1 (edited by zac.s.caldwell 2022-04-03 02:41 PM)

Topic: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

First: here’s the picture thread. The first are how the van sat before I ripped into it, the last half is the end of day 1. I’ll update the thread and caption as the build continues.

https://imgur.com/a/tdJ9xlh


The quick narrative:

This is a 2005 dodge caravan SXT that we have owned since … time immemorial. I think we bought it almost new. It currently has 230,000 miles on it and has been a workhorse the whole time. My brother has driven it across multiple states- and not too long ago. I trust the thing to keep moving forever.

It has a 3.8 L v6 that the caravan shared with a few other cars, notably the Cherokee of that era.

I’ve been wanting to field a team for years, since I was lucky enough to tag along to a few races with zero energy racing in a primer gray del sol with a Lexus engine. Those guys knew what they were doing. I do not.

My mother passed a few months ago and my father and I had really spent all of our time caring for her the last few years. When she passed, there was a lot of rearranging to do in our lives, one of which was liquidating the cars we had somehow accumulated and never had time to liquidate. We sold her van, one old truck, and were going to scrap this van, until I talked dad into seeing it as a canvas for his hare-brained ideas and need to tinker.

Dad’s 72 and is basically the stereotype of an old man who’s never had his ADD diagnosed or treated. He hoards tools, projects, and other detritus. I have given up trying to change and have decided we’ll use it to get this car on the track and give him an opportunity to finally see what Lemons is about. I feel like these people are his people, he just never found them.

So I’m going at it and getting his help when I can. Did I mention I broke my collarbone last month and only have one good arm? This’ll be fun.

Anyway- the goals for the van is pretty simple:
1. Weight reduction. I’m stripping it to metal on the interior  there’s lots of scary points of failure on this build, and all can be mitigated with weight reduction. Cooling, brakes, drivetrain abuse, handling, tires, all of it. So weight reduction. Seats, AC, dash… it’ll be a box on wheels. I’m excited to see how much I can actually eliminate.

2. Safety.  I’m having a roll cage fabbed and installed. This will be the only thing I don’t do in-house, as I’ve been told is wise. I’m glad, after the first day of stripping, that I’m seeing plenty of good contact points for plates.

3. Breathing: going to pull the air box and install a high flow air filter and delete what obstructions I can in the diwn stream. Probably a catalytic converter delete. Maybe some badly fabbed side pipes?

Looking forward to all ideas and thoughts. I’ve done a good amount of wrenching on my motorcycles but this is a different beast and I’ll make a ton of mistakes for you to enjoy.

If you’re gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

#2 is the most important thing. Some will recommend keep the the HVAC intact so you can use the the defroster. As a rookie team, #3 is least important. My recommendation is to wait until after the first race..

Filling out your profile so people know where you are. The Lemons family is very helpful so knowing who is around you is helpful. I've helped a couple of local teams.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

chaase wrote:

#2 is the most important thing. Some will recommend keep the the HVAC intact so you can use the the defroster. As a rookie team, #3 is least important. My recommendation is to wait until after the first race..

Filling out your profile so people know where you are. The Lemons family is very helpful so knowing who is around you is helpful. I've helped a couple of local teams.

I should mention that the AC is already kaput. If I can figure out defrosting, I’ll give it good thought before I do anything hard or impossible to undo.

Thanks for the point about the profile- I’ll get on that now.

If you’re gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

zac.s.caldwell wrote:
chaase wrote:

#2 is the most important thing. Some will recommend keep the the HVAC intact so you can use the the defroster. As a rookie team, #3 is least important. My recommendation is to wait until after the first race..

Filling out your profile so people know where you are. The Lemons family is very helpful so knowing who is around you is helpful. I've helped a couple of local teams.

I should mention that the AC is already kaput. If I can figure out defrosting, I’ll give it good thought before I do anything hard or impossible to undo.

Thanks for the point about the profile- I’ll get on that now.

