Topic: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

Click here for Assigned Tech Times (also found on the event page and will be emailed with general final-week notes Monday or Tuesday).

Usual deal: Click here if it embeds with shit resolution. Finally, we're getting the Vega vs. Pinto battle we've always wanted, plus Lemons' first turn-of-the-century Malibu, a Bosozoku Forester, and perhaps validation of the idea that Hyundai/Kia out of warranty are indeed completely worthless.

https://i.imgur.com/0qlvLtj.jpg

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

Very nice!  Can hardly wait!

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

It’s good to see that only 1 out of every 3 cars is a Miata or BMW.  Happy to hear that they are making any Miata or BMW start on lap according to this equation……  1900 – Year built = lap number you start on.

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

Always a lot of Miatas and BMWs at HPR and in general in Lemons. 

I looked at the entrants from all the races from 2020 thru current where I could find the images (I didn't see Inde's) and put together some rough stats (not perfect but there are some clear trends):

Percentage of signups:

Combined:
-304 out of 1370 overall signups (22%) were either Miatas or BMWs
-11 out of 16 races had over 20% of the signups be either Miatas or BMWs (the Gingerman and Thomson events had the lowest percentages at 13-16%)

Miatas:
-113 out of 1370 overall signups (8%) were Miatas
-7 out of 16 races had Miatas make up over 10% of signups
-the 3/27/21 NOLA race had the highest percentage of Miata signups (18%) followed closely by the upcoming HPR 6/5/21 race (17%)

BMWs:
-191 out of 1370 overall signups (14%) were BMWs
-all 16 races had BMWs make up over 10% of signups
-the 2/1/20 Barber race had the highest percentage of BMW signups (23%) followed by the MSR and NHMS events (both at 17%)

Percentage of wins:
-BMWs took 11/45 (24%) of the 2020-current class trophies
-Miatas took 1/45 (2%) of the 2020-current class trophies
-BMWs took 7/15 (47%) of the 2020-current winner on lap trophies
-Miatas took 1/15 (7%) of the 2020-current winner on lap trophies


We're running two Miatas for the HPR race.  The purple car will likely get a bunch of well-deserved penalty laps (I ain't gonna complain) and the yellow car "shouldn't" (it's a true $0 starting car with less than $500 in upgraded suspension).  It'd be a shame if the non-cheaty yellow Miata got penalized just for being a Miata.  Whatevs though.  Not my call to make.

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

bspeed wrote:

It’s good to see that only 1 out of every 3 cars is a Miata or BMW.  Happy to hear that they are making any Miata or BMW start on lap according to this equation……  1900 – Year built = lap number you start on.

Wait, really?

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

duthehustle93 wrote:
bspeed wrote:

It’s good to see that only 1 out of every 3 cars is a Miata or BMW.  Happy to hear that they are making any Miata or BMW start on lap according to this equation……  1900 – Year built = lap number you start on.

Wait, really?

Us non-miata/bmw drivers can only hope....  smile

They could just put only Miata and BMW's in class A....and start them all on lap -75.  Heck that is 30% of the field.  They would probably still win overall, but at least it would be a fair opportunity that class B cars would make a fight of it.

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

bspeed wrote:
duthehustle93 wrote:
bspeed wrote:

It’s good to see that only 1 out of every 3 cars is a Miata or BMW.  Happy to hear that they are making any Miata or BMW start on lap according to this equation……  1900 – Year built = lap number you start on.

Wait, really?

Us non-miata/bmw drivers can only hope....  smile

They could just put only Miata and BMW's in class A....and start them all on lap -75.  Heck that is 30% of the field.  They would probably still win overall, but at least it would be a fair opportunity that class B cars would make a fight of it.

Cant beat em then join em?

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

Nice win Max....whats the % wins now?  Cheaty Miatas 1st and 2nd.  Bmw's and Miatas 7 out of the top 10.....with a crazy cheaty 350z in there to shake it up.

Raise a beer to the spirt of Lemons winners.....Dropped Packet and Salty Thunder!!

9 (edited by Max 2021-06-09 07:20 AM)

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

bspeed wrote:

Nice win Max....whats the % wins now?  Cheaty Miatas 1st and 2nd.  Bmw's and Miatas 7 out of the top 10.....with a crazy cheaty 350z in there to shake it up.

Raise a beer to the spirt of Lemons winners.....Dropped Packet and Salty Thunder!!

