH 2014 - Millville, NJ, Lightening 2019 (RIP)
New and improved: 1987 Honda Prelude Si (Opus #11) Pittsburgh, PA 2021 - ??
and finally won something, Class C Win: Loudon, NH 2022

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

Nope.. opinions don’t differ depending how fast your car is.  I’ve driven a 55HP Metro for the first 3 years of my Lemons experience, and my experience was that I needed to be predictable and monitor my mirrors for faster cars.  But there is no way I could’ve avoided the Miata. It came from way far back, and missed its apex.   You can’t drive a car (even a slow one) at the limit by constantly staring at your mirrors to avoid this type of incident.   

I’m actually surprised this is a discussion.

I expected... “ Miata messed up, let’s move on “

It’s not that the Miata is evil, they just made a mistake.  It sucks for the TR7, but we’re all amateurs that aren’t that good at this stuff.

TheEngineer wrote:

regardless of what should or should not be the norm, the reality is that people pull moves like this all the time. Should the Miata have chilled a second and gone for the pass after that corner? Maybe. Did they appear to come in a little hot? maybe. But I know if I was in the TR I would have done more than glance in the mirrors, especially since someone had just come through the inside, and when one person does that, usually there is a follower.

opinions seem to differ based on where you fall in the speed spectrum. When you start out in a terrible slow car you learn to drive off line more and make way all the time for cars that do expect you to get out of their way. Even though we drive a quicker car now (quicker, not A class fast), I still drive in my mirrors, and if I think there's any chance someone is going to pull a move like that I leave a lane.


I am not placing blame on the TR. They left a lane like they should have. My point is that people make bonehead moves like this a lot. I cannot tell you how many times I've had someone come in too hot trying to tail another car through an inside pass and mess it up, which is what that miata did. I've learned to look for it and avoid it when coming into a corner. No, the TR should not have to the the one to avoid something like this, but it will keep you on track if you do.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

Sort of off topic, but since TeamLemon-aid commented about passing, I'll say this.  I'm in a decent Class A car.  We finished 3rd overall at Barber in 2018, and IIRC TeamLemon-aid won that race.  We are almost aware of who the leaders are, and where they are in relation to us on track.  When I see you, I'll make sure to give you room because we're not at yours or the Ta-Tas level of speed.  That said, you are VERY aggressive, and almost wrecked us twice in February.  Both times of which were not called for, especially the 2nd time, which was on Sunday, when you had a EIGHT LAP LEAD over 2nd place.   We make an effort to know where you are in the standings.  When you have such a huge lead, you might wanna dial back the aggressive meter just a little.  No need to wreck us, or yourselves with such aggressive moves in that situation.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

RobL wrote:
-SDR- wrote:
VanillaHaze wrote:

The rules don't put the onus on the passing driver, common sense does. This is because the passing driver is the only one who can read the whole situation without having to not look at the road ahead. Nobody can intently watch a faster car for when he makes a move while also navigating the corner consistently over the course of the race. The passing driver can see the corner and the other car without ever changing their focus. Making the assumption that a car ahead of you has anything more than a fleeting awareness of your presence, much less speed or intention, is just plain fucking stupid.

I've been on both sides of this issue and still have cars that I'll be real aware of show up out of nowhere next to me when I wasn't expecting it.  You can't always predict the car behind you. However, I can promise you that I have never been taken by surprise that a car that is in front of me is suddenly next to me because they're right there where I can see them the whole time.


Well said.

And I don't disagree with the specific point about passing, either.  But when people say the rules say that the passing driver is the only one responsible for avoiding contact - that's just plain wrong.  Both cars are.  The passing car is in the best position to avoid contact and control the situation but that's it.  If the lead car can avoid contact, they are obliged to do so.  Saying that a car must always yield a corner is as dangerous as saying that he must not.  Having a car tool around track thinking that they can always drive the racing line because they are in front is going to have a bad day and, worse, hit other cars. 

One thing that I agree with but also disagree with is the statement "Making the assumption that a car ahead of you has anything more than a fleeting awareness of your presence, much less speed or intention, is just plain fucking stupid."  Yes, I agree with that statement as a general rule.  I disagree because the drivers DO need to be aware of their surroundings or they shouldn't be in the car.  It needs to be more than a "fleeting awareness."  And giving people an excuse to think that they don't need to be checking their mirrors by saying that's it's always the passing drivers responsibility to pass cleanly is asking for trouble.  A driver needs to know if a car is up next to them and/or is passing them.  That, as a rule, should never be a surprise.  And, if you are in the car and it happens, you need to consider letting the next driver in as you've become mentally fatigued.