You can by a universal defroster kit for the windshield. That’s what we’ve installed in all of our cars.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

And: mount the seat before building the cage. ;-)

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

As a terrible racecar owner/driver, happy to see more terrible racecars coming into the series! 

1 & 2 are great points but, as mentioned, 3 should be very far down the list, and seen as very much 'if we have tons of extra time and money' before race 1. 

It's pretty likely that you will struggle with keeping everything cool on track.  You will want to find the largest cooler you can for your transmission fluid (ATF & oil coolers are pretty much interchangeable).  Derale makes some pretty huge ones, I've heard Tru Cool does as well.  After safety, and good brakes, keeping the damned thing happy turning around a track would be top of the list for me.  I'm not too up-to-spec on Caravans, but, check around on the different models to see what upgraded parts you might find - if tow package/AWD vans had a larger radiator, bigger brakes, stiffer springs, stuff like that that's really easy to swap out.  Might also branch out and see if brake parts from the 300M or the 300C/SRT8 can be made to fit & are an upgrade, but that may not be necessary (or even smart) to do before race 1.  For what you have, at the very least, get a set of blank rotors (no drill/slot/etc), some high temp brake fluid, and consider investing in some race compound pads.  They'll likely need to be custom made for this application, but, it's worth it - you're still going to have a heavy vehicle even after all the weight reduction, and it'll be hard on brakes.   

As for the defrost, it's a godsend if you ever have to race in inclement weather.  Being a van, you've got a lot of windshield to take care of there, and by far the easiest way is to just leave the damned defrost in.  Go ahead, rip out all the A/C stuff, remove the compressor (check if you need a compressor delete pulley, most vehicles do), remove the dash and its vents.  But just leave the controls and the vents that point onto the windshield.  My teammates were also gung-ho about saving weight when we got our car, but I'd been strongly advised to leave in the defrost in, so I put my foot down on that one.  And after needing it several times, none of us would ever even think about taking the defrost out of a racecar.  YMMV, but, I would absolutely leave in the defrost. 

And, not that this matters, but, I don't think any Cherokees (Grand or not) every got the 3.8.  Other than the vans, I think the only recipient of that engine was the early JK generation Wrangler.  Most trucks, Jeeps, etc got the 3.7, which was, even by Chrysler standards, quite a horrific pile of an engine.  Hopefully the 3.8 is better.

Semi-Sentient Centenarians
1996 Buick Century - we upgraded our crappy GM sedan with parts from a crappy GM minivan.
"It's got a van motor, a 220 cubic inch plant, it's got van tires, van suspension, van shocks. It's a model with the catalytic converters ripped out so
     it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it a racecar or what?" - Blues Brothers, Probably

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

You’re absolutely right- it was the JK series wranglers.

Which makes me think there’s a manual transmission that could be an option at some point.  I’ll have to find out.

Thankfully, it has the tow package on it already but brakes are on the list.

I still think slapping a high flow air filter will be a 5 minute job worth the time. Maybe not the cat delete.

If you’re gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

First off, I think it's great you spent time shadowing other teams before starting your own... sometimes it feels like were beating a dead horse by telling people to shadow teams but nobody seems to do this before starting their own.

1) perfect.. the lighter it is, the less hard it has to work. Be careful with removing the back hatch if exhaust exits the rear as it'll recirculate into the cabin.

2) perfect... safety is #1... it's one thing to fail tech and not be able to repair it, it's another thing to run 10 laps and the car breaks beyond repair. Getting stuck at tech is my biggest fear and a bad cage is usually a do-over.

3) Remove the cat as it's a fire hazard during track use. Leave the intake stock... you aren't gaining anything but less reliability with anything but a stock intake. Cone filters suck more crap in and are more likely to get clogged or torn open. The 1.5 HP gain isn't going to make you any more competitive.