Ha, yeah, I've never expected to win in that purple car.  I thought we'd get penalized to the moon like we did at the true 24 back in September.  When we were given the choice of no penalty laps with extra long penalties for black flags or a few penalty laps with regular black flags I chose the former as our team generally runs clean (especially with the prospect of longer black flag penalties hanging over our heads).  The yellow Miata we also ran was a true $500 car and, if it wasn't plagued by mechanical issues, could have likely placed in the top 10 or even top 5. 

The other three Miatas in the top 10 weren't nearly as cheaty as us.  In fact I'll bet they would each easily fall under the $500 rule.  They just ran good races. 

The percentage of wins by Miatas is still low.  If you want to just look at HPR races for 2021 then I guess Miatas have won 100% but overall they still don't win often. 

Also - if you think those BMWs are really cheaty per the $500 rule you might want to look into what old BMWs go for and how fantastic they are with basically no modifications at all.  Me going with a Miata was an emotional choice as I love Miatas.  An E36/E46 can be put together following the $500 rule and mop the floor with most any of the competition.  If someone really wants to dominate in Lemons and follow the rules they go with older BMWs.  Simple as that.  They aren't "cheaty" unless your definition of cheaty is "anything that's a BMW". 

Times are movin' on and there will be more modern cars racing that were put together under the $500 rule.  Just because they're newer and/or were sold as sports cars doesn't mean they can't be had for cheap. 

Hats off to Dropped Packet Racing and Salty Thunder.  They both ran a great race.  Those cars are crazy quick when they put their hot shoe drivers behind their respective wheels.

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

Max wrote:
bspeed wrote:

Nice win Max....whats the % wins now?  Cheaty Miatas 1st and 2nd.  Bmw's and Miatas 7 out of the top 10.....with a crazy cheaty 350z in there to shake it up.

Raise a beer to the spirt of Lemons winners.....Dropped Packet and Salty Thunder!!

Ha, yeah, I've never expected to win in that purple car.  I thought we'd get penalized to the moon like we did at the true 24 back in September.  When we were given the choice of no penalty laps with extra long penalties for black flags or a few penalty laps with regular black flags I chose the former as our team generally runs clean (especially with the prospect of longer black flag penalties hanging over our heads).  The yellow Miata we also ran was a true $500 car and, if it wasn't plagued by mechanical issues, could have likely placed in the top 10 or even top 5. 

The other three Miatas in the top 10 weren't nearly as cheaty as us.  In fact I'll bet they would each easily fall under the $500 rule.  They just ran good races. 

The percentage of wins by Miatas is still low.  If you want to just look at HPR races for 2021 then I guess Miatas have won 100% but overall they still don't win often. 

Also - if you think those BMWs are really cheaty per the $500 rule you might want to look into what old BMWs go for and how fantastic they are with basically no modifications at all.  Me going with a Miata was an emotional choice as I love Miatas.  An E36/E46 can be put together following the $500 rule and mop the floor with most any of the competition.  If someone really wants to dominate in Lemons and follow the rules they go with older BMWs.  Simple as that.  They aren't "cheaty" unless your definition of cheaty is "anything that's a BMW". 

Times are movin' on and there will be more modern cars racing that were put together under the $500 rule.  Just because they're newer and/or were sold as sports cars doesn't mean they can't be had for cheap. 

Hats off to Dropped Packet Racing and Salty Thunder.  They both ran a great race.  Those cars are crazy quick when they put their hot shoe drivers behind their respective wheels.

+1 to this. We have a miata because we also love miatas and have a handful among our team and race the faster ones in other (more serious/less fun) series. We never have to change out spare parts or tools in the trailer, know how they work, and when we go to a different series we just switch the miata in the trailer and hitch and go. Ours ended up being a $0 car after selling enough parts off it, and we built it using hand-me-down parts from our other miatas. Sure, each corner has a different spring rate with varying amount of blown, but boy do we have fun being out there. The competition is for $500 race cars, so it seems fairly obvious that a lot of the field would be BMWs and miatas. Admittedly, we actually wanted something that doesn't belong on a race track, but as a team we decided that we wanted to race as cheap as possible and keep our car out there to squeeze every dollar out of our entry fee. Because we had so many parts laying around it costed only fuel and entry to start up our team.

