Topic: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

Hey all, I am trying to figure out WTF was happening last weekend at Road Atlanta that made the PUY so damn bad.

Post up your videos of anything noteworthy OR just whole stints so I can get a sense of how things unfolded. We're not usually doing post-mortems for races, but we're trying to figure out why this one was so hard for everyone and how we can improve on it.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

2 (edited by hkerekes 2021-12-16 09:32 PM)

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

i have in car footage from the 281 crown vic from all of saturday and 3/4 of sunday.   
You can see the spin before the green flag that i did at 20 mph.  Hopefully you can tell i was not dicking around and it was infact the transmission shifting to second that spun me.  First stint on saturday

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCInW0 … ikQ/videos

All broken down by day and stint.   There were some questionable flagging events that almost caused a pileup in turn 10.  No Yellow down the straight, and coming down the hill to a parking lot with a yellow flag in 10.   Saturday third stint just before the 10 minute mark.  This was really dangerous and In my opinion 100% on the flaggers not doing a good job.   The driver came pretty close to having a bad accident.

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

We haven't had a chance to go through our video and get it uploaded anywhere (or, more pertinently, to even verify that our GoPros were working and we have video), but, I did want to echo the above statement about some potentially sub-par flagging. 

I started the race for my team, and did about the first hour, hour and a half.  So, lots of time circling the track under yellow.  After a few laps under yellow, the flagger on the back straightaway (between the bridge and the station at T10) put his flag away.  Not set it up to blow on its own, but completely put it away.  I though, that's odd, I don't think that's how this works, but, what am I going to do?  Well, somehow, at least twice, I ended up on the back straight when the course went green.  The only way I knew that the course had gone green was that suddenly there were cars racing up behind me.  All of us over on the back straight were just moseying along (because of the other big problem - people creeping along under yellow), and so now, when we finally realize it's green, you've got a huge mess of cars all taking off at the same time.  Not a good recipe, especially on a slippery course.  Now, I'm not trying to say that that issue caused the whole weekend to be crap, but, it definitely was not a good way to start.  I also twice thought I had been black flagged, because on two consecutive laps, the guy was holding the flag, kind of unfurled.  I couldn't imagine what in the world I could possibly have done under yellow, and they weren't what anyone would call pointed at me per-se, so I stayed out (to find there were no flags on succeeding laps), but it was still unnerving to drive by an open black flag. 

I hate to criticize or speak ill of a corner worker (to the point that I was too afraid to say anything during the race), but, that was really blatantly sub-par, to me.  Do I really want to hold a flag out there for a dozen minutes at a time?  Heck no.  But, other stations seemed to have holders for the flags, not sure why this one wouldn't have. 

I had an incident or two where my talent ran out, and one or two more where I thought 'stop being such a fucking asshole', but, I think the effects were minimal.  Just happy we improved a lot on our 'performance' at Sebring...

Semi-Sentient Centenarians
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     it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it a racecar or what?" - Blues Brothers, Probably

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

Not sure on video but will say flagging was poor. One instance I had was Sunday morning. Battling it out 3 wide coming into 9 at the top of the hill. Going 110 or so in our Miata. Flagger at 9 looked to be putting away a black flag slowly with his number board. I come threw no issues at 9. When I crest the hill at 10...4 lanes of traffic stopped at the bottom of the hill. I was stationary at the 150 brake marker. That is scary. I herd lock ups behind me. I would say that there were 25-30 cars in 10a/10b dealing with a spun car. But to have that many in 10a before the worker station 9 should have been waving yellow. Saw many lazy flags. I mean I have worked. But shoot you got to get the driver's attention and communicate between corners. When I have worked corners, I have zero issue just coming on the radio and going 9 go waiving.

I only drove 30 mins before the car blew up on Sunday. I'll say that the driving out there was TERRIBLE. Many people not checking their mirrors. I was able to deal with it but I would have hated to be a novice out there. Personal opinion as well. There were to many cars on track. 106 is great for money but 85 would really cut down the traffic and open it up some. Maybe something to think about. Sorry about the side rant. Was going to email about it and still can. That was race 10 with Lemons and we love you guys. But that weekend was the worst one ever. Enough to maybe not come back to Road Atlanta again.

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

Out of curiosity, were there lots of new teams at this race? The amount of poor driving tends to be proportional to the number of new sets of drivers. That tends to sort itself out as people get experience.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

96Formula6spd wrote:

Not sure on video but will say flagging was poor. One instance I had was Sunday morning. Battling it out 3 wide coming into 9 at the top of the hill. Going 110 or so in our Miata. Flagger at 9 looked to be putting away a black flag slowly with his number board. I come threw no issues at 9. When I crest the hill at 10...4 lanes of traffic stopped at the bottom of the hill. I was stationary at the 150 brake marker. That is scary. I herd lock ups behind me. I would say that there were 25-30 cars in 10a/10b dealing with a spun car. But to have that many in 10a before the worker station 9 should have been waving yellow. Saw many lazy flags. I mean I have worked. But shoot you got to get the driver's attention and communicate between corners. When I have worked corners, I have zero issue just coming on the radio and going 9 go waiving.

