• echo6
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Topic: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

So the rule:
"4.2.1: Beside the items and processes listed in Section 3, the following are considered safety-related and therefore exempt:
Wheels, tires, wheel bearings, balljoints, and brake components
Exhaust systems downstream of the header/exhaust manifold (NOTE: Turbos and related components are NOT exempt from the $500 limit. Nice try.)
Windshields and wipers.
Driver comfort & information (steering wheel, shifter, gauges, pedals, cool suits, vents, heaters, radio)
All fuel hoses, fuel fittings, fuel filters, and related mounts
All fuel-system components upstream of the fuel pump, including tanks/cells, mounts, fillers, vents, etc. (NOTE: Fuel pumps, carburetors, injection pumps, computers, and individual injectors are NOT exempt from the $500 limit.)"

Does this mean?:

You could for instance have, forged wheels, Brembo / stoptech / endless brakes, Custom titanium exhaust, carbon seat etc?

Basically because these are listed as safety items could you get away with nicer parts and not be hit with BS laps? Or is this a grey area matter?

TIA

  • From: Birdsboro, PA
  • Registered: 2009-10-26
  • Posts: 892

Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

Yes, you're correct, those items do not get you any BS laps.  If a judge sees that sort of thing though, it is an indicator that they should look more closely at the rest of the car for hidden cheatonium.  This is car dependent though, if you have Brembos and Fiskes on a Renault Medallion or Chrysler Pacifica then you'll get a hearty well done and sent on your way with class C and zero laps. If it is on a BMW/Miata/other good car then you'll be sweated pretty hard.

Chris from 3 Pedal Mafia

3 Reply by chaase (edited by chaase 2020-03-02 06:24 PM)

  • chaase
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  • From: East Meadow, NY
  • Registered: 2009-08-06
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Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

Sonic wrote:

Yes, you're correct, those items do not get you any BS laps.  If a judge sees that sort of thing though, it is an indicator that they should look more closely at the rest of the car for hidden cheatonium.  This is car dependent though, if you have Brembos and Fiskes on a Renault Medallion or Chrysler Pacifica then you'll get a hearty well done and sent on your way with class C and zero laps. If it is on a BMW/Miata/other good car then you'll be sweated pretty hard.

That is absolutely correct. We spent a lot of time/money on getting the Javelin to stop. We converted it to 4 wheel disk with larger rotors, Wilwood calipers and bigger rims to handle it. The stock AMC 360 in '74 moves the approximately 3000lb car quite well and we wanted to make we could safely bring it to a stop on the track.

It comes down to the most basic, unwritten rule of Lemons. Bring a shitty car and you can pretty much do what you want. Jay and company never blinked at the amount of money we spent on the Rover, because it was terrible. We swapped the Rover for a Javelin and while it is an overall better platform, it still tortures us.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner
  • echo6
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Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

Sonic wrote:

Yes, you're correct, those items do not get you any BS laps.  If a judge sees that sort of thing though, it is an indicator that they should look more closely at the rest of the car for hidden cheatonium.  This is car dependent though, if you have Brembos and Fiskes on a Renault Medallion or Chrysler Pacifica then you'll get a hearty well done and sent on your way with class C and zero laps. If it is on a BMW/Miata/other good car then you'll be sweated pretty hard.

Thank you so much for the insight. Looking into what car to purchase that, sure may be within the rules however I want to do things within the spirit of Lemons. No one wants to be "that guy" especially if you enjoy it and want to keep coming back.
Instead of making a new thread I'll ask it here if anyone cares to respond:

thinking of getting an IS250/350 on Copart. They can be had for 1500-2300 with mild rear end damage (quarter panel). Could definitely sell 1000-1500 of parts off one. Seems like it would be a reliable car considering my experience with lexus / Toyota products but, would that be a douchey thing to do even if it falls within the rules? I think you get what I mean.

TIA

  • From: Elverson, PA
  • Registered: 2017-08-15
  • Posts: 1,124

Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

I have two sub-$400 "clear title, runs&drives" Lexi from auction, and, one $550 SC400 "salvage title" from Copart. You should be able to do even better than $1,500.

Or, check the "cars for sale" section in this forum.

You'll find links to many entertaining options.

