Topic: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

Intro:
Ok, so me and my friend are going into our senior year of high school, me and a friend were talking about cars a few nights ago and Lemons came up and we actually want to do this. I'm a firm believer of where there is a will there is a way. My friend is going to a technical school that he's learning about automotive repair(this past year just focused on mainly engine stuff. I'm really interested in cars and the way things work and learning this stuff comes naturally especially with unlimited resources on the internet and YouTube. I'm sort of the brains/research guy, and he's sort of the experience/properly educated on this stuff guy. We're a great pair we really balance each other out, we just did a timing belt on his car and fixing up a bunch of stuff and its going really well.

Reason:
We both understand if your coming to Lemons to win your in the wrong place, I'm mainly interested in the experience and fun involved with it, I love the Lemons culture of the BS and throwing a bunch of crap cars on a race track and rolling with whatever happens. also I think it would be a great way to immerse myself into fixing cars and learning more about them. Another thing is if I ever want to do this I think the best shot is probably right now before all of my friends and acquaintances go off to college and whatnot and pursue careers/families, I plan to go to college for business and I doubt I will have as much interest/time to do Lemons then and after. I think my friend has very similar reasons for doing this aswell.

Plan(as of now):

Race - we want to plan to go to the Lemons Race at New Jersey Motorsports Park(its like 2 hrs. from us) that from what I saw happens mid June(which would work great as we would be graduating a month before that).

Car:
we aren't sure yet but I'm thinking something ~3000lbs max and a 4 cylinder to keep things light and cool, probably hoping to buy a car  beginning of 2022 but if one pops up before then that we think would be really good we may go for it.

Budget:
We did a really rough budget to be around ~$6k, if someone could suggest we adjust different parts of our budget that would be greatly appreciated as I don't know what options are all out there in terms of everything. Here's our current rough budget.
Registration and Memberships: ~$1600(2 drivers)
Car: $500
Rollcage: ~$900 (thinking on trying to weld ourselves my friend has some experience and we could do some networking to try and borrow the equipment. If we think our skills are not sufficient enough to pass tech we will take it to a shop)
Race seat/harness: ~$250
Fire suppression System: ~$400
(2)Suits(gloves and socks/shoes included) (2)Helmets and (1)Neck Brace: ~$1300
Fuel: ~$300(its kind early to guestimate this one)
tires/brakes/parts random: ~$600

Team:
Besides me and my friend, were asking around our friends and people we think would be interested/an asset to the team, hoping to get 3-4 additional people besides us maybe. Not sure what they would be helping out with as a lot of our friends aren't as mechanically inclined as us but if we find one or two that's interested in learning we could get them to help out in regards to that, mainly just adding people to help with the concept/theme and hopefully with costs and pitching in. We also have a friend or two that seem interested in doing this that have vehicles that could tow a car and access to a trailer through a family member.

Funds:
Most of us have jobs and would be pitching in but we also plan to put together a presentation and go around to local business's asking if they would like to sponsor us, once school resumes I plan on asking a bunch of school clubs and teachers/staff about how they go about getting sponsor for their clubs. We will have to work on that a lot and figure out our reasoning/ presentation, but I think that with us being seniors in high school, local business's would be happy to help support some kids, we would make t-shirts and put their company logo/name on the back of it along with try and put them on the car, and we could have different sponsor rewards, and we could give them a picture of us taken at Lemons when its all said and done just some ideas in regards to that.

Thanks if you made it this far into reading everything. Any help/tips/direction would be helpful in any of these categories. If not I'll just break up this post and ask in smaller questions on the forums.

2 (edited by chaase 2021-07-27 02:31 PM)

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

The first piece of advice most will give is buy a pre-built Lemons car or hook up with a local team and run with them for a race or two. It will help you get a feel for what it takes to run a team.  This will also be the cheapest way to go. I think you need three drivers for a team so you may need to up that registration number.

If you insist on building the car. The $900 will be roughly what a cage kit costs. If you don't have a competent welder in the group, you need to add more to that. I don't see kill switch in the list.

I don't see food/hotel expenses in the list. You're random costs are probably low and won't be known until you find the car. Lots of things that are budget exempt that should be done but don't count towards the budget. The registration amount doesn't cover crew and trying to run a race with 2 people is not going to work.

People have posted their costs to build before and I think you are underestimating

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

The estimate of $6k seems ok, but the numbers getting there feel off. Our first race way back in 2011 it cost $5-6k to build the car and get through the first race, but things were cheaper then, and safety requirements were a little less (no fire suppression). We also didn't bother with real racing brakes, which was a mistake. Good brake pads are not cheap but are worth every penny. Good fluid is surprisingly cheap, buy it. ATE Type 200 is like $20/can. Do not use cheap street fluid.

I would strongly suggest not sharing helmets. You can share a neck brace, but fuel stops are much easier with 3 people instead of 2. It's REALLY hard to get lap belts tight enough with only 1 person helping the driver. Also helmets get sweaty and gross.... Same with gear, you can share it, but it's gross.


Best way to learn is to spectate a race and hang out on friday watching tech and talking to teams. You'll learn a ton and can usually find a team willing to teach you about the process of prepping a car.

