Re: Tech Escalation...

Spank wrote:

The business model is to penalize the slowest cars, and to make the faster-slow cars faster.

If you are too damned slow and they deem you to be in the way of the fast cars, they pull you off track "in the interest of your own safety".

If you are too fast for the slow class (Like you win Class C), you get bumped up to B and are told to make your car faster and you will be permitted budget leeway to make go-fast changes to your car.

If you are too fast for B (like you win Class B) ^^^ same story.

In fact, every race you do not win you are encouraged to make changes to your car to make it go faster through the "post race residual value" process.

If you are too fast for A (like you win Class A) you are rewarded with $. Win a second time, you are rewarded with $. Third time, you are rewarded with $, etc etc. Once upon a time, there were occasional lap penalties for overall winners. This has fallen away because some higher ups don't want to penalize people "just because they got it right" (not my words).

Sure, a talking head has said a time or two at an all-call meeting that this is "Amateur Endurance Racing" and that there are no professional scouts at the event and if you want to be a go-fast douche, you should go elsewhere (I'm paraphrasing). This is just lippus flappus. In the current model, this is not encouraged by the way the series is set up. If you win, you are free to win again and again and you must "self-graduate" . Unless you are in a slow-fast car, in which case you are forced to graduate and invest $ to get faster or invest a bunch of $ to buy another slow car to build into a fast-slow car until IT wins and is forced to graduate.

The series is 100% set up (or evolved) to promote speed creep and to have a bunching of faster cars at the upper end of the speed spectrum.

On the surface, it doesn't seem like it is supposed to be that way.

The series attracts new participants by highlighting the slowness and crappiness and general hopelessness of the series and magnifies the hilarity that ensures. New participants often bring what they see highlighted in the official publicity: Crap. When newbies arrive to their first event, they are faced with a dramatic reality check. They are either getting their doors blown off or they are watching 70% of the field out there racing while they are wrenching their asses off on a $500 minimally-prepped car. Some are even thinking, "Hey! We even CHEATED on the $500 budget and and we're STILL getting our doors blown off!"

That first race weekend quickly separates the wheat from the chaff that somehow slipped through after the first weeding-out process, which was the whole Form a team, start building a car, find team members to replace those who quit mid-build, finish building the car, and pay $1380 weeks in advance.

It truly takes a special breed to want to punish yourself a second time, or to admit to yourself that you totally got it wrong this first time and you're going to go out and give it another try (but first you need to find still MORE new team members because those second-tier replacements you had aren't coming back for another go).

And what do you think the focus is on for that second time team leader and the 3rd tier driver's she/he has had to recruit? Going faster. (We vets all know it should be "just make it run and finish" but that not that second time team leader)

The archetypal newbie-team is dwindling. Those newbies who are easily drawn to the series Hilarious Crap premise are already here, and it takes more effort to attract the new naive meat out there. And it is even harder to keep that new meat who has lost some of its naivete. So what you end up getting is seasoned / veteran meat from other series who already know how to drive, "cheat fast", and who just want to drive fast in a different setting and/or get more seat time.

The ball is rolling, if it hasn't already reached terminal velocity, it is damned near. There's nobody who is going to jump in the way to try to slow it down or change its direction. Lemons is what it is. Until it changes its mass through erosion, or something bigger comes along and crashes into it, it will just keep rolling along as it is. It's physics.

There were maybe some tweeks that could have taken place before it got this big, or perhaps some of the things that were in place previously that should not have been withdrawn or allowed to fall by the wayside, but that's all water under the bridge. Live in the now.

It's now, Nut Up or Shut Up.

"It's a goddamn race"

I don't disagree. This does, however, involve the implication that you're going to get faster and start winning. I think the various teammates/car we've raced are forever at the slightly quicker end of B, and going to stay there. I don't see a win in the future, and that's OK. There is someone to race with on every lap. We usually finish in the top half of the standings, and that means a lot of rich guys driving sports cars got outraced by my German Tank. This is satisfying. Is that an odd worldview?

Tradewinds Tribesmen Racing (The road goes on forever…)
#289 1984 Corvette Z51 #124 1984 944 #110 2002 Passat
Gone but not forgotten, #427-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500
IOE (Humber!) Hell on Wheels (Jaguar)

Re: Tech Escalation...

Spank wrote:

When newbies arrive to their first event, they are faced with a dramatic reality check.

What he said...  /\ /\ /\

I arrived at my first Lemons with decades of racing experience at a pretty high level. I was shocked by the level of competition. It is good. Really good. Yet, the culture is still wildly different than other race series. Simply, don't take yourself too seriously.

The cool thing about Lemons is that both work. Great competition among teams who don't take themselves too damn seriously. It's super refreshing. I took myself too seriously and did not have fun racing for years. I loved the competition and thrived on it, but it was not fun. Lemons is still fun.

