Topic: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

Ok guys. I am writing this because I am truly baffled by the must win mentality of some participants. I am relatively new with only 4 races under my belt now. Each race we collectively do better as a team. I was under the impression that this was all in fun. I got involved because I thought we were just basically racing ourselves, and the clock. If you were good enough to finish first, so be it. No big deal. A few hundred bucks in nickels is not that awesome of a prize. I am happy just getting better each race and building a piece of crap that can actually make the whole race weekend. To be honest I couldnt care less what position we finish in as long as I had a great time.
  If I wanted to build a Class A car that would have a shot at a win and spend that kind of money it wouldnt be for Lemons. I would go SCCA or other road race sanctioned races. If you think about it, a win makes you the best of the worst. If thats what your game plan is , more power to you. I just dont get it. I am as competitive as any racer, but this type of racing is supposed to be fun. I come from a Nascar short track background where the competition is fierce and you would bend every rule you could and spend every dollar you made in the name of speed. To me that just equates to stress and big bills. I will  take my piece of crap Camaro and drive it like I stole it with a big sh-t eating grin on my face. As I enjoy seeing the crazy backwards built cars, overgrown stick shifts and Mr Rogers trolleys on the same track. Did you ever notice that the winners get less attention than the crazy and innovative builds that actually race?
  Sorry for the somewhat rant, but am I the only guy that thinks its about fun? What triggered this is the fact we were scolded by an A team for mirror driving them. Really?? We are lucky to pay attention to whats in front of us. Never mind Mirror driving someone. To me its a very simple thing, If you are faster, then pass me, I dont care. If you are slower I will pass you, and smile as I go by because its fun. If we are about the same, game on, lets have some good racing.
   Am I the minority here?

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

Name and Shame. That kind of crap is a violation of Rule 2.4 "No Whining"

Whoever they were, Ignore them, and/or point out Rule 6.1 "It's Always Your Fault" if they were good drivers they would find a hole around you.

The ONLY people at the track who can scold you are the JUDGES, ORGANIZERS, and Track Officials.

The only advice is don't willfully block, because odds are they aren't even on the same lap as you and you're just putting yourself at risk.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

You are correct. From someone that has been doing Lemons for more than 10 years, the correct response to the person on the other team chiding you is to smile and walk away. That person won't be around Lemons long and if it really is an entire team with a super competitive attitude then the whole team will experience a reset or be gone soon. You don't really need to do anything to help that along. Stand clear and let it happen.

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

There is nothing wrong with wanting to win, it's a race after all.
If you think you need to spend silly money to do so stop by a midwest race and check out our car.

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
24x Loser with the Celica. 16x loser in other fine machines
Overall winner Gingerman 2019

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

I was going to take the high road on this...... but if you insist. The person that came to our garage stall was with the Class A  winning team. Not only did they come to us, but they had previously gone to the Lemons officials complaining before coming to us. If the Lemons officials said something to us, I would have respected the decision. But apparently the complaint was quickly dismissed. Everyone on my team feels like I do. No one intentionally did anything to impede these people. Thats not what we are about. Again, its about the fun...Lighten up.

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

What?  Overall winner on laps AND they're unhappy?  Sheesh.  What race?  Thompson Chungmamantlahaewhatever?

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

Of course there is a desire to win and do better. You are 100 percent correct. But lets not let the reality of a Lemons race turn into a game of complaining about other drivers. There are guys and girls out there that have never seen the inside of a race car before, let alone driven in a competition. This is not the type of event to criticize driving skill. My point being if you want to be at that level, you are in the wrong arena.

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

Of course, east coast BMW team. I thought Mome Rath was better than nickel-fever tryhards.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

You are whining about the other team whining...lol

There are teams that are trying to win, and have cheaty cars, spend lots of money, etc,
and frankly don't look like they are having fun either.   Too bad for them.

You can still have fun and try to win.

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

nimblemotorsports wrote:

There are teams that are trying to win, and have cheaty cars, spend lots of money, etc,
and frankly don't look like they are having fun either.