But I agree easiest way in is buy a car. I've built 2.5 now and it's always more work than you think, and always more expensive than you think. Unless you're really interested in the building, see what you can buy ready. Though I remember myself at 23, and I I know I couldn't be talked out of building the car.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

As everyone, including me, will tell you...try to get a pre-raced car especially one a multi-car team is bored of (I know of Citreon SM for sale race ready for cheap).  If NJMP is close to you, a great resource is 3-Pedal Mafia...they go as "Everyone Racers" on facebook, have ainteresting podcast that is 99#% about Lemons racing and finally, Citreon SM for sale...race ready.  That said, Fritz Dahlin, Matt Ferenchak (sic?) and many others that have been doing this for years are aslo in the area and great resourses...Matt F even sold his race pinto to a new team that have turned into the best new team for raw fun in Lemons in probably 5 years.

If you must build, and I can understand why, you need to use you budet as a best case scenario and build in a 50-100% contingency.  I am not sying it will cost more...but it kinda usually does.

Keeping in mind your timeline of doing before everyone goes off to college, I would stress the pre-built car even more.  An average first build is going to take 12-18 months because you don't know what you don't know.  We are on our 5th and can turn a car around in 3-4 months while legends like Speedycop or Spank can do it in hours.

What you are after is the Lemons experience which is amazing.  If you can prioritize prepp'ing a mostly race race ready car over building everything from scratch, you can also focus on maximizing that experience.

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

Unless you are just hell bent on building a car, I'd suggest you rent a seat first.  If for nothing else, to find out what you don't know about what you don't know.

Some of your figures are a little low IMO, but at least you have a realistic budget in mind.  If you can't build your own cage, that $900 figure will likely be double.   Wheels/tires/brakes/random parts for $600 sounds sound like a bad Jeopardy category.  Actual racing brakes are not cheap, and part store brakes shouldn't even be allowed IMO.

IMO, you need more bodies involved to spread out the cost and the work.   You can find a lot of buddies who might be chomping at the bit to drive, but when it comes to forking over the ca$h or spending endless hours under the car, they disappear fast.   At the race a team of two is not going to work IMO.  Most teams have 3-4 (or more) drivers.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

Just to pound the point home:

BUY  a  PREVIOUSLY RUN Lemon, you WILL save immense amounts of time & $$ fixing it up over building your own.

Used nascar suits are cheaper then you think, raceimage.com

Rent a seat if possible

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

A new concept that the Lemons brass is in the throws of enacting is a "coach" type scenario.
There are a bunch of experienced team leaders who are intent on helping out new teams, myself being one of them.
As a part time judge and builder of many "race" cars. I have raced and wrenched for 12 + years in this series.
This Forum has a lot of good info also, But my advice is to not get overwhelmed and make your Lemons experience to whatever your idea of it is.
Show up, ask questions, volunteer to help another team, buy a finished car, build a new car, Race to win, race for fun, just hang out with like minded lunatics, its all up to you.
We all can and will lend a hand or brain cell to help you get involved.

Where are you located?
Manny 845 742 7235

8 (edited by rozap_ 2021-07-28 09:41 AM)

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

These numbers feel pretty low.

We just completed our first race last weekend. We did a true hooptie build, trying to cut as many (non-safety related) corners as possible. We resurfaced the head on my kitchen counter to avoid paying a machine shop. We did the cage ourselves. A friend donated about 90% of the DOM tubing required, which was a huge cost we saved. We ended up at just under $7k for the whole build and the first race entry fee. That doesn't include driver gear, which we all bought separately. We ended up immediately in class C and didn't need a BS inspection since the car is so shit.

You *might* be able to save some money by running a car which has good junkyard options. Our car (a fiat x1/9) has no junkyard support.

Agree you don't want to share gear outside the neck brace. It gets super gross. It'd be like sharing underwear or socks. I guess some people pay good money for that kind of thing but most of us aren't into that.

Buying an existing car is definitely cheaper, but if part of the experience that you want is building it yourself, then that's not the point. I get that. You also won't know the car inside and out so when something goes wrong during the race you'll flail around. It's your call on which route you want to go.

People (Lemons folks, friends, family, people on car forums) really love helping, so take them up on offers to do so. I'd take Manny up on his offer above re: Lemons coach.

BSOD Racing, 1987 Fiat X1/9

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

Of course, all of this is IMHO. 

StarryWarry wrote:

Race - we want to plan to go to the Lemons Race at New Jersey Motorsports Park(its like 2 hrs. from us) that from what I saw happens mid June(which would work great as we would be graduating a month before that).

Great that you're thinking about this so far in advance.  Best to get started as soon as possible!

StarryWarry wrote:

Car:
we aren't sure yet but I'm thinking something ~3000lbs max and a 4 cylinder to keep things light and cool, probably hoping to buy a car  beginning of 2022 but if one pops up before then that we think would be really good we may go for it.

I wouldn't wait to buy.  Building from scratch can be time consuming.  Sounds like a great plan on the general car-type.  Lighter = easier on tires/brakes and 4 cylinders = generally easier on gas.  Getting a car with junkyard support would probably be a good idea.  If you're really lucky you might acquire a cheap car from a relative.  Seems lame but knowing a car's history is nice and friend/family discounts are sweet. 

