Re: Lemons car info

Thank you Stan.
Your report was well written.
Much better than my blurb.

I glad the racer was able to walk away from his crash.
Bob

Former Captain
1996 Crown Vic. #55
Team Racing Cosmo

Re: Lemons car info

For early days, before you really start competing for class wins, you can go easy on tire expenditures. I wouldn’t recommend just grabbing all the used tires you have around and running those, although I have done that without incident (burned 14 tires to cords by the end of the weekend, actually...) Riken Raptors are a good deal and hold up fine under a two ton Benz driven hard, in my experience.

Just get a good fabricator with a track record of building Lemons cages to build the cage and be done with it. Our guy has done three cages for cars I’ve been involved with and I won’t use anyone else. He stepped up most recently after the first guy we hired FLAKED OUT three weeks from race day. Got it done and through tech with no fixes needed. I won’t be using anyone else in the future.

Tradewinds Tribesmen Racing (The road goes on forever…)
#289 1984 Corvette Z51 #124 1984 944 #110 2002 Passat
Gone but not forgotten, #427-Hong Kong Cavaliers Benz S500
IOE (Humber!) Hell on Wheels (Jaguar)

Re: Lemons car info

One quick note or two on the GTP as an option:

Trans are by far the weak link...cool the crap out of it and I would bring a spare used one.
Service the Supercharger...make sure the cush drive is good and change (the second most foul smelling on earth) oil.
Make sure the plastic coolant elbows are changed out to metal.
Borrow the coolant pressure tester from a chain store and leave it on overnight...if it leaks down, there is a chance you have a lower manifold intake gasket leak...it will get catastrophically worse at a race.
Consider grabbing a whole spare ignition unit with coils from the PnP and install it up front.  IF it works right, mark the old one "known good" and throw it in the spares.  You will need a coil or the ignition unit in your first or second race.  I got our last two for about $35 with core charges.
If there is any indication of the rear valve cover gasket leaking...change it in the shop.
If there is any indication the harmonic balancer/main pulley is going to fail (cracks, already spinning on the hub, etc), replace it AND the crank position sensor in the shop.
You can, and should, overfill the engine by at least a quart of oil...we did as much as a 1.5 quarts but that might be a bit much.

Again, #1 thing, after safety, is reliability.  With the auto still on your car the #1 point of failure is ignition and and #2 is the trans.

Ping me if you have any 3800 questions as we have run and NA series 1.5 in the Van for more than 5 years and an L67 in the '47 Plymouth for about three years.  Engines have been super reliable...4T60E was not and electrics are not.

Re: Lemons car info

What about a G-body? Tons around... Parts are cheap (even cheaty parts)

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Lemons car info

bronsonjones wrote:

I hope this is posted in the right area. I have been wanting to race at a Lemons event for ever! and I want to ask a few questions.
also by the way my goal would be to race early 2021 and start prepping now.

1. car suggestions or opinions? I like the idea of a clapped out Pontiac grand Prix gtp (supercharged v6) and my other thought would be any v8 american car pre 1984(I know I can tune up carbs easily and to be honest I hate efi until obdII standard.)

2. safety stuff. do you all build your own cages? can they be mig welded or do they need to be professionally done tig welded cages? (couldn't find any info on this site). also were would you suggest looking for racing suits and misc saftey gear? I would assume not on amazon lol.

3. tires tires tires!!! is there any tires you can recommend? is the minimum tread wear 200 if I remember correctly?

4. Any wisdom you can bestow upon me would be great! thanks in advance!!!

My 2 cents!!  Hope some of this helps.

1.  Both of your ideas are good ones!  I have seen both cars do well.  In both cases if you get an automatic car (which the GTP will be!) make sure to run the BIGGEST trans cooler you can get in the car.  We used one out of a box truck and even that was barely able to do the job.

2.  We build our own cages, I have some AMAZING fab guys on my team and they earn it every day.  Other teams will send the car out to a local race/fab shop  and others will order pre bent cages and weld them in.  This is one place not to skimp.  If you don't know how to weld you better make sure you get someone that does.  If you buy a pre bent cage, don't buy crap and make sure its all legal before you weld it in, I have seen kinks in some of the ready made cages.  Read the "how not to fail tech" and make sure you have it right.  Safety is no joke at Lemons and if your cage/car is bad they can and have sent teams home.  The best bet for safety gear is right here!  Go to the Lemons store and order up yourself a Lemons gear kit.  You KNOW its legal and its a good price, I used that kit for over 3 years and then upgraded. 