I guess my point to bspeed is that I would venture to say most BMW and miata guys just wanna race w2w for cheap in a light-hearted environment and not spend $1400 to wrench on their car in a pit. I have huge respect for the guys who run the weird things, and so do the judges, but we didn't have the financial backing to run something weird. In terms of winning, it doesn't seem like anyone really cares about winning (at least we don't) because were too busy having fun.

11 (edited by Max 2021-06-09 09:46 AM)

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

Ha, I reread my reply and I think I come across like I believe all Lemons BMW owners are there just to win - I do not believe this at all and agree with duthehustle93 that most everyone is just out to have fun.  Believe the hype.  BMWs and Miatas are really great cars on the track. 

I kinda wish there was an unranked class in Lemons that I could run in and avoid the name calling.  Maybe it would be something like EC in Champcar where, as long as the cars aren't too fast and the drivers aren't jerks, you can basically do whatever you want.  No prize money, no overall winning, just fun.  If we do ever drive Champcar I'll run in EC for sure.  All the fun and none of the worrying about winning over "better deserving" cars.

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

Max wrote:

I kinda wish there was an unranked class in Lemons that I could run in and avoid the name calling.  Maybe it would be something like EC in Champcar where, as long as the cars aren't too fast and the drivers aren't jerks, you can basically do whatever you want.  No prize money, no overall winning, just fun.

Lemons tried something along those lines about a decade ago with what was called X Class but it didn't work out all that well. I'm under the impression that most people who were involved in it would prefer to forget that it happened.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP

13

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

mharrell wrote:

Lemons tried something along those lines about a decade ago with what was called X Class but it didn't work out all that well. I'm under the impression that most people who were involved in it would prefer to forget that it happened.

Ha, fair enough.  I'll shut up and take my penalty laps.  I feel like I've really earned them now.  wink

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

The quick way to solve it is have the Lemons staff BUY one car back per race for $500, just like the rules say they can.  It will stop the cheaty-creep pretty quick.  If you are willing to walk away from your car for $500 show up with what ever you want....

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

bspeed wrote:

The quick way to solve it is have the Lemons staff BUY one car back per race for $500, just like the rules say they can.  It will stop the cheaty-creep pretty quick.  If you are willing to walk away from your car for $500 show up with what ever you want....

If one out of every 10 races someone bought my $0 miata with $3000 of safety equipment, $1000 of exempt costs (tires/wheels/brakes) that my team and I bonded over building I would quit Lemons racing. Our car is part of our team; it's worthless, but it's part of our family.

The ROI for building a cheaty Lemons car is non-existent, the ROI for an IOE car is achievable. Let the cheaters win, if they want it that badly they can have it. It seems like you're the only one who sees this as an actual problem, everyone else is too busy having fun "losing".

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

We raced a Miata for several years.  I sold it to a team that raced it at HPR this past weekend.  It did well, again.  You can not keep them running in the $500 limit.  I know.  Transmissions and parts are becoming harder and harder to come by.  (cheaply)  Heck half the Miatas had hard tops on them this weekend....those go for $1000 alone.  No one there had a $0 car.

I am not against them racing at all.  In fact the race for the lead last weekend was the best I have ever seen.  There were 10 nearly equally prepared cars.  I thought it was great!  I don't want it to disappear, but overall it should be kept in check.  That's all I am saying.  If you love Miata's and BMW's so much...you have spec series for that.  It's the 24 hours of Lemons....can you make crappy, historically unreliable and insanely cheap cars race for 24 hours.  Don't buy a spec Miata, hit it with a hammer, rattle can it and pass it off as a $500 car.

Mic.....dropped....

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

bspeed wrote:

The quick way to solve it is have the Lemons staff BUY one car back per race for $500, just like the rules say they can.  It will stop the cheaty-creep pretty quick.  If you are willing to walk away from your car for $500 show up with what ever you want....

I'm sure you are aware that in 15 years only one car has been "claimed" and even then the team had threatened to abandon it at the track if HQ didn't claim it.  They immediately gave it away.  The car wasn't cheaty, it had radioactive title and legal problems so no one wanted it.  The other "claim" involved an engine that never got picked up.  I'd count that as zero cars claimed in 15 years.  They've said many, many times that they don't want you car.  Yes, Class X was briefly invented for the MetroGnome, Eyesore Miata and others but that died a quick death.  There currently does exist a process for cheaty cars and it's penalty laps.  Expect to be getting some next time.  Then laugh about it and go have fun.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

Max wrote:

I kinda wish there was an unranked class in Lemons that I could run in and avoid the name calling.  Maybe it would be something like EC in Champcar where, as long as the cars aren't too fast and the drivers aren't jerks, you can basically do whatever you want.  No prize money, no overall winning, just fun.  If we do ever drive Champcar I'll run in EC for sure.  All the fun and none of the worrying about winning over "better deserving" cars.