This needs to be printed on a banner they put up at the entrance to every track.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

We have as much fun as anyone and we have won a few races. (Also An IOE, Class C x3, etc).  We have done well outside of Lemons also. Lemons CAN be about winning.  Some teams actually DO try, and it’s ok that they do.

Yes, Lemons has new drivers who are slower, it also has experienced drivers who are faster.   The time at which you forget that this is an all inclusive series is the time a team should move on ( A class teams who criticize slower teams ).   So winning teams should never give a slower team any trouble about anything.

Having said that, we don’t criticize teams for trying and racing hard.  The whole “too cool to try” concept doesn’t fit everyone.   It is ok to try to win (overall, class C, IOE).  That’s why they have timing and laps.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

12 (edited by squidrope 2019-08-20 10:37 PM)

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

I would never complain to the Lemons crew about being held up by another car. But... If a car catches you, they are faster than you.  Be courteous and let them pass.  I do the point thing and if the faster car is having difficulty passing on the straight I will brake or let off so they can get by. If your position doesn't matter, let'em by.

Winner "We Got Screwed" award NHMS 2017
#847 Batmobile  aka-"Beulah"
https://www.facebook.com/squidroperacing/

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

The timing of this post is really appropriate for me.

I was racing with another series a couple of weeks ago, and their level of aggression is at least 10 fold of any of any serious A-class Lemons team.  I'd say at least 90% of the field drove as if they would win a million dollars.  If you left ANY opening, I mean one the width of a human hair, they would dive into it.  If they hit you, no big deal, there is no penalty for doing so.  By contrast, I've seen at least three teams get parked in Lemons for aggressive driving, and rightfully so.

I will say I've been 'annoyed' with a few slower cars (mostly the ones that drive in the middle of the damn track) but I also realize I will get around them eventually so I bide my time, and wait.  If you are intentionally blocking someone (I have never personally witnessed such behavior in Lemons) in an endurance race, you're an idiot.  Not to mention, it's pretty damn hard to drive the mirror in the first place.

I've been racing in Lemons since 2008, and have been on a overall winning team twice.  In that time I have had car-to-car contact exactly twice.  One was my fault (too hot into the braking zone, tapped another car, apologized to the team), the other was not (driver lost control in front of me, and came back across and hit me)  My point is you can race, have fun, and win w/o being a dangerous jackasshole.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

This is a race, people show up to race. When I first started I also didn't give a crap where I finished in the standings, but 8 years on and I kinda do because it gives us a goal for improvement. Winning overall is hard to do, and some people like setting hard goals and chasing them. Don't shame people for having goals that aren't the same as yours.

A different perspective on the "mirror driving" thing. There are teams who I swear refuse to use their mirrors, they just drive the racing line blindly and as a result chop the nose off of others constantly and are a royal pain in the butt. More times than I would like I have gone for an inside pass on a car I am much faster than, had my nose up to their door or further, and then they just turn in on us blindly going for the apex and my options are hit them, lock up the brakes to fall behind them, or put it on the grass. Yea yea the rules say the overtaking car has the responsibility to make the safe pass, but that doesn't mean that you should ignore what's happening around you. You should be watching your mirrors and if there is a cluster of faster cars, do the polite thing and leave a lane for them to go around.

You were the camaro in the garage next to us at Thompson? I gotta say, whoever was driving during my stint on saturday was incredibly slow in the corners, and not always watching what was happening around them. Our car I couldn't use the throttle at all thanks to it overheating, so we were butt slow all day, but I had about 5 laps where we'd pass you around the track thanks to turns, and then give up the position again on the main straight and then repeat. I can totally see how the cars at the pointy end of the field would get annoyed having to lock up for a corner that was blocked and then have to repeat that every time they found the same car.

It is entirely possible that they were not complaining to you and in fact were trying to offer constructive feedback, which you mistook as an insult. I've personally talked to the judges before when I thought someone was driving in a completely unsafe manner. I didn't do it because I wanted to somehow help my own race, I did it because I saw them almost cause 10 accidents in as many laps and I thought feedback would be a good thing. 