3.  Like others have said there are a lot of opinions on what is best.  Also what works on my car, might not work on your car due to all the differences.  But yes 200 or higher treadwear,  I run the Azenis 615K and love them! 

4.  Worry about having fun and finishing your first race!  As a rookie its going to take a bit to get used to how it goes.  Besides being safe don't forget to feed and water you and your team during a race.  Plan on food and if you can bring someone to help cook and take care of the team.

Team Sucker Punch: Winner Class B Doing Time at Joliet 2023 Autobahn ,Winner Org Choice award Were the Elite Meet to Cheat 2015
Chevy Camaro (Tiger striped #38)  (1989-2017 RIP old friend)
Chevy Corvette 1984......and still racing!

Re: Lemons car info

Tiptoe the rat wrote:

2.  We build our own cages, I have some AMAZING fab guys on my team and they earn it every day.  Other teams will send the car out to a local race/fab shop  and others will order pre bent cages and weld them in.  This is one place not to skimp.  If you don't know how to weld you better make sure you get someone that does.  If you buy a pre bent cage, don't buy crap and make sure its all legal before you weld it in, I have seen kinks in some of the ready made cages.  Read the "how not to fail tech" and make sure you have it right.  Safety is no joke at Lemons and if your cage/car is bad they can and have sent teams home.  The best bet for safety gear is right here!  Go to the Lemons store and order up yourself a Lemons gear kit.  You KNOW its legal and its a good price, I used that kit for over 3 years and then upgraded.

One note on the pre-bent cages.  There are companies out there that sell “Lemons legal” cages that aren’t legal, aren’t legal without modifications, or are less than ideal.  Example is the cages from Rhodes racing. They are designed to be installed with a full interior. This makes them very tight cages. Seat placement may make them fail the helmet clearance rule.

Search the forums for reputable companies. We typically use Rollcage Components.

Re: Lemons car info

rlchv70 wrote:
Tiptoe the rat wrote:

2.  We build our own cages, I have some AMAZING fab guys on my team and they earn it every day.  Other teams will send the car out to a local race/fab shop  and others will order pre bent cages and weld them in.  This is one place not to skimp.  If you don't know how to weld you better make sure you get someone that does.  If you buy a pre bent cage, don't buy crap and make sure its all legal before you weld it in, I have seen kinks in some of the ready made cages.  Read the "how not to fail tech" and make sure you have it right.  Safety is no joke at Lemons and if your cage/car is bad they can and have sent teams home.  The best bet for safety gear is right here!  Go to the Lemons store and order up yourself a Lemons gear kit.  You KNOW its legal and its a good price, I used that kit for over 3 years and then upgraded.

One note on the pre-bent cages.  There are companies out there that sell “Lemons legal” cages that aren’t legal, aren’t legal without modifications, or are less than ideal.  Example is the cages from Rhodes racing. They are designed to be installed with a full interior. This makes them very tight cages. Seat placement may make them fail the helmet clearance rule.

Search the forums for reputable companies. We typically use Rollcage Components.

Yes indeed!  We ran into this issue with our Camaro, thankfully we figured it out and made some changes before we showed up to our first race.  I have heard great things about Rollcage components, but never used them myself.   I guess a simple rule of thumb is....don't buy crap!   The cheap cage kits are the ones that are always kinked, bent wrong, not enough bars etc.

Team Sucker Punch: Winner Class B Doing Time at Joliet 2023 Autobahn ,Winner Org Choice award Were the Elite Meet to Cheat 2015
Chevy Camaro (Tiger striped #38)  (1989-2017 RIP old friend)
Chevy Corvette 1984......and still racing!

Re: Lemons car info

I'm by no means an expert but I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring. 

You are not making a car, you are making a tool.  The tool is designed to beat other drivers.  The best tools are simple, reliable and easy to fix. 