Was it this one? Because I can tell the stopped car happened pretty suddenly, but I'm trying to figure out why 10A isn't calling 9 to wave yellow and why that wasn't being done all weekend if it wasn't. I see your car with them out of 7 (16:55 if it doesn't launch there): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8u3lgmC_Rw&t=1021s

chaase wrote:

Out of curiosity, were there lots of new teams at this race? The amount of poor driving tends to be proportional to the number of new sets of drivers. That tends to sort itself out as people get experience.

There were a lot of first-time Lemons teams, some of whom appeared to have racing experience elsewhere that...isn't Lemons. I'm piecing together a lot of things that we hadn't noticed at RA that we could do differently to accommodate a novice level, though.

Also anyone familiar with RA: Does the intermediate station between 9 and 10A ever get used? Seems like that's a crucial spot (would be better up the hill about 100 yards, but whatever) for knowing what's ahead.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

I’ve done a fair amount of track days at RA and the flag station right before the 10a braking markers has never been used when I was there

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

JCH wrote:

I’ve done a fair amount of track days at RA and the flag station right before the 10a braking markers has never been used when I was there

That's what I would have guessed. It's got a port-o-john next to it, so it must get used sometime? IMSA?

Edit: Nope, not used at Petit Le Mans this year. There's a non-zero chance it's not even wired for comms.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

9 (edited by 96Formula6spd 2021-12-17 10:27 AM)

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

therood wrote:

Was it this one? Because I can tell the stopped car happened pretty suddenly, but I'm trying to figure out why 10A isn't calling 9 to wave yellow and why that wasn't being done all weekend if it wasn't. I see your car with them out of 7 (16:55 if it doesn't launch there): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8u3lgmC_Rw&t=1021s

It was. This was the end of it. I was further up I think. Just now coming around a corner to oh fuck without much warning was fun. Can hear one car lock up in the video which is maybe what I herd. I know I was around the thunderbird but not the one with the nascar motor. Figure this is 30 seconds after we went threw.

Edit. I was catching this pack. So I was behind these cars. Still no flag at 9.

10 (edited by VKZ24 2021-12-17 02:06 PM)

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

Frame of reference from me (solely my opinion obviously) is the flaggers used at NCM in 2017 were the best I've ever seen (at Lemons tracks).  IIRC, there were even two flaggers at some stations.  One looking forward, and one backwards.  I'm sure that's not very affordable, but damn it was nice.

I'd also say (at some tracks) the location of the flag station has a LOT to do with it.  At Barber, there are several in TOTALLY the wrong location...i.e. where a driver would not be looking.  A couple are even behind a fence IIRC that are really hard to see.  I realize that's not under Lemons control, but you wanted "why" answers right?

IMO, one potential solution would be to flag one station ahead of the incident.  There were a couple of spins out of T7 at RA, and when you are already rounding T6 at speed, it's hard to stop on a dime and not pass another car when you finally see the flag at T7, which is actually blind as you enter T6. 

Also, since the corner workers all have radios, why does it seem impossible for the whole course to "go green" at the SAME time after a FCY has been lifted?

Sorry if I sound whiny.  I didn't get to drive this time at RA due to a medical issue, but I was there.   I will say my team and I 100% support the "We will put your @ss on the trailer" penalty if you buzz the safety/tow vehicles/workers.  I think that should be added to the rules permanently.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

11 (edited by hkerekes 2021-12-17 04:13 PM)

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

therood wrote:
96Formula6spd wrote:

Not sure on video but will say flagging was poor. One instance I had was Sunday morning. Battling it out 3 wide coming into 9 at the top of the hill. Going 110 or so in our Miata. Flagger at 9 looked to be putting away a black flag slowly with his number board. I come threw no issues at 9. When I crest the hill at 10...4 lanes of traffic stopped at the bottom of the hill. I was stationary at the 150 brake marker. That is scary. I herd lock ups behind me. I would say that there were 25-30 cars in 10a/10b dealing with a spun car. But to have that many in 10a before the worker station 9 should have been waving yellow. Saw many lazy flags. I mean I have worked. But shoot you got to get the driver's attention and communicate between corners. When I have worked corners, I have zero issue just coming on the radio and going 9 go waiving.