Yes, Lemons is supposed to be fun. But what makes it fun for you isn't the same as someone else. Winning overall I'm sure is fun as hell. winning your class I assume is also fun as hell. Driving a crappy ass car and keeping it alive all weekend so you can win IOE is damn fun too. But because there is such a spread you should be at least aware that not everyone has your goals, and you should be respectful of that.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

As a 10 year veteran.
We have won both C and B classes,Org choice,heroic fix and An IOE, Recently I tried my hand at Judging.(Thompson)
All goals are what you make of them. I love changing it up.
I will be trying to get another class win and an overall in the future......
Each has its own merit and stress level. Competition for any accolade is fun.
I have other racer friends who believe that just being on track is enough....Not me....I want hardware!
As for someone approaching you to complain.....that is not cool. Everyone is there to have fun at their own race and pace.
A different reason for being at a Lemons race is what makes it great.
I hope that it was not an attack and just a misunderstanding. Hell, They won!
Take a breath and realize that when we are racing we aren't worried about all the daily BS of life!

That is really what its all about!

Manny

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

As long as you are not actively blocking or being dangerous out on track, let it go.
The better driver/faster car has to find their way around you. 
I've waited quite some time to make a pass, but I try to make sure it's clean and won't upset the car being passed.

We've been at this for 9 years, I think, and are finally toward the pointy end of our class.  I'm hoping to get a win soon, but won't forget why we're doing this:  To have fun!

Silent But Deadly Racing- Chief cook and bottle washer, Former Flyin Turd Race Team Captain 
Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird Turbo Coupe, Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie
Besmirching race tracks in the Eastern US since 2001

17 (edited by Ratdoggy 2019-08-21 11:45 AM)

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

As a seasoned rookie (is that a thing?)
I'm out there to have fun and learn. I'm not Mario or Richard Petty.
We've stopped for lunch as we are still learning....Trophy? Not happening until we really step up our game
I try to be aware of the faster cars and give them some room or wave them by
But are blocking and not moving over two different things?

But at the end of the day isn't it supposed to be fun?

Gingerman Oct 2016,Gingerman April 2017
Corvette track July 2017  (engine went Kaboom)
Gingerman June 2018, Gingerman Oct 2018

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

TheEngineer wrote:

It is entirely possible that they were not complaining to you and in fact were trying to offer constructive feedback, which you mistook as an insult. I've personally talked to the judges before when I thought someone was driving in a completely unsafe manner. I didn't do it because I wanted to somehow help my own race, I did it because I saw them almost cause 10 accidents in as many laps and I thought feedback would be a good thing.

Glad I made it to this section because I was starting to get the wrong (1259'th) impression of you for change.  We have mentioned dangerous driving to Judges though we tend to drive more the flat side of the anvil than the pointy end of the stick.  Experience has taught us when someone (usually not a team, a driver or maybe two) is not just new or slow but is actually creating a potential hazard...Inattentive is dangerous but totally unpredictable is worse.

Still not 100% on board with a lot of the rest of your message.  I do drive my mirrors in our IoE contenders but I have seasoned drivers that just drive the closest to the line that is best for that car stating "This is the most predicable I can be".  I think there is merit in that.  Still, all of us need to be constantly aware of our surroundings on track and that means once a pass is committed to and pretty darned obvious being executed by a faster car..do the smart thing for all concerned and give a bit of room for even Johnny Real Racer to make a mistake in his perfectly executed pass...both of you suffer if he miscalculated.

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

OnkelUdo wrote:

Glad I made it to this section because I was starting to get the wrong (1259'th) impression of you for change.

Reading my own post again it does come across with not quite the tone I intended. I will leave it as is and clarify.