Spend your time and money on reliability... cooling/ducting (heat is the enemy of all "race" cars), good brake pads (carbotech and g loc will cut any pad shape free of charge... I'm guessing you won't find ST43s or anything for a caravan lol), good fluids, RS4 tires, and driver comfort will go a long way. Also, take the car to a normal track day before going to a race. This will both flush out any issues with the car, and get your drivers more comfortable with being on track before jumping into w2w.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

^Carbotech made pads for me.  Several in fact using their recommendations.  At full price.  Followed their instructions to a T.  All of which failed miserably ruining race weekends and they blamed me for all the problems.  Never again. 

OTOH, Porterfield custom made ST43s for me using backing plates I provided (saved time).  Worked like a charm.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

ive run carbotech pads for years and havent had any issues.  Probably used over 10 sets of different compounds.  xp8/10/12/20   YMMV...

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

cheseroo wrote:

^Carbotech made pads for me.  Several in fact using their recommendations.  At full price.  Followed their instructions to a T.  All of which failed miserably ruining race weekends and they blamed me for all the problems.  Never again. 

OTOH, Porterfield custom made ST43s for me using backing plates I provided (saved time).  Worked like a charm.

Bummer you've had issues with them; not discounting your experience, but you're the first I've heard of to have a negative experience. In the miata time attack/track community they're the go-to compound. They don't last as long as RS-E's or ST43's but are typically more driveable. What issues did you have them?

Never thought about saving backing plates for "weirder" cars to have ST43 friction material molded to it... if we ever get something weird I'll be sure to save backing plates.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

Bummer you've had issues with them; not discounting your experience, but you're the first I've heard of to have a negative experience. In the miata time attack/track community they're the go-to compound. They don't last as long as RS-E's or ST43's but are typically more driveable. What issues did you have them?

The chumpcar forum has an entire thread of people lamenting their decision to use Carbotech due to pad transfer so bad you can't keep the steering wheel in your hands or wheels on the ground.  Back when I was having issues I later found other racing threads where people complained of the same symptoms I was having.  I get it, it's a racing product and a pretty specialized one at that.  Problems happen.  But what really pissed me off was their customer service attitude of basically eff you, you're using the product wrong, incorrect prep, etc, etc to the point where even though you followed their recommendations and procedures they made you feel like an idiot for not doing it right.  Then when you do your research finding out a ton of other people out there had the same exact customer service response to the exact same experiences.  You're an idiot, you are doing it wrong, blah, blah, blah.  That's the part that really cheeses me off about them, not that I spent thousands buying the shit product they recommended, the track rental to prepare them as directed or the lost race time.  It's being treated like a piece of shit when it turns out they knew there was a problem.  They well may have fixed all their problems and now have a product that stops better than anything else, doesn't wear the rotors and last three years.  I don't care.  Some people have great experience with the product within their specific application/vehicle.  That fine.  Customer Service isn't judged by how it goes when things go right, it's judged by how it goes when things go wrong and these guys fail in the most demeaning way.   I refuse to give business to people like that and will never shy away from sharing my experience with them.  And clearly I'm not the only one who had the same exact experience.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

duthehustle93 wrote:

Never thought about saving backing plates for "weirder" cars to have ST43 friction material molded to it... if we ever get something weird I'll be sure to save backing plates.

I have a Volvo that does not have good pad options.  I sent a picture of a pad to Porterfield and they custom made ST43s for me.  No used backing plates required for mine.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

cheseroo wrote:

Bummer you've had issues with them; not discounting your experience, but you're the first I've heard of to have a negative experience. In the miata time attack/track community they're the go-to compound. They don't last as long as RS-E's or ST43's but are typically more driveable. What issues did you have them?

The chumpcar forum has an entire thread of people lamenting their decision to use Carbotech due to pad transfer so bad you can't keep the steering wheel in your hands or wheels on the ground.

Lemons as well it was just about 4 years ago and most teams gave up on them.  Some still use Carbotech an have good luck so it is not universal...but thus far I have found three teams with poor opinion of the ST43's and two move up a heat range to ST45's (I think) an were fine.

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

duthehustle93 wrote:

...if we ever get something weird I'll be sure to save backing plates.