StarryWarry wrote:

Budget:
We did a really rough budget to be around ~$6k, if someone could suggest we adjust different parts of our budget that would be greatly appreciated as I don't know what options are all out there in terms of everything. Here's our current rough budget.
Registration and Memberships: ~$1600(2 drivers)
Car: $500
Rollcage: ~$900 (thinking on trying to weld ourselves my friend has some experience and we could do some networking to try and borrow the equipment. If we think our skills are not sufficient enough to pass tech we will take it to a shop)
Race seat/harness: ~$250
Fire suppression System: ~$400
(2)Suits(gloves and socks/shoes included) (2)Helmets and (1)Neck Brace: ~$1300
Fuel: ~$300(its kind early to guestimate this one)
tires/brakes/parts random: ~$600

A firm "maybe" on much of that.  I think you should be prepared to spend more on the car, roll cage, and tires/brakes/parts.  A true $500 may need a few dollars thrown at it to be reliable enough to race (think wheel bearings, blown struts, end links, basically anything on the suspension that is made of rubber).  Some other things you'll need (one way or another): gas cans, fire extinguisher(s), a fuel catch pan, and a killswitch.  Not terribly expensive but things to add to your list. 

StarryWarry wrote:

Team:
Besides me and my friend, were asking around our friends and people we think would be interested/an asset to the team, hoping to get 3-4 additional people besides us maybe. Not sure what they would be helping out with as a lot of our friends aren't as mechanically inclined as us but if we find one or two that's interested in learning we could get them to help out in regards to that, mainly just adding people to help with the concept/theme and hopefully with costs and pitching in. We also have a friend or two that seem interested in doing this that have vehicles that could tow a car and access to a trailer through a family member.

Good plan here.  Honestly whatever team dynamic works for you is going to be best. 

StarryWarry wrote:

Funds:
Most of us have jobs and would be pitching in but we also plan to put together a presentation and go around to local business's asking if they would like to sponsor us, once school resumes I plan on asking a bunch of school clubs and teachers/staff about how they go about getting sponsor for their clubs. We will have to work on that a lot and figure out our reasoning/ presentation, but I think that with us being seniors in high school, local business's would be happy to help support some kids, we would make t-shirts and put their company logo/name on the back of it along with try and put them on the car, and we could have different sponsor rewards, and we could give them a picture of us taken at Lemons when its all said and done just some ideas in regards to that.

Some great ideas here.  I would give all of that a try for sure.

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

Knowing where you live would help point you to some local people. As Manny, aka Mkotzias, aka my partner in crime said, there are many teams that will gladly help. If you are in northern NJ or Southern NY, we can help. There are experienced teams all over that can lend a hand, give advice, etc.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

For greatest chance of success: spectate and make friends, then rent a seat, then build/buy a car. If your primary interest is racing, buy a car. If your primary interest is building, then build a car. If your interest is 50:50, then buy a car (there will plenty of repairs to keep you occupied). Don’t get too hung up on budget. It’s incremental expenses over a multi year endeavor.  Pay as you go.
Have fun.

Tri-Lamb Motorsports ‘87 528e

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

Here is a good thread on what it cost other teams to build a car:

https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=36498

It was started by Spank, who can probably build a car for less than anyone else, but he has been doing it for over 10 years.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

I'd like to give the OP credit for using actual words with paragraphs vs. "text speak". 

My old ass cringes for the poster when I see "UR", or "bro" used in a post.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

What is OP?

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

Mkotzias wrote:

What is OP?

Original Poster

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

The Porssat is still for sale (I think), just sayin': https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=40020

There's also this VR6 Jetta that I don't remember at all: https://www.racingjunk.com/24-Hours-of- … ffset=10#7

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

I think I have an Original Poster of Farrah Fawcett.

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

therood wrote:

[snip]

There's also this VR6 Jetta that I don't remember at all: https://www.racingjunk.com/24-Hours-of- … ffset=10#7

If you buy the Jetta ^, you'd be roughly 2/3 of the way there.

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

That Jetta is somewhere along my daily commute. Been out of the game for the past five years (ran out of spare parts and money...that's one way to mostly cure a Merkur hoarding problem), but happy to look it over...maybe it would motivate me to yank the XR4 out of the weeds and make questionable decisions with credit cards again.

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

Hello, new team so everything is a first. Helmet still has that new car smell.
We're innovating, wondering how to connect the catheter into the coolshirt for maximum drive length combined with optimal lightweight ice-free cooling?
Also, any other tricks we should know going into the true 24 hour High Plains Drifter race? Looking forward to it.
Cheers,
Skid-Do racing car #2 (no doubt this is already a famous team's number at every other race - sorry)

Re: Really interested in Lemons, a bit overwhelmed on where to start.

1. buy a car you are familiar with. 2. make it safe, that means if you have no cage experience have it done. It would suck to do a bunch of work spend a bunch of money only to fail tech. 3. build the car to be as relievable as possible, worry about speed later. 4. After you do all of that worry about a theme.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"