There is. It is just being assigned penalty laps. A bunch of teams over the years with something ridiculously expensive or cheaty have showed up and the cars have been allowed to run and have fun for the weekend, they are just assigned anywhere from a couple to eleventy-billion penalty laps. It is a good system. People still get to have fun, if that was their intention, but they won't beat teams that ostensibly stayed within the rules, if THAT was their intention. I am sure if someone brought something that was 100% race car and might end up being dangerous as far as speed differential goes, they would probably boot it. But if it is just an over budget, obvious cheat pile, and the team just wants to have fun for a weekend, penalty laps work. Having said that, it feels like over the last few years, penalty laps aren't being handed out as much as I remember. I like it just to remind teams that maybe come from other series where there is no limit, that they really shouldn't try to come over to Lemons to beat up on everybody. If they want to run for fun, then please enjoy. But don't try to pull something over on us rubes. Just play within the spirit of what Lemons is trying to do. I feel like reminders on this, through penalty laps for some, is good for the series.

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Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

That all makes sense to me.  Whether its 5 or a bajillion penalty laps we'll still be coming out and having fun.

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

Did Someone say "X Class"??

Poor Sarah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbj62ZCeSFA

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

The Dropped Packet crew had a great time last weekend, and we were pretty satisfied to keep 501 running and in the top ten.   The cars seem to get faster every year, but clean driving and no breakage is still the key to doing well in the standings.   After several years of no contact, this year was a little different as we had at least three situations where our impeccable bodywork was besmirched with tire marks and bent tin from people running into us and costing us at least 7-8 laps.   Such is racing!   Jeff and the crew at Salty Thunder did an outstanding job with the #90 Fiero and the Corolla wagon lurking outside the top ten was also pretty cool to see hustling around the track.   

I was a little surprised to see that 501 was the only front driver in the top 10, but the Miatas and BMWs have been pushing everything else aside at the top of the standings for a while now.   About the only way for a non-Miata/BMW to win is to run a perfect race with consistent, clean drivers and no mechanical failures.    That is always the challenge, but it is getting harder in an FWD platform.

FWIW, I had a Miata for a couple summers and it felt like an appliance, so I have no desire to drive one in a race.   I think the Integras are a lot more fun to drive, even if they are a little understeery and chew up front tires.   We brought out a second Integra (502) this year and it survived its first race without exploding although it broke three ball joints and the exhaust fell off.   

I'm looking forward to the 24 hour race in September!

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

Great job Max and your crew, you folks were cookin it out there.
I agree with your statements on building and racing the Miatas and BMW's for cheap. I am on one the BMW teams and we have legit build the car for $500. They keep calling it cheaty because of sport springs (they were on the car when we bought it) but is cool. We are in Lemons for exactly as stated before, a more relaxed group of folks wanting to have fun and turn laps. Sure we want to get that 1st place, but it is not the only reason we are there.
It was a pleasure racing with you and look forward to it again.

#1 CEL Racing E36 Meowgical

Re: BFE GP '21 Entry List & Tech Times

CLAIMING A Lemons CAR, THE SHORT VERSION

Why we don't do it:

(1) We don't want to have to add "Logistics for getting an unregistered and untitled car out of the paddock" to our already-heavy workload on a race weekend.
(2) We don't want to mash the Nuclear Option regularly.


When we would do it:

(1) A team is completely out of control, doesn't understand what race they're (not) in, we have NFG if they ever come back, and they have a car that is completely outside the spirit of the rules.
(2) The first three things above, but their car is a pile of shit anyway.
(3) We're friendly enough with the track that they can store the car for a day or two until we can figure out WTF to do with it or a team can come back the next day to pick up/store it for us.


What we would probably do, in reality:

Hold up $500 cash and pre-written bill of sale, then say, "Leave the car here or push it—do not drive it—on the trailer and don't ever look back or come back."


TL;DR - Don't be a douche. That pretty much covers it.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com