  • echo6
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Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

I have two sub-$400 "clear title, runs&drives" Lexi from auction, and, one $550 SC400 "salvage title" from Copart. You should be able to do even better than $1,500.

Or, check the "cars for sale" section in this forum.

You'll find links to many entertaining options.

Awesome thank you for your response. I was only mentioning the ISX50 as my option since I haven't seen anyone run one to my knowledge yet and was thinking it might be perceived as a "cheaty" car even with honest accounting. Again, I want to stay in the spirit of Lemons and ultimately have fun. If I can do a race with as little maintenance as possible and make it to the finish that would be my goal realized. I think the ISX50 would be a good vessel to make that happen.

  • From: Elverson, PA
  • Registered: 2017-08-15
  • Posts: 1,124

Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

Right - go for it.

I bought my first Lexus because it was SO inexpensive. I figured, "How bad could it be? It's a Toyota. They run forever.".

No regrets here.

  • echo6
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Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

Right - go for it.

I bought my first Lexus because it was SO inexpensive. I figured, "How bad could it be? It's a Toyota. They run forever.".

No regrets here.

I feel like you're not saying something about how you ended up spending much more than you thought but, that's okay because if that ends up being the case I'll just have a laugh. And you should be having a laugh at my expense (no pun intended)

Cheers for the input

  • Registered: 2015-09-29
  • Posts: 78

Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

FWIW there was an IS-?50 at Buttonwillow 2018 (pretty sure). Was painted up like a tiger.  Don’t know team name /number.  They didn’t dominate.  Don’t know why. Your strategy is sound. Buy a pricey car and sell parts down to $0 instead a POS for $500 that doesn’t have a single valuable part. Something like a Dodge Neon may be available for $500ish, and potentially perform well, but it’s not exactly a gold mine of valuable interior parts.  Part of the reason that I built the car that I did was that the model is becoming semi collectible so selling bits and pieces got me to near $0 without too much headache.  Whatever you do, you’ll have fun and your tone sounds right on.  Spectate some races in the mean time and look into tow auctions too.  The DMV fees that destroy the cars’ value can be an asset to you.

Tri-Lamb Motorsports ‘87 528e
  • From: Elverson, PA
  • Registered: 2017-08-15
  • Posts: 1,124

Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

echo6 wrote:
Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

Right - go for it.

I bought my first Lexus because it was SO inexpensive. I figured, "How bad could it be? It's a Toyota. They run forever.".

No regrets here.

I feel like you're not saying something about how you ended up spending much more than you thought but, that's okay because if that ends up being the case I'll just have a laugh. And you should be having a laugh at my expense (no pun intended)

Cheers for the input

Actually, no hidden meaning. Run&drive, clear title for $310. If there _were_ serious mechanical issues, I'd get out of it easily with minimal loss.

Most difficult: finding an inexpensive taillight for an SC400 to get it inspected. But with patience, it showed up at a local PnP.

But of course, I don't need an OE taillight for Lemons...

  • Registered: 2013-11-15
  • Posts: 669

Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

I would expect a Lexus IS would already have decent brakes, you just need a quality RACE pad that will last all weekend on stock brakes and rotors.  Avoid drilled rotors, they will crack.  OEM wheels are probably lighter than aftermarket.

Spend your money on tires, race brake pads, lots of good fuel jugs, safety equipment and reliability first.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon
  • echo6
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Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

zakp73 wrote:

FWIW there was an IS-?50 at Buttonwillow 2018 (pretty sure). Was painted up like a tiger.  Don’t know team name /number.  They didn’t dominate.  Don’t know why. Your strategy is sound. Buy a pricey car and sell parts down to $0 instead a POS for $500 that doesn’t have a single valuable part. Something like a Dodge Neon may be available for $500ish, and potentially perform well, but it’s not exactly a gold mine of valuable interior parts.  Part of the reason that I built the car that I did was that the model is becoming semi collectible so selling bits and pieces got me to near $0 without too much headache.  Whatever you do, you’ll have fun and your tone sounds right on.  Spectate some races in the mean time and look into tow auctions too.  The DMV fees that destroy the cars’ value can be an asset to you.

