Topic: Silly shifting question

My only experience on a track has been using manual transmissions with straight cut gears. That would be normal heal toe shifting. Our car is a 2005 Dodge Neon 2.0L with a 5 speed synchromesh transmission.
Will I need to use the same heal toe shifting and a blip of the throttle?

Regards,

Philip

2 (edited by keycat 2021-04-30 03:30 AM)

Re: Silly shifting question

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Re: Silly shifting question

Yes. The fundamental point of heel and toe applies no matter the style of manual transmission. You are making sure all the spinning parts are at the same speed before you connect them again so that you don't upset the car. You don't want to be coming into a corner while letting out the clutch into the lower gear and then have to drag the engine up to the right rpm because that can induce a spin.

With a normal street transmission you don't have to worry about matching the gear speeds to get the transmission into gear, but you still need to worry about the engine RPM matching the gear you selected before the clutch is let out.

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Re: Silly shifting question

Thank you!  I will make sure my team understands.

Re: Silly shifting question

keycat wrote:

Our car is a 2005 Dodge Neon 2.0L with a 5 speed synchromesh transmission.
Will I need to use the same heal toe shifting and a blip of the throttle?

I raced Neons for years. I did a lot of blipping under braking. I found there were some nuances with the neon (and most street cars I raced). The trick is to have the revs running up, rather than down, when you release the clutch. So, a blip is certainly in order, as The Engineer says. Does not have to be as smooth to rev match perfectly, but enough to smooth out the downshifts.

Of course with a crash box, you need to match revs pretty closely before the trans will drop into gear. Double clutch downshift is ideal there.

--bb

Re: Silly shifting question

keycat wrote:

My only experience on a track has been using manual transmissions with straight cut gears. That would be normal heal toe shifting. Our car is a 2005 Dodge Neon 2.0L with a 5 speed synchromesh transmission.
Will I need to use the same heal toe shifting and a blip of the throttle?

Regards,

Philip



What's heal toe? Joking of course but I have never tried it or felt the need...

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Silly shifting question

If you aren't rev matching your downshifts you aren't braking very well.  A properly set-up car will lock the fronts just a tick earlier than the rears (for safety reasons), and chucking on a pulse of engine braking while at the limit will lock the rears and often send the car sideways.  Yes I know there is such a thing as front-wheel drive but I don't care.

So if you are getting away without heel-toe either the car has way too much front brake bias or you are leaving a lot on the table in the braking zones.

I am aware that Lemons isn't necessarily a limit brake all the time kind of series, but sometimes a race does happen.  Speed follows from technique, so learn all the techniques if you want to be fast.

Re: Silly shifting question

hoverducky wrote:

If you aren't rev matching your downshifts you aren't braking very well.  A properly set-up car will lock the fronts just a tick earlier than the rears (for safety reasons), and chucking on a pulse of engine braking while at the limit will lock the rears and often send the car sideways.  Yes I know there is such a thing as front-wheel drive but I don't care.

So if you are getting away without heel-toe either the car has way too much front brake bias or you are leaving a lot on the table in the braking zones.

I am aware that Lemons isn't necessarily a limit brake all the time kind of series, but sometimes a race does happen.  Speed follows from technique, so learn all the techniques if you want to be fast.

We run C6 Brakes up front, the slow the car down fine, we don't use the gears to slow the car down and I've never not been able to match RPMs with speed. But we run a pretty strong 305 so maybe heal toe isn't as important. Our last Lemons event at NJMP we were probably one of the fastest cars on the track.

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrE19h … i68idyWqc-

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Silly shifting question

I stand by my statements.  However fast you think you are, you'd be faster if you were driving properly.

Re: Silly shifting question

hoverducky wrote:

I stand by my statements.  However fast you think you are, you'd be faster if you were driving properly.

doubtful, one millisecond on/off the gas isn't going to gain much. But having a strong engine that gets you down the straight and a great braking system to get you slowed down into turn one will. That slight blip might cause you to push... But to each his/her own. If it works for you good.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Silly shifting question

Properly done heel/toe shifting should cause zero upset to the car. If you're worried that it could cause push or other upset that tells me you aren't rev matching correctly. And watching the video link you posted, are you even rev matching your down shifts? Or are you just letting the clutch out and letting the car drag the engine to the right place? Because if it's the later, that's going to send you into a wall again someday.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Turbo Dodge Powered E36 Build
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Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Silly shifting question

TheEngineer wrote:

Properly done heel/toe shifting should cause zero upset to the car. If you're worried that it could cause push or other upset that tells me you aren't rev matching correctly. And watching the video link you posted, are you even rev matching your down shifts? Or are you just letting the clutch out and letting the car drag the engine to the right place? Because if it's the later, that's going to send you into a wall again someday.


That wasn't me, but we don't use the gear box to slow the car down....brakes are cheaper than T5 parts.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: Silly shifting question

There has been a lot of bad advice given on these forums over the years.  "Just buy brake pads from Autozone", and "when you tear down your engine just throw all the bolts in a bucket because a bolt is a bolt" come to mind.

"I've never bothered to learn about what is overwhelmingly considered a crucial braking technique because fast car" isn't technically advice but the implication still puts it in that same category.

Maybe there is some confusion about what heel/toe is?  Maybe?  It generally refers to rev-matching downshifts regardless of which foot or part of the foot is being used. 

If one is downshifting one's conventional manual transmission (syncro or dog-box) without matching revs one is leaving time on the table and wearing stuff out, plus risking a spin on entry in the case of rear-wheel drive.  That's not subject to debate despite current indications to the contrary.

Re: Silly shifting question

When I started road racing seriously in the 1990's, my instructors placed a premium on foot work. Of course, that was driving a formula car that A) was east to upset, B) had a crash box, and C) could be easily over-revved if not driven properly. They taught footwork before they taught us about apexes. Since the cars were not mine, I listened carefully and worked hard on my footwork.

Footwork is important in racing a street car, although maybe not as important as a in a formula car. Honestly, I have stopped focusing on footwork when coaching newer drivers. This discussion is a good reminder to get the driving fundamentals right.

--bb