Was it this one? Because I can tell the stopped car happened pretty suddenly, but I'm trying to figure out why 10A isn't calling 9 to wave yellow and why that wasn't being done all weekend if it wasn't. I see your car with them out of 7 (16:55 if it doesn't launch there): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8u3lgmC_Rw&t=1021s

chaase wrote:

Out of curiosity, were there lots of new teams at this race? The amount of poor driving tends to be proportional to the number of new sets of drivers. That tends to sort itself out as people get experience.

There were a lot of first-time Lemons teams, some of whom appeared to have racing experience elsewhere that...isn't Lemons. I'm piecing together a lot of things that we hadn't noticed at RA that we could do differently to accommodate a novice level, though.

Also anyone familiar with RA: Does the intermediate station between 9 and 10A ever get used? Seems like that's a crucial spot (would be better up the hill about 100 yards, but whatever) for knowing what's ahead.



yes that is the incident.   We were the car with the tire squeel.   You can see the flagger had no flag up coming down the straight, and at the bottom of the hill there is a pileup.
https://youtu.be/EBPBrSH4UiA?t=571

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

hkerekes wrote:

yes that is the incident.   We were the car with the tire squeel.   You can see the flagger had no flag up coming down the straight, and at the bottom of the hill there is a pileup.
https://youtu.be/EBPBrSH4UiA?t=571

Yikes..you had a good head of steam going down that straight.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

chaase wrote:
hkerekes wrote:

yes that is the incident.   We were the car with the tire squeel.   You can see the flagger had no flag up coming down the straight, and at the bottom of the hill there is a pileup.
https://youtu.be/EBPBrSH4UiA?t=571

Yikes..you had a good head of steam going down that straight.

When our shit was running right in the dry ........ we were seeing 118 before braking.   
Unfortunately sunday we were losing power and running like crap.

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

Here is my view of the first few minutes of the race before my GoPro stopped for some reason. The biggest thing I noticed is turn
10a flagger was apparently hold a standing yellow basically the whole video but you cant see it till your at the 100ft marker and already looking up the hill by then.

https://youtu.be/EkmYd0oB2f8

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4mr … 8DX57cxUw1

Did not see this thread previously.  This is all of the Hong Norrth Video.

Mark G. Davis - Hong Norrth Mazda MX3
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Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

Thanks guys, plenty to review but lots of feedback pointing at the same things among yourselves and with things we have noticed both during the final stages of the race and during some video review stuff. It's still not completely sure to us what changed between 2019 and now; the operation was theoretically the same as two years ago so it's a little baffling.

Anyway, long story short: We're already working on making our next race there better because that wasn't the kind of event we want to hold.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

chaase wrote:

Out of curiosity, were there lots of new teams at this race? The amount of poor driving tends to be proportional to the number of new sets of drivers. That tends to sort itself out as people get experience.

Indeed, WE (#26) plain white 91 sh!tbox ford escort were brand new. Hands down one of the top10 SLOWEST cars in the hundred field.
It was my first time driving the car and first time meeting 2 of the drivers.  Two drivers had only drove lil tally once with said escort. One of the drivers had NEVER driven a car on track, and his first stint was trying to figure out how to buckle in for his first stint..right as the Rain started pouring on Sat.

That being said, we had no incidents all weekend, ended up 5th in our C class and like 32nd overall. /shrug

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

NTGatVE wrote:
chaase wrote:

Out of curiosity, were there lots of new teams at this race? The amount of poor driving tends to be proportional to the number of new sets of drivers. That tends to sort itself out as people get experience.

Indeed, WE (#26) plain white 91 sh!tbox ford escort were brand new. Hands down one of the top10 SLOWEST cars in the hundred field.
It was my first time driving the car and first time meeting 2 of the drivers.  Two drivers had only drove lil tally once with said escort. One of the drivers had NEVER driven a car on track, and his first stint was trying to figure out how to buckle in for his first stint..right as the Rain started pouring on Sat.

That being said, we had no incidents all weekend, ended up 5th in our C class and like 32nd overall. /shrug


This is nothing against you or your teams driving.   I personally didnt notice your white escort causing any issues.

In general you can be a new team with a slow car and be oblivious to the issues that being an inexperienced driver can cause.    The problems come when other faster cars are going to pass and slower cars doing stupid things will cause the faster car to have an off/incident with someone else.   There is so much less margin for error with a considerably faster car. 

Many inexperienced teams have no idea they are not predictable, and are causing issues on the track.   It often takes a bit to learn how it all works, and not unknowingly cause other teams issues.

Re: Road Atlanta '21 - Video Request

Aside from flaggers not warning us about pile ups on the other side of a blind crest, they would hold flags out on the far side of the turns sometimes.  You're racing to turn 8, and see a yellow after making your pass.  Im sure it has something to do with the flagger watching what's happening where the incident is, but that's where 2 flaggers would be needed.

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