I don't know what it was like 10 years ago, but I suspect the culture has not changed that much.

--bb

Re: Tech Escalation...

MZAVARIN wrote:

Great to have you back in the family!  Hope you make it to a north east race.
I've done this for a little over 5 years, and yes, thing have changed.  But I would cut the Viper guy some slack...he just found a Lemons Loophole, and they still exist.  A Viper engine in a Rolls is truly is truly in the original Lemons spirit, and he really deserves any trophy he gets (I got screwed, heroic fixed, or Class A win).
Anyways, seems to me, what I've noticed, some things have changed, and some have remained the same.

Same:
- same bad drivers (and newbies are still welcome. Yey!)...seems like there is a difference between Bad Driver=unpredictable newbie, and Bad Driver=aggressive, impatient jerk off and probably not a newbie
- fantastic Lemons family comradery
- intolerance to aggressively bad drivers...they still do a good job of penalizing
- cash awards, great wrap up videos, patches, etc

Changed:
- more good drivers
- no more nickles for prizes
- no more really cool car-part trophies
- fewer legit Class C cars
- speed creep (see interesting discussion and fantastic stats on the recent Loudon NJ race in the other thread)
- seems like they don't really give out penalty laps (must be bad for business)
- more venues
- increased prices
- more safety requirements
- no more free Judge Phil photos
- better windshield race stickers
- better web site and Lemons store

probably more stuff I can't think of now...


Judge Phil still posts the photos from the races on his website. He just doesn't link them here anymore.

Fourteen time loser. You'd think I'd know better by now.

Re: Tech Escalation...

VKZ24 wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

And I don't think it's bad to tell people they should get a little track practice before they come race. Doing even 1 HPDE before  your first race will help you dramatically in simply knowing track norms and figuring out your baseline for limits.

I agree 100%. 

Not that anyone cares, or that it will ever change, but I think it should be mandatory to attend at least one HPDE prior to getting on the track for a race.  It would be safer for all involved. I probably did over 50 HPDE events prior to my first race, and sure glad I did.


You also won the second race you entered.... wink

whatever it was i didn't do it
dorifto dogs E30 - gone but not forgotten

Lee Ho Fook's Racing E36

Re: Tech Escalation...

soldmystang wrote:

You also won the second race you entered.... wink

So did you! smile but, but, but, the 2nd place car almost won.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Tech Escalation...

I run the TT in Champ and Lemon and can say there are some very fast cars in Lemon. I did the only engine swap to the TT of its kind in the USA  a VW CR 2L TDI with a DSG and ran NH was pushed in to class A from B class??  In the spirit of some thing off the wall for Lemon we got pushed up a class.
https://i.imgur.com/PFSSNUQ.jpg

Re: Tech Escalation...

MZAVARIN wrote:

- no more really cool car-part trophies

Agree 100% with that one sad

Interceptor Motorsports
351w Foxy T-Bird - Class B Winner!, 440 Bluesmobile - Judges Choice, Org Choice & IOE!, Camero, Fuego Turbo - Heroic Fix & IOE!

Re: Tech Escalation...

Spinnetti wrote:

So just back after some years off, and things seem to have..... changed. Some of the cars were quite new, and some were clearly still valuable as street cars, also some expensive driveline swaps etc.. Something change while we were away? The whole pointy end of the field sure got a lot faster!

You have to remember, it's a series run by journalists.

Journalists get bored.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Tech Escalation...

MZAVARIN wrote:

- no more nickels for prizes

There's still nickels for prizes depending on logistics and such.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Tech Escalation...

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

We are that team... IOE to C to B to A winner to win again and again... we got 6 penalty laps last race, 10 the race before that, 7 the race before that, 5 the race before that, Etc... It often prevents us from winning (actually 3 overall wins prevented by penalty laps).  We don’t cry foul.  We don’t stop coming.  Yes, the winning part might be a goal, but the racing part is what we come back for.

Having said this... there must be a significant difference in how things go regionally.

Speaking of, It's time you guys start thinking about a Save the Tata's style "Challenge re injector" That 5 series would make a pretty sweet boat now that 3PM finally put the sprite to rest.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Tech Escalation...

I’m not sure the 3-series will turn into anything else at this point.   Early on we themed the E30 multiple different ways... but that ship has sailed (bad pun).  We’ve done the 1000+ hour build with the last iteration of the Geo.

The effort it takes to build something unique is extraordinary.   We don’t really have team members motivated by that stuff now.  Most are interested in the competition (driving)  part... and the beer or bourbon drinking part.   

We get the concern over fast cars.

We may be building a car to better fit in to Chump’s and WRL’s rule book... it likely won’t be as good as the E30.  So it may be ok for Lemons also, but we’re not building it to a budget.  So... yeah. 

