1 Topic by guardrail028 (edited by guardrail028 2019-04-29 04:26 PM)

  • From: Connecticut
  • Registered: 2019-04-29
  • Posts: 28

Topic: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

[After months of exhaustive searching and long dead W body forums I've hit a dead end looking for a front brake upgrade. Our team "We like the tuna here" raced Thompson Speedway last near and completely nuked two sets of powerstop front pads.The car is rear drum and the rest of the team is kind of hesitant to swap them to disc. I saw that a lot of 3.8L W body cars have been swapped over to F body dual piston calipers and 12" rotors by way of modifying the caliper or just using a bracket. This seems to only be an option on gen2 cars. Ours is a pathetic gen1.5 and apparently according to the vast emptiness of the internet, the only option to is take the sparkly wand to the the front suspension and hack fit Gen2 running gear.

My question is, do you, or have you seen anyone swap larger more effective front brakes onto the anemic shit pile 3.1L W body Monte Carlo? Will the Gen2 brakes actually fit?

  • From: Connecticut
  • Registered: 2019-04-29
  • Posts: 28

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

https://i.imgur.com/NvPLSXO.jpg

shitbox for reference.

  • Registered: 2009-05-27
  • Posts: 361

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

First off, Hello! been a while since we talked...
Manny here,from the Saturn Wagon next to Ya all at Thompson last year.
There are a lot of other real race pads that can handle the heat of racing.
EBC, and Hawk are common.
If you make a set of brackets you can usually adapt any caliper and rotor with some ingenuity.
I commonly put willwood brakes on our builds.
How about swapping the spindle assembly from a later model?
GM used the same style spindles for a long time.
The Buicks with super chargers probably had different brakes......
The broadcast codes commonly in the glovebox give you the build information.(RPO codes)
http://jameshalderman.com/images/RPO_Codes.pdf
Is a great source for the info.
Hit me back if you need more help.
Manny

  • Registered: 2011-10-14
  • Posts: 4,167

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

How big do you want to go?  How big are your wheels?

We run Corvette C5 rotors and calipers on our U-body and the same method of conversion should work for a W-body.

  • Spank
  • Utter Madman
  • Offline
  • From: Escondido, CA
  • Registered: 2009-06-10
  • Posts: 5,863

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

I'll tell you that you will notice a HUGE difference by switching to race pads.  I HIGHLY recommend just picking up the phone and calling Porterfield and having them make a set of front pads for you.The lady who picks up the phone will help you decide what compound to go with based on the car and your intended use and she will explain to you the different characteristics of the pads she is recommending.  I think I ended up with "Rayebestos" for one car and

they will even make some performance brake shoes, but I suggest for starters just start with some front pads and see the difference. Don't bother trying to find some off-the-shelf manufacturer on your own-- just pick up the phone and plunk down the credit card and pay the lady what will probably be close to $300 including shipping.

Porterfield Enterprises Ltd

1767 Placentia Ave
Costa Mesa, CA 92627
(949) 548-4470
Fax: (949) 548-7783
Outside California: (800) 537-6842

Email: sales@porterfield-brakes.com

Hours: Monday - Friday 8am - 5pm PST

Spank's Website

  • Registered: 2011-10-14
  • Posts: 4,167

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

Mkotzias wrote:

The Buicks with super chargers probably had different brakes......
Manny

You would think so, right...but not so much.

As the bolt pattern of the W-Body is rather uncommon, even the heftiest hubs really aren't that great.

The one-year-only Uplander with 5-lug wheels gets you rear disk brakes that "bolt right on" for the U-body and probably A-body so we assume the W-body as well.

As mentioned below, C5 Corvette brakes are not hard to fit to the U-body because the third gen V6 Camero's used the same front brakes (except the lug pattern) so someone made a conversion kit.  We did not buy that kit but made our own brackets with nothing more excited than angle grinders and a drill press.  Now the hard part, finding 17" wheels in that bolt pattern to fit the giant rotors.

  • VKZ24
  • VKZ24
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Wilson, NC
  • Registered: 2009-05-20
  • Posts: 1,839

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

I adapted 12" C4 rear disks to my J-body with just a piece of flat steel plate for a bracket.  That might be another route for you to explore because drum brakes suck. Let me know if you need more info.  I think I still have the CAD drawing for the plate.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

VKZ24's Website

  • From: Connecticut
  • Registered: 2019-04-29
  • Posts: 28

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

Spank wrote:

I'll tell you that you will notice a HUGE difference by switching to race pads.  I HIGHLY recommend just picking up the phone and calling Porterfield and having them make a set of front pads for you.The lady who picks up the phone will help you decide what compound to go with based on the car and your intended use and she will explain to you the different characteristics of the pads she is recommending.  I think I ended up with "Rayebestos" for one car and

they will even make some performance brake shoes, but I suggest for starters just start with some front pads and see the difference. Don't bother trying to find some off-the-shelf manufacturer on your own-- just pick up the phone and plunk down the credit card and pay the lady what will probably be close to $300 including shipping.