If you could find something pre 84 there is going to be a problem with steering as leaf spring was still the main stay.  I would go find a 90 something f or g body in a gravel lot.  Completely gut it.  I mean everything except the driveshaft, axles, and steering column.  Get a redone sbc, they're all over craigslist for about a grand without a carb.  A v6 might be better for mpg but I cant say how they do for reliability.  Naturally aspirated is the way to go.  You won't over tax the motor and do not add complexity.  If you want more power, there are many ways to do it.  A redone transmission is around 1500. 

Change the ring and pinion to minimize the need for shifting.  There are calculators everywhere for that.  Replace all wheel bearings and axle bearings.  Brakes are not included in the 500 so convert to disk all around and get the best pads you can from a chain parts store.  Better stuff is available like willwood and brembo and baer but you cant always find replacements in stock.  Tires are not included in the cost.  Get new tires for your safety and for everyone else, last thing you want is a blowout.  Hotrod has a good article on 200 treadwear tires.  Switch to coil over suspension.  Less body roll and better traction.

Since you are using a carb, you only need power to the starter, distributor, brake lights, fuel pump and switch.  Replace the key on the wheel with a push button like on old tractors.  Never loose the key and it gets rid of safety locks.  Use a mechanical water pump.  You can even make the fuel pump a flip switch.  I would even get rid of the power steering and assisted brakes. 

By doing this you've addressed every major issue you would experience and made diagnosis and repair a breeze.  No computers, no mystery wires, no added weight or complexity.  A carb is not as efficient as efi and coil packs but its cheaper, easier to diagnose and easier to repair.  Because you're down grading the car, you probably wont get penalty laps unless you go crazy on the motor and suspension upgrades. And to boot your out of pocket cost won't be as high as you think. Get a car with a decent interior that doesn't have a rod knock and you can almost break even if you're patient on ebay.  To get everything you need for safety is around 3k plus the cost of a good welder.  Unless you get a 5 thousand dollar crate engine, you'll come close to breaking even, maybe profit if you're good. 

Hope this helps.  Let the experts who know guide you but this is the set up I'll be running on my 91 camerobird.

Re: Lemons car info

^ One thing Lemons has taught is that the obvious isn't.  The most reliable stock engines in Lemons?  Alfa V6 and Volvo redblock.  Among the least reliable stock engines?  Honda and SBC .  The first two are not most people's first choices when they think of reliability.  With all due respect, almost every one of your suggestions has gone wrong for somebody(s) at some point over the last 14 years.  For example, SBCs blow up.  A lot.  The ones that don't are usually 2bbl and keep revs very low.  Like 4000 or 4500.  The Chev V6 I believe has a much better reliability record in Lemons than SBC.  What people often don't understand is that there is a vast difference between a car running hard for a few seconds/minutes and 8+ hours straight.  So what you say in theory should work out but I wouldn't put money on it in practice.  Also, gutting anything structural/part of crush structure without consulting John Pagel is not recommended.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Lemons car info

cheseroo wrote:

^ One thing Lemons has taught is that the obvious isn't.  The most reliable stock engines in Lemons?  Alfa V6 and Volvo redblock.  Among the least reliable stock engines?  Honda and SBC .  The first two are not most people's first choices when they think of reliability.  With all due respect, almost every one of your suggestions has gone wrong for somebody(s) at some point over the last 14 years.  For example, SBCs blow up.  A lot.  The ones that don't are usually 2bbl and keep revs very low.  Like 4000 or 4500.  The Chev V6 I believe has a much better reliability record in Lemons than SBC.  What people often don't understand is that there is a vast difference between a car running hard for a few seconds/minutes and 8+ hours straight.  So what you say in theory should work out but I wouldn't put money on it in practice.  Also, gutting anything structural/part of crush structure without consulting John Pagel is not recommended.

I cant say about the engines you suggest but you are much more experienced so I would take your advice over mine.  SBC blow a lot.  I forgot to mention set a rev limit to about 5500.  And absolutely do not touch the car frame or body.  OEM crush structure is new and should be followed.  Doors, hood, fenders, bumpers, keep everything.  Cutting an access hole for the top bolt in the bell housing is not big deal but dont change anything that puts you in a gray area of the rules.  That all said, including my previous post, I'm a backyard mechanic thats green to Lemons.  No plan survives first contact.  Bring a spare everything, but what you need will always be back at your shop.