I mostly wanted to point out that it's easy to jump on the "how dare that A class team" bandwagon, but there may be more to the whole story. There are teams who seem very clueless about what is going on around them. And while yes, it is the overtaking car's responsibility to pass safely, it's not an excuse to be clueless. You should still be aware of what's approaching you, whether you plan on pointing them by or not. Sometimes teams don't think they're acting this way, and sometimes we judge teams to be acting this way more than they really are. Armchair quarterbacking is easy.

I pointed out my experience with the Camaro only to illustrate that it's possible one of the drivers may have been less aware and predictable than the poster here thought, and it's possible that the interaction was supposed to be constructive, not inflammatory. Maybe it wasn't, and if it wasn't, sure shame on them.


And the rest of it was just to point out that there are usually 100+ teams at a race, all with different goals and priorities, and none are more right than the other. As much as the guy out there only trying to have fun without caring where they finish has every right to, so does the team who wants to try to make an overall win. Sure you're not winning anything important, but it's still fun.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

OnkelUdo wrote:

Inattentive is dangerous but totally unpredictable is worse.

QFT! 

I tend to 'size up' certain cars/teams/drivers by watching how they interact with the cars just ahead of me.  IOW, if the guy in the huge Caprice (just an example of a big heavy car) is seen always diving for the apex, no matter what, I know he'll likely do the same to me when I get there.  Doing this repeatedly, he might be an asshole, but he's a predictable one nonetheless.  If I know he's going to do it, I can adjust and find a safer place to pass.  I much prefer that predictable asshole over the noob that drives in the middle, on-line, off-line, or where ever, and seems to drive differently every turn of every lap.

We have discussed this here several times before, but it does help if you are aware there are several races going on at once.  Fast cars in Class A trying get an overall win, slower cars going for the IOE, and Class B somewhere in between.  I'll say it again, if you need a lesson (in our region) on how to race a Class C car, win an IOE while never impeding the faster cars, look to the Duff Beer team.  We've raced with these guys for many years now and they are very predictable, and very courteous with points.  They drive a mirror better than anyone, and should be the benchmark on how it's done.   I'll admit, I couldn't do it, so my hat is always off to them.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

Ok guys. It seems as a whole pretty much everyone is in agreement. I am glad to hear that. I  acknowledge the fact that it IS a RACE, and the idea is to win. And in the future We ourselves may move on from our overweight and underpowered behemouth to a better platform for road racing. For the sake of getting faster. But even at that point I will be doing it for fun or not doing it at all. Again my point being to just keep things in perspective.
   I will also be the first to admit that I am totally new to the whole making a right turn thing as a driver, so no doubt there are many of you guys that can drive a circle around me on a road course. But I am learning your language slowly. I have been nothing if not overly cautious and courteous. I love the competition but I have no issue with being passed by someone faster. I have no desire to screw up someone on their race.
  All that being said I am kind of proud of my team. It being a mixed bag of driving experience with a clearly outmatched car. We were a respectable 34th overall with a 1:30 best lap at Thompson. Our pit speed is measured by calendar...But we are trying, having fun and getting better. AND....Hopefully we can make more friends than enemies.

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

We have a saying about our car, that predictably bad handling is still predictable.

Predictably bad driving is much the same. 

A good car can somewhat mask a bad driver.  But it takes a good driver to manage a difficult car well.

Tunachuckers: 10 Years of Sucking at Sucking
2008- 2010:  1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
2010-present:  1975 Ford LTD Landau...doesn't have a name?
2018:  1951 "Plymford".  Organizer's Choice - CMP Fall 2018 Hurricane Florence reschedule

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

Just to add my two cents, I find it more fun to try to be competitive when you have to dodge minivans and helicopters. It's what makes being at the pointy end fun and more difficult than a series where everybody is in a fairly fast car. And part of the challenge is the fact that the series is open to complete newbies.

Owner of the Knights Templar Neon
A&D of middling proportions

Re: Winning Lemons? Am I missing something??

I love driving in people's mirrors.

You can judge their reaction and determine if they are actually looking in their mirrors (will most likely give you room) or will inevitably chop you down on the apex.

The Pentastar whisperer