Porterfield Enterprises Ltd

1767 Placentia Ave
Costa Mesa, CA 92627
(949) 548-4470
Fax: (949) 548-7783
Outside California: (800) 537-6842

Email: sales@porterfield-brakes.com

Hours: Monday - Friday 8am - 5pm PST

this is immensely helpful. already found pre mades. Our team Cap just got an email back from EBC, they're considering making us a one off set as they dont make race compound for this junk.

  • From: Connecticut
  • Registered: 2019-04-29
  • Posts: 28

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

OH hey long time no see. Luckily we just had some correspondence with EBC who are inquiring their factory about possibly cranking out a set of one off race compound pads. If wilwoods weren't cost prohibitive for us, that would be somewhere in plans A-C.
We don't have the RPO codes as we junked the whole dash. What is curious is that our car has dual pot front calipers and rear drums factory, not the single pistons on the first gen vehicles. Our suspension in the front is 1st gen, but the rear suspension is the updated MacPherson strut design(thank fucking god). It does seem that most of the hub/knuckle parts for the 3.8 are too big for our car, so we may end up hack modding something together. who knows. We reserved one of those Bougie ass garages this year so if it monsoons all weekend again we might be dry! Hope to see you guys again.
-Kenny

Mkotzias wrote:

First off, Hello! been a while since we talked...
Manny here,from the Saturn Wagon next to Ya all at Thompson last year.
There are a lot of other real race pads that can handle the heat of racing.
EBC, and Hawk are common.
If you make a set of brackets you can usually adapt any caliper and rotor with some ingenuity.
I commonly put willwood brakes on our builds.
How about swapping the spindle assembly from a later model?
GM used the same style spindles for a long time.
The Buicks with super chargers probably had different brakes......
The broadcast codes commonly in the glovebox give you the build information.(RPO codes)
http://jameshalderman.com/images/RPO_Codes.pdf
Is a great source for the info.
Hit me back if you need more help.
Manny

  • From: Connecticut
  • Registered: 2019-04-29
  • Posts: 28

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

OnkelUdo wrote:

How big do you want to go?  How big are your wheels?

We run Corvette C5 rotors and calipers on our U-body and the same method of conversion should work for a W-body.

We are using Stock wheels from a 04+ Monte SS. and they BARELY clear the rotors, we will likely have to through spacers on them this year. our brakes are already 11' ..I think. has twin piston front calipers, not the single piston. I figured the lighter and larger Camero brakes would be a direct fit like on the 3.8SS cars but they apparently have entire different front hubs and knuckles.

  • From: Connecticut
  • Registered: 2019-04-29
  • Posts: 28

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

VKZ24 wrote:

I adapted 12" C4 rear disks to my J-body with just a piece of flat steel plate for a bracket.  That might be another route for you to explore because drum brakes suck. Let me know if you need more info.  I think I still have the CAD drawing for the plate.

We don't have the means of CAD fabrication, but if the team decided they want to get custom with things, I will definitely revisit this option.

  • VKZ24
  • VKZ24
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Wilson, NC
  • Registered: 2009-05-20
  • Posts: 1,839

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

guardrail028 wrote:
VKZ24 wrote:

I adapted 12" C4 rear disks to my J-body with just a piece of flat steel plate for a bracket.  That might be another route for you to explore because drum brakes suck. Let me know if you need more info.  I think I still have the CAD drawing for the plate.

We don't have the means of CAD fabrication, but if the team decided they want to get custom with things, I will definitely revisit this option.

I meant I had a drawing that would give you a starting point. I had my adapter plates laser-cut a local shop, but I have a plasma cutter now and could do it myself.  With enough information I could probably build ones for you as well.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

VKZ24's Website

  • Registered: 2010-03-08
  • Posts: 419

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

Second Porterfield.  I've had poor luck with EBC, but good luck with Performance Friction, Raybestos, Porterfield, and even Hawk in some applications, all of which Porterfield sells.  Their prices are also competitive with other vendors.

Going to bigger brakes but staying with crap pads may very well leave you still burning pads off the thing.  Sticking with the stock brakes but running a pad designed for racing will probably not.

Just put racing pads on it.

  • Registered: 2013-11-15
  • Posts: 670

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

Third Porterfield.  They did not have my Volvo brakes listed.  They asked me to send a picture of my pad backing and a week later custom Raybestos ST-43s arrived at my door.  Might be slightly more expensive, but you will get more races out of a set.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon
  • Mr.Yuck
  • Mr.Yuck
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Brookeville, Md.
  • Registered: 2013-12-09
  • Posts: 1,012

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

I'm not really sure if he has a kit for you all but try bigbrakeupgrade.com. We use his C5/6 kit on our Gen III F-body. It makes a big difference.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"
  • Type44
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Phoenix, AZ
  • Registered: 2011-07-23
  • Posts: 1,696

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

Porterfields first. Never have run our car without a good set of R4E's. and everyone comments on how good the brakes are. I can't imagine burning through several sets of pads in a race. Porterfields last a few races per set on our 4000 lb car!