That was an IS300. Have found 2 that have done Lemons (that one, and one at thunder hill 19' that was silver. Asking because the ISX50 is 2006 and newer which is definitely new in the realm of Lemons although seems like there are more plausible modern cars starting to do it. i.e. the 500 my ass 350Z, Cadillac CTS, B7 Audi A4


Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:
echo6 wrote:
Lemon_Newton-Metre wrote:

Right - go for it.

I bought my first Lexus because it was SO inexpensive. I figured, "How bad could it be? It's a Toyota. They run forever.".

No regrets here.

I feel like you're not saying something about how you ended up spending much more than you thought but, that's okay because if that ends up being the case I'll just have a laugh. And you should be having a laugh at my expense (no pun intended)

Cheers for the input

Actually, no hidden meaning. Run&drive, clear title for $310. If there _were_ serious mechanical issues, I'd get out of it easily with minimal loss.

Most difficult: finding an inexpensive taillight for an SC400 to get it inspected. But with patience, it showed up at a local PnP.

But of course, I don't need an OE taillight for Lemons...

Ah well thanks for that! I've looked at a bunch of series and no matter what racing always costs more than you expect but Lemons seems like the fun environment I'm looking for coupled with actual seat time and you still need to be inventive in your approach.

rb92673 wrote:

I would expect a Lexus IS would already have decent brakes, you just need a quality RACE pad that will last all weekend on stock brakes and rotors.  Avoid drilled rotors, they will crack.  OEM wheels are probably lighter than aftermarket.

Spend your money on tires, race brake pads, lots of good fuel jugs, safety equipment and reliability first.

IS350 comes stock with mono 4 pots so definitely slotted rotors, better lines and good pads. I think the engines are solid and are actually better when they're pushed. Cooling is the only real issue that I can figure.

Thank you so much for all your responses everyone. I can now look for an ISX50 in peace haha

  • Registered: 2011-10-14
  • Posts: 4,167

Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

echo6 wrote:

IS350 comes stock with mono 4 pots so definitely slotted rotors, better lines and good pads. I think the engines are solid and are actually better when they're pushed. Cooling is the only real issue that I can figure.

Thank you so much for all your responses everyone. I can now look for an ISX50 in peace haha

Please do skip the slotted rotors and driled rotors.  In the end you need quality blanks, MAYBE better lines (likely not), excellent quality racing DOT4 and excellent racing pads.  Extensive anecdotal evidence in this series says fancy rotors do not help...some hurt...a lot...in endurance racing.  Unless you can verify that manufacturer stress-relieves the rotors after fancy machining...run away.

Spend $200-350 on ST43 race pads and more like $30-50 on Centric blanks.  Then if you are super interested in brakes, spend time (and little money) on effect brake cooling ducts.

  • echo6
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Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

OnkelUdo wrote:
echo6 wrote:

IS350 comes stock with mono 4 pots so definitely slotted rotors, better lines and good pads. I think the engines are solid and are actually better when they're pushed. Cooling is the only real issue that I can figure.

Thank you so much for all your responses everyone. I can now look for an ISX50 in peace haha

Please do skip the slotted rotors and driled rotors.  In the end you need quality blanks, MAYBE better lines (likely not), excellent quality racing DOT4 and excellent racing pads.  Extensive anecdotal evidence in this series says fancy rotors do not help...some hurt...a lot...in endurance racing.  Unless you can verify that manufacturer stress-relieves the rotors after fancy machining...run away.

Spend $200-350 on ST43 race pads and more like $30-50 on Centric blanks.  Then if you are super interested in brakes, spend time (and little money) on effect brake cooling ducts.

Definitely DOT 4 or 5.1 fluid, that's a must. But blanks? Wouldn't those warp easily? Also considering that brakes are outside of the $500 it's not hard to imagine getting quality 2P rotors or like I mentioned in the first post going with a full proven BBK if it can be gotten. I obviously have no experience in this race and only have 1 track day in general under my belt but wouldn't making a car the most reliable and easiest to maintain over the course of the race ideal?

  • Registered: 2011-10-14
  • Posts: 4,167

Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

echo6 wrote:
OnkelUdo wrote:
echo6 wrote:

IS350 comes stock with mono 4 pots so definitely slotted rotors, better lines and good pads. I think the engines are solid and are actually better when they're pushed. Cooling is the only real issue that I can figure.