I would encourage you to go to a track day and have a car behind you that you never let it out of focus so you always know where they are and tell me how far you can make it down the track without crashing. Always aware of your surroundings is impossible because you can't be looking ahead of you and behind you at the same time. You only know where the car behind you is when you are actively focused on your mirror. This isn't a question of fatigue or inattention, it's a question of only being able to focus on one thing at once.

As far as lemonaid goes, they are always brutally aggressive, but it is also one of the best driven cars on track. They race in the midwest with us and they'll get close to you every time and never hit you. You get used to it after a few races and come to realize that they didn't almost crash you; they can make that pass 200 times and never touch. It can be unsettling but they will back out of a corner if they don't think they can make a clean pass. Perfect example of "that's what this looks like at a very high level, now please god don't try to drive my car like that"

Owner of the Knights Templar Neon
A&D of middling proportions

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

Most people in this thread are arguing from very similar positions. (Remember, the assholes aren't even on the forum.) There are definitely grey areas out there, but as long as you can accept responsibility for your own part and go offer the other poor sap a few beers at the end of the day, it'll all work out. I've definitely fallen victim to "red mist" and stuck the nose of our B/C-class heap where I shouldn't have a couple times.

Now to spice up the soup a little bit: In a slower car, do you leave the same amount of room for everybody, regardless of on-track behavior? If not, do you leave more room for the dick-steppers (to more directly avoid damage to your car), or more room for the habitually fast and clean cars (as a reward for good behavior)?

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

SpaceFrank wrote:

Now to spice up the soup a little bit: In a slower car, do you leave the same amount of room for everybody, regardless of on-track behavior? If not, do you leave more room for the dick-steppers (to more directly avoid damage to your car), or more room for the habitually fast and clean cars (as a reward for good behavior)?

For me personally, I generally leave lemonaid exactly one car width and they take it without a problem every time. If I can't actively keep hell kitty from making a move on the straight, I'm going to give them as wide a birth as possible. But I usually prefer to try to control the lanes so they don't pass me somewhere that I'm uncomfortable making adjustments if they do something dumb.

Owner of the Knights Templar Neon
A&D of middling proportions

36 (edited by RobL 2019-04-22 09:07 PM)

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

VanillaHaze wrote:
RobL wrote:
-SDR- wrote:

Well said.

And I don't disagree with the specific point about passing, either.  But when people say the rules say that the passing driver is the only one responsible for avoiding contact - that's just plain wrong.  Both cars are.  The passing car is in the best position to avoid contact and control the situation but that's it.  If the lead car can avoid contact, they are obliged to do so.  Saying that a car must always yield a corner is as dangerous as saying that he must not.  Having a car tool around track thinking that they can always drive the racing line because they are in front is going to have a bad day and, worse, hit other cars. 

One thing that I agree with but also disagree with is the statement "Making the assumption that a car ahead of you has anything more than a fleeting awareness of your presence, much less speed or intention, is just plain fucking stupid."  Yes, I agree with that statement as a general rule.  I disagree because the drivers DO need to be aware of their surroundings or they shouldn't be in the car.  It needs to be more than a "fleeting awareness."  And giving people an excuse to think that they don't need to be checking their mirrors by saying that's it's always the passing drivers responsibility to pass cleanly is asking for trouble.  A driver needs to know if a car is up next to them and/or is passing them.  That, as a rule, should never be a surprise.  And, if you are in the car and it happens, you need to consider letting the next driver in as you've become mentally fatigued.

I would encourage you to go to a track day and have a car behind you that you never let it out of focus so you always know where they are and tell me how far you can make it down the track without crashing. Always aware of your surroundings is impossible because you can't be looking ahead of you and behind you at the same time. You only know where the car behind you is when you are actively focused on your mirror. This isn't a question of fatigue or inattention, it's a question of only being able to focus on one thing at once.

I do 4-5 races a year and instruct at track days almost every other weekend.  I do lead/follow drills (where I lead on the line that I want my student to follow and look back and see if they are actually following).  That said, I never said stare into your mirror exclusively.  Please don't put words in my mouth.  But when you are coming to your turn, you need to know if there is someone who is going to be coming up on you who may come up beside you.  For that you need to look in your mirrors and take in information quickly.  Look at the video I posted earlier in this thread where I let a race leader though.  In that 0:27 clip, I count that I check my mirrors 8-9 times coming through 2 turns.  I was still able drive straight, brake, make my turns, maintain my speed through the turn, and hit my track out point.  If you are unable to look around and see if other cars are close to yours while in a brake zone, maybe other pursuits call - like golf or knitting.  But knitting has pointy sticks that you have to keep track of in the yarn, so maybe not that for you. 