Tradewinds Tribesmen Racing (The road goes on forever…)
#289 1984 Corvette Z51 #124 1984 944 #110 2002 Passat
Gone but not forgotten, #427-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500
IOE (Humber!) Hell on Wheels (Jaguar)
  • X-args
  • X-args
  • May Have Raced Your Car
  • Offline
  • From: East Bay, CA
  • Registered: 2009-05-01
  • Posts: 735

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

ST43 Raybestos/Porterfield all the way. $$ but last many weekends and are amazing.

2x Volvo PV544 (RIP '63) B20 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 142 races and counting.
2/25/24
  • Mr.Yuck
  • Mr.Yuck
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Brookeville, Md.
  • Registered: 2013-12-09
  • Posts: 1,012

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

X-args wrote:

ST43 Raybestos/Porterfield all the way. $$ but last many weekends and are amazing.

we wanted ST43's but nobody had t hem in stock. (C6 set-up) we went with a similar Wilwood compound it they worked fantastic, plus they were cheaper.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"
  • From: Connecticut
  • Registered: 2019-04-29
  • Posts: 28

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

Yay updates. After much back and forth with some different vendors and finding out to our dismay that newer Monte SS brakes don't clear the control arms. EBC brakes made a one-off set of Blue stuff for our turd and all they want in return is for our feedback about the pads. We didn't do shit for the rear drums, so those still suck, but our front brakes may be slightly less sucky now. The EBC rep also recommended Blank rotors with a coating or slotted only rotors, so I believe we are going with blanks. So that's that for this year's race. hopefully those pads hang in there for the whole race, any additional sets are gonna put us back about a hunna-fiddy.
-K

  • Mr.Yuck
  • Mr.Yuck
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Offline
  • From: Brookeville, Md.
  • Registered: 2013-12-09
  • Posts: 1,012

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

guardrail028 wrote:

Yay updates. After much back and forth with some different vendors and finding out to our dismay that newer Monte SS brakes don't clear the control arms. EBC brakes made a one-off set of Blue stuff for our turd and all they want in return is for our feedback about the pads. We didn't do shit for the rear drums, so those still suck, but our front brakes may be slightly less sucky now. The EBC rep also recommended Blank rotors with a coating or slotted only rotors, so I believe we are going with blanks. So that's that for this year's race. hopefully those pads hang in there for the whole race, any additional sets are gonna put us back about a hunna-fiddy.
-K

all the articles I read say don't use drilled or slotted rotors. Those are for parking lot racing, not 4-6-8 hours at a time. Also you should be able to find a rear disc set cheap. I'd bet a set off a 3rd Gen F-body 10 bolt set-up will bolt right up. If I had our old 10 bolt I would have sent you the parts for shipping.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"
  • ramair
  • Rookie Driver
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2017-11-24
  • Posts: 5

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

Another option similar to Porterfield mentioned above is Carbotech. They made a set of XP8 compound pads for dodge minivan calipers for me. They basically told me if they can't get the backing plates they will buy a set of street pads at the auto parts store, grind off the street compound and use them to make the pads. It was $274 for a front set.

  • From: Tustin, CA
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 3,275

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

^  Dont get me started on the pad transfer hell that I went through with Carbotech.   Even after spending thousands exactly following their directions, they just blamed me for the problems.  Just Google Carbotech pad transfer and you'll see a lot of people have had problems with their product and got blamed for it.  Problems that were solved simply by switching to ST-43s.  They seem to work for a few people but a lot of others have gone through hell with them and their "customer service".  Porterfield and others will also make custom pads using your backing plates.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)
  • gtopat
  • gtopat
  • Ripened Lemon
  • Offline
  • From: Langhorne, PA
  • Registered: 2010-06-25
  • Posts: 465

Re: F body Camero brakes on a 1st gen W body Monte Carlo

It may be annoying, but it's not the end of the world to be "stuck" with Carbotech. We use their XP24s on the Gran Fury, only compound I've found that will survive the abuse of 4400lbs and bad drivers. We're just resigned to changing pads/rotors after every day of racing due to shudder/transfer.

Unfortunately, the Fury's brake pads have a unique curved backing plate, Raybestos/Porterfield can't fit them to their machines to reline. Carbotech has that ability, if you need custom pads, they can make stuff other places can't.

Interceptor Motorsports
351w Foxy T-Bird - Class B Winner!, 440 Bluesmobile - Judges Choice, Org Choice & IOE!, Camero, Fuego Turbo - Heroic Fix & IOE!