Thank you so much for all your responses everyone. I can now look for an ISX50 in peace haha

Please do skip the slotted rotors and driled rotors.  In the end you need quality blanks, MAYBE better lines (likely not), excellent quality racing DOT4 and excellent racing pads.  Extensive anecdotal evidence in this series says fancy rotors do not help...some hurt...a lot...in endurance racing.  Unless you can verify that manufacturer stress-relieves the rotors after fancy machining...run away.

Spend $200-350 on ST43 race pads and more like $30-50 on Centric blanks.  Then if you are super interested in brakes, spend time (and little money) on effect brake cooling ducts.

Definitely DOT 4 or 5.1 fluid, that's a must. But blanks? Wouldn't those warp easily? Also considering that brakes are outside of the $500 it's not hard to imagine getting quality 2P rotors or like I mentioned in the first post going with a full proven BBK if it can be gotten. I obviously have no experience in this race and only have 1 track day in general under my belt but wouldn't making a car the most reliable and easiest to maintain over the course of the race ideal?

Yes blanks but if you want to spend more money you can go cryo rotors.  We have yet to have a warped rotor (mostly a misnomer but happens in racing) even when we had the rotors glowing and everything else failed.  The most common rotor related issues are are heat checking after long term use.  I know of no competative team running slotted or drilled rotors in Lemons but I do not get to the coasts. 

It is not about money, it is about endurance...can your rotors last at least 7-8 hours and preferably 14.5-50.  Then if they last, it is only then about money.  FYI, re-emphasizing DOT4 RACING fluid with ATE Typ200 being the most common...you need to heat tolerance.  Same with real racing pads...spend you money there and spend you time on effective cooling.

16 Reply by chaase (edited by chaase 2020-03-04 08:00 AM)

  • chaase
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Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

OnkelUdo wrote:

Yes blanks but if you want to spend more money you can go cryo rotors.  We have yet to have a warped rotor (mostly a misnomer but happens in racing) even when we had the rotors glowing and everything else failed.  The most common rotor related issues are are heat checking after long term use.  I know of no competative team running slotted or drilled rotors in Lemons but I do not get to the coasts. 

It is not about money, it is about endurance...can your rotors last at least 7-8 hours and preferably 14.5-50.  Then if they last, it is only then about money.  FYI, re-emphasizing DOT4 RACING fluid with ATE Typ200 being the most common...you need to heat tolerance.  Same with real racing pads...spend you money there and spend you time on effective cooling.

/agree

I don't recall seeing anyone running drilled or slotted rotors in the Northeast. Your best choice is solid, vented rotors. You want the thermal mass of a solid rotor. If the rotors are overheating, then just add some extra ducting to help cool them.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner
  • Registered: 2013-11-15
  • Posts: 669

Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

echo6 wrote:

Definitely DOT 4 or 5.1 fluid, that's a must. But blanks? Wouldn't those warp easily? Also considering that brakes are outside of the $500 it's not hard to imagine getting quality 2P rotors or like I mentioned in the first post going with a full proven BBK if it can be gotten. I obviously have no experience in this race and only have 1 track day in general under my belt but wouldn't making a car the most reliable and easiest to maintain over the course of the race ideal?

Blanks rarely warp, most 'warping' is crappy brake pads distributing material unevenly on the rotor.  Run whatever rotors you want, but I suggest you bring a set up backup blanks in case the fancy rotors crack with heat.

ST43 pad material is easy on rotors, for a race pad, and will last a season.  Lots of threads about brake pads on this forum, it's no fun running out of brake pad before your first day is up.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon
  • From: Birdsboro, PA
  • Registered: 2009-10-26
  • Posts: 892

Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

+1 on all the brake advice.  Blank rotors, ST43 pads, excellent fluid (we run motul rbf600), and maybe some ducting.

Chris from 3 Pedal Mafia
  • echo6
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Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

I really appreciate all the feedback everyone!

  • From: St Louis
  • Registered: 2011-10-20
  • Posts: 2,611

Re: Questions about Rule 4.2.1

If you show up with a 22r powering that Lexus you will win the hearts and minds of the judges and admiration of your peers.

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
24x Loser with the Celica. 16x loser in other fine machines
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