SpaceFrank:  I know the fast guys that I race with.  I will play with them and drive close with them all day long.  I keep track of the new guys that pass me - possibly an old team with a new car.  I watch the pass, their lines, their braking, their interactions with other cars on track, etc.  Within a couple of times of seeing them, I can usually tell if they have skills that I can trust or are some yahoos with a fast car.  Like I was half jesting with VH above, if they seem to have trouble keeping track of cars in brake zones (wandering, double turn ins if someone surprises them, cutting people off, etc.) it shows that they are getting overwhelmed in the cockpit and I give them a wide birth.  There is a LOT of communication on track as far as positioning of cars that telegraph intent (and also experience) - a car that telegraphs it's intent from several car lengths back is more likely to get left room than someone who doesn't.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

RobL wrote:

I do 4-5 races a year and instruct at track days almost every other weekend.  I do lead/follow drills (where I lead on the line that I want my student to follow and look back and see if they are actually following).  That said, I never said stare into your mirror exclusively.  Please don't put words in my mouth.  But when you are coming to your turn, you need to know if there is someone who is going to be coming up on you who may come up beside you.  For that you need to look in your mirrors and take in information quickly.  Look at the video I posted earlier in this thread where I let a race leader though.  In that 0:27 clip, I count that I check my mirrors 8-9 times coming through 2 turns.  I was still able drive straight, brake, make my turns, maintain my speed through the turn, and hit my track out point.  If you are unable to look around and see if other cars are close to yours while in a brake zone, maybe other pursuits call - like golf or knitting.  But knitting has pointy sticks that you have to keep track of in the yarn, so maybe not that for you.

So, you can't do what you're proposing and keeping total situation awareness, all you really said is that you had 8-9 fleeting instances of awareness of the cars behind you. If they made a move in between those you would have no idea. I know that some people like you don't do as many races per year, so you probably don't get as much track time, but more experienced drivers should be able to handle this in kind. It still forces you to change your line, though, which is never a good thing. I personally don't like telegraphing my moves at all. I don't rely on the car ahead to make a safe pass if I can help it because I don't like dancing with people I don't know.

I know that you're trying to provide good advice, but nobody can know what the car behind them is doing all the time. If you tell people to do that, all you're doing is setting them up for failure. We're all adults here, and we should expect drivers to be able to handle the concept of managing their mirrors without using asinine truisms like always knowing what the cars behind you are doing. You do the best you can, but all you can do in the end is try to be courteous to the drivers behind you and trust that they know how to make a pass.

Owner of the Knights Templar Neon
A&D of middling proportions

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

#59    -     Wasn't me, I really don't know anything about it         A.

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Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

just watched the video again. literally no doubt in my mind that the miata is 100% to blame. you're stoned if you think otherwise.

if a car is fast enough to "just appear out of nowhere" it is certainly fast enough to make a pass cleanly.

the teal car left a clear path on the inside and the miata chose not to take it -- because he had already committed to something else before he was able to ensure it was actually possible

RE: driving slower cars

SpaceFrank wrote:

Now to spice up the soup a little bit: In a slower car, do you leave the same amount of room for everybody, regardless of on-track behavior? If not, do you leave more room for the dick-steppers (to more directly avoid damage to your car), or more room for the habitually fast and clean cars (as a reward for good behavior)?

as a connoisseur of slow cars, as well as someone who has had a few stints of glory in cars that could really move...

it depends. all I can really say is that I am much more likely to give you a point by if I don't think you are capable of passing me on merit(speed and/or driving ability) alone. faster cars don't need a point by, so I no longer give them.

"THE WONDERMENT CONSORTIUM"
Everything dies baby that's a fact,
But maybe everything that dies someday comes back?

Re: Pitt race: mean ol' Miata (909)

We apologize.   Certainly not how we want to be perceived.  Would be happy to buy you guys a beer and make good on any crappy driving we’re guilty of. 

We didn’t win that race.   In fact, we got taken out on the outside of the turn at the pit road entrance by a team that decided at the last minute that they needed to pit from the inside of the track.  Our fault because we trusted them to not do something stupid, and their fault for doing something stupid.

So we actually finished 2nd.  My guess is we were being overly aggressive trying to make up time that year. 

Again, sorry.  No excuse for that. 

VKZ24 wrote:

Sort of off topic, but since TeamLemon-aid commented about passing, I'll say this.  I'm in a decent Class A car.  We finished 3rd overall at Barber in 2018, and IIRC TeamLemon-aid won that race.  We are almost aware of who the leaders are, and where they are in relation to us on track.  When I see you, I'll make sure to give you room because we're not at yours or the Ta-Tas level of speed.  That said, you are VERY aggressive, and almost wrecked us twice in February.  Both times of which were not called for, especially the 2nd time, which was on Sunday, when you had a EIGHT LAP LEAD over 2nd place.   We make an effort to know where you are in the standings.  When you have such a huge the needed to pit from lead, you might wanna dial back the aggressive meter just a little.  No need to wreck us, or yourselves with such aggressive moves in that situation.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.