Guildenstern wrote:
TeamLemon-aid wrote:

We are that team... IOE to C to B to A winner to win again and again... we got 6 penalty laps last race, 10 the race before that, 7 the race before that, 5 the race before that, Etc... It often prevents us from winning (actually 3 overall wins prevented by penalty laps).  We don’t cry foul.  We don’t stop coming.  Yes, the winning part might be a goal, but the racing part is what we come back for.

Having said this... there must be a significant difference in how things go regionally.

Speaking of, It's time you guys start thinking about a Save the Tata's style "Challenge re injector" That 5 series would make a pretty sweet boat now that 3PM finally put the sprite to rest.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: Tech Escalation...

I mean, you get that Tatas wern’t given an option? It was do something stupid or retire the car.

I feel you on themes though. The journalists are over themes mostly because they don't have the cultural background to get most of them anymore. (Uncultured Swine is a term a team mate and I like to use)

Also I’m baffled that your current car ISN’T already a chump/WRL contender. How stupid crazy have they gotten?

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Tech Escalation...

Guildenstern wrote:

Also I’m baffled that your current car ISN’T already a chump/WRL contender. How stupid crazy have they gotten?

They were actually winning overall the Chump Road America race last October until clutch problems knocked them down a couple of spots.

Even better than knowing a fellow Lemons car was whooping it up on some real racers™ was hearing the organizers call their E30 a "Nuclear Weapon at a knife fight!"

The Pentastar whisperer

Re: Tech Escalation...

Our E30 is a fast junker that I think we drive fairly well.  It can win a Chump race, but it won’t “win” because it’s EC.   We have won our class at a couple WRL races and got a podium every time.   It’s fuel cell makes it illegal for WRL without spending $500 on displacement balls and the engine swap and fuel cell make it illegal for Chump. 

Also... Tata’s car was re-themed, but it’s just as fast as it ever was.

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.

Re: Tech Escalation...

Bayley wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

Also I’m baffled that your current car ISN’T already a chump/WRL contender. How stupid crazy have they gotten?

They were actually winning overall the Chump Road America race last October until clutch problems knocked them down a couple of spots.

Even better than knowing a fellow Lemons car was whooping it up on some real racers™ was hearing the organizers call their E30 a "Nuclear Weapon at a knife fight!"

No that Cayman that was at Nelson with a full two rig support crew was a nuke at a knife fight.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Tech Escalation...

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

Our E30 is a fast junker that I think we drive fairly well.  It can win a Chump race, but it won’t “win” because it’s EC.   We have won our class at a couple WRL races and got a podium every time.   It’s fuel cell makes it illegal for WRL without spending $500 on displacement balls and the engine swap and fuel cell make it illegal for Chump.

Ahh lame incompatible rules.

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

Also... Tata’s car was re-themed, but it’s just as fast as it ever was.

Yea, but now it’s cool.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: Tech Escalation...

TeamLemon-aid wrote:

Our E30 is a fast junker that I think we drive fairly well.  It can win a Chump race, but it won’t “win” because it’s EC.   We have won our class at a couple WRL races and got a podium every time.   It’s fuel cell makes it illegal for WRL without spending $500 on displacement balls and the engine swap and fuel cell make it illegal for Chump. 

Also... Tata’s car was re-themed, but it’s just as fast as it ever was.


Just out of curiosity, how many laps would the E30 get if you didn't run it in EC?

Your car is very fast and very well driven, we have competed against it at Barber for several seasons but eight overall is our best result.  I ask because we get laps in Chump for things that don't make us any faster.

I'm glad to hear you guys catch a couple of laps with Lemons....

whatever it was i didn't do it
dorifto dogs E30 - gone but not forgotten

Lee Ho Fook's Racing E36

Re: Tech Escalation...

It has an engine swap. So we’d be in the 800 point range. So no chance to compete with 30+ laps in an 8 hour race.

We’ll be at Barber again, but it will be with plenty of laps.  We’ll just try to be invisible out there.

soldmystang wrote:
TeamLemon-aid wrote:

Our E30 is a fast junker that I think we drive fairly well.  It can win a Chump race, but it won’t “win” because it’s EC.   We have won our class at a couple WRL races and got a podium every time.   It’s fuel cell makes it illegal for WRL without spending $500 on displacement balls and the engine swap and fuel cell make it illegal for Chump. 

Also... Tata’s car was re-themed, but it’s just as fast as it ever was.


Just out of curiosity, how many laps would the E30 get if you didn't run it in EC?

Your car is very fast and very well driven, we have competed against it at Barber for several seasons but eight overall is our best result.  I ask because we get laps in Chump for things that don't make us any faster.

I'm glad to hear you guys catch a couple of laps with Lemons....

LemonAid - Changing kids lives one lap at a time.