Topic: Cage questions
We ordered an Autpower weld-in cage for our 2005 MINI Cooper. There is about 2.5" on either side of the main hoop between the cage and the B-pillar. I'm not sure what to do about it. Is this acceptable?
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We ordered an Autpower weld-in cage for our 2005 MINI Cooper. There is about 2.5" on either side of the main hoop between the cage and the B-pillar. I'm not sure what to do about it. Is this acceptable?
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I would contact Autopower and ask them if this is normal.
Also is the gap consistent from the top to the bottom of the down tube?
In one case that I saw this happen we shifted the main hoop to the drivers side and lived with the gap on the passenger side.
Your putting in a cage to protect the driver.
Your not going to have a passenger.
In a perfect world you would have the main hoop just barely fitting between the "B" pillars but since you gap could be as much as 5 inches I would check with the Lemons for their OK.
Got in touch with autopower. They said that their cages are made to fit the stock interior, so I guess the gap makes sense in that regard.
I can see you having issues with the diagonal brace on the main hoop. It is really far from the corner of the main hoop. I know it doesn't have to be exact but that seems pretty far away.
That diagonal is perfect and perfectly fine. It allows the seat to be tipped back and not be impeded by hitting the diagonal.
Shame to leave all of that space go unused.
Consider contacting John Pagel who is also the head of tech for Lemons: He can sell you a pre-bent cage for a MINI since he's done a few of them in his shop. I've seen them and they are tight fitting. Of course that makes them more difficult to weld, but end result is more safety bubble for the driver.
The word from on high is that it's "Not great, but not necessarily illegal". The harness bar is touch too high.
That diagonal is perfect and perfectly fine. It allows the seat to be tipped back and not be impeded by hitting the diagonal.
Shame to leave all of that space go unused.
Consider contacting John Pagel who is also the head of tech for Lemons: He can sell you a pre-bent cage for a MINI since he's done a few of them in his shop. I've seen them and they are tight fitting. Of course that makes them more difficult to weld, but end result is more safety bubble for the driver.
If its good then its good. I was looking at the "How not to fail tech" document and the pictures show it going all the way to the corner. When we build cages, we try to stick to as close to the diagram as possible to prevent issues/rework .
For some reason, I thought there were some bars where the distance mattered from the corner but I may not be remembering correctly.
EDIT: I may be thinking of the back-stays. If the back-stays are too far from the corner, they won't work as well.
I would contact Autopower and ask them if this is normal.
Also is the gap consistent from the top to the bottom of the down tube?In one case that I saw this happen we shifted the main hoop to the drivers side and lived with the gap on the passenger side.
Your putting in a cage to protect the driver.
Your not going to have a passenger.In a perfect world you would have the main hoop just barely fitting between the "B" pillars but since you gap could be as much as 5 inches I would check with the Lemons for their OK.
If possible, shifting the main hoop might help with the door bars. It looks like it may be a bit tight to get the door bars in there. They can be bent so it may be a non-issue.
That diagonal is perfect and perfectly fine. It allows the seat to be tipped back and not be impeded by hitting the diagonal.
I hadn't thought of that. It does, however, look like the diagonal will block the view from the center mirror to a much greater extent than a more, um, diagonal diagonal would. This impression may just be due to the angle of the photo, though.
Does the "helmet 2 inches inside the cage" rule apply to the vertical plane of the main hoop? or does the area created by the backstays count as inside the cage? I mean, if the back of your helmet is rearward of the main hoop, is that ok if its still 2 inches inside the backstays?
Rule 3.E.1. states:
" ... On all sides, all drivers’ helmeted heads must be at least two inches inside the area enclosed by the cage. ..."
Here's where a more accurate, specific description would be useful - and I admit I'm not the best one to do so, however:
I suggest something like:
" The helmet must be at least 2" inside the surface of the volume defined and occupied by the exterior dimensions of the cage. "
would be better.
How To Not Fail Lemons Tech Inspection, p. 7/22 Rollcage fig 4, helmet clearance"
So, the cage is not a container which encloses a volume like a saucepan. It's more like a frame you can throw a bedsheet [or shrinkwrap] over, and the _bedsheet_ encloses the volume.
The rule also states:
"At minimum, cage must include: Full front and rear hoop, [edited]... appropriate main-hoop backstays";
so: backstays are part of the cage.
Some have mentioned a "broomstick test", which has been described as:
'put a broomstick on the outside of the cage - the helmet must clear the broomstick by 2 inches'
And stuff like this is why most club rulebooks are impenetrable hundred page nightmares.
And stuff like this is why most club rulebooks are impenetrable hundred page nightmares.
Agreed, but:
tl;dr:
How about:
" ... On all sides, all drivers’ helmeted heads must be at least two inches inside the volume defined by the cage. Don't know what this means? [in the spirit of the 'voice' of the rules as written] Stretch a bedsheet over the frame. Keep at least two inches away from the sheet. ..."
//
Again, for ease of reference:
Rule 3.E.1:
" ... On all sides, all drivers’ helmeted heads must be at least two inches inside the area enclosed by the cage. ..."
//
As written, the rule is nonsensical, because in this context,
1. "area" is simply the wrong word for a 3-dimensional "thing", and
2. "enclosed by" has given several (including me, until I saw the illustration and asked questions previously) the impression that the cage surrounds the 'permissible space', and that the helmet needed to be 2" from the _cage_ also, so you didn't bump your helmet on the cage.
And the question continues to be raised, despite the illustration.
So if someone is just going to read the articles, and _not_ look at the pictures, why do they keep them behind the counter? Oh, sorry, wrong publication...
Because:
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Questions will always be raised because hell, even pro cage builders sometime seem to have a problem reading the damn rules.
Guildenstern wrote:And stuff like this is why most club rulebooks are impenetrable hundred page nightmares.
Agreed, but:
tl;dr:
How about:
" ... On all sides, all drivers’ helmeted heads must be at least two inches inside the volume defined by the cage. Don't know what this means? [in the spirit of the 'voice' of the rules as written] Stretch a bedsheet over the frame. Keep at least two inches away from the sheet. ..."//
Again, for ease of reference:Rule 3.E.1:
" ... On all sides, all drivers’ helmeted heads must be at least two inches inside the area enclosed by the cage. ..."
//As written, the rule is nonsensical, because in this context,
1. "area" is simply the wrong word for a 3-dimensional "thing", and
2. "enclosed by" has given several (including me, until I saw the illustration and asked questions previously) the impression that the cage surrounds the 'permissible space', and that the helmet needed to be 2" from the _cage_ also, so you didn't bump your helmet on the cage.And the question continues to be raised, despite the illustration.
So if someone is just going to read the articles, and _not_ look at the pictures, why do they keep them behind the counter? Oh, sorry, wrong publication...Because:
Lemons Tech: 3,460 _topics_
Search "cage": 9,280 posts
Your head contacting the cage is why you are supposed to have padding on any bars where your helmet could contact the cage.
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