Trust me, once you reach the point of "after weeks of searching I finally found a guy in Denmark who just gave me the name of a guy in Portugal who might have the suspension part I need" then you'll develop a rather cautious attitude towards the actual disposability of nearly every component, not just backing plates.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

Interesting, maybe Carbotechs hold up better to TA but are a poor choice for endurance racing? My experience/other peoples experience I know with them has been within TA and all positive. Good to know! FWIW, there's also G loc, which to the best of my knowledge is run by a handful of people who left Carbotech to start their own company. They're products are nearly identical, and perhaps their customer service is better. I agree though, I stop buying from companies that won't back their product after you have an issue. It tells me they have zero interest in improving their product or making customers happy. We've run anything from $30 specials to ST43s/R4-E's and they've all worked for us with varying life... but we also have a stock power miata and brakes are rarely used ... so I'm a pretty horrible reference. I'm sure for the OP's dodge caravan he'd want something that can take a beating.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

17 (edited by Team Infinniti 2022-04-07 05:49 AM)

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

cheseroo wrote:

Bummer you've had issues with them; not discounting your experience, but you're the first I've heard of to have a negative experience. In the miata time attack/track community they're the go-to compound. They don't last as long as RS-E's or ST43's but are typically more driveable. What issues did you have them?

The chumpcar forum has an entire thread of people lamenting their decision to use Carbotech due to pad transfer so bad you can't keep the steering wheel in your hands or wheels on the ground.  Back when I was having issues I later found other racing threads where people complained of the same symptoms I was having.  I get it, it's a racing product and a pretty specialized one at that.  Problems happen.  But what really pissed me off was their customer service attitude of basically eff you, you're using the product wrong, incorrect prep, etc, etc to the point where even though you followed their recommendations and procedures they made you feel like an idiot for not doing it right.  Then when you do your research finding out a ton of other people out there had the same exact customer service response to the exact same experiences.  You're an idiot, you are doing it wrong, blah, blah, blah.  That's the part that really cheeses me off about them, not that I spent thousands buying the shit product they recommended, the track rental to prepare them as directed or the lost race time.  It's being treated like a piece of shit when it turns out they knew there was a problem.  They well may have fixed all their problems and now have a product that stops better than anything else, doesn't wear the rotors and last three years.  I don't care.  Some people have great experience with the product within their specific application/vehicle.  That fine.  Customer Service isn't judged by how it goes when things go right, it's judged by how it goes when things go wrong and these guys fail in the most demeaning way.   I refuse to give business to people like that and will never shy away from sharing my experience with them.  And clearly I'm not the only one who had the same exact experience.

Im the lamenting one from the other forum, everything you say is true, friendly till there is criticism...So we went elsewhere but found it difficult to get better results, finally,unfortunately back to the devil you know because at least they worked... this time ignored their recommendations and ordered "something that can not work for your application" "paperweights" That was almost 8 yrs ago we figured out how to get 1 compound to work correctly and have never strayed since.

Edit: Tried G-loc and failed

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

18 (edited by Dudefladge 2022-04-07 06:10 AM)

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

Hey Zac,

I'm sorry I'm not in E-town anymore. Otherwise I'd help you with this!

Safety and reliability up front for sure. NCM has track days and HPDEs that would be good to check out.

Once you get into performance and handling upgrades (down the road, after you get things sorted and on track) you could check in with the SDAC (Shelby Dodge Auto Club) folks. They are all about FWD turbo stuff and often use caravan parts as upgrades for their smaller cars.

There are several aftermarket suppliers (last I checked) for the FWD turbo cars and a lot of that technology translates to your caravan.

I AM NOT RECOMMENDING YOU ADD A TURBO TO YOUR CARAVAN!!! LOL

Get a good, comfortable seat. Good mirrors are important, especially in a van. You'll be getting passed a lot.

Do you have a cage builder picked out yet? Quinn Shireman (Quinn's Chassis) in Brandenburg is big into drag cars, but can build anything. Just take him the Lemons rules and how not to fail tech information. There is another guy I can recommend. Craig Thompson. He put a straight axle in a Dodge Lancer for me. He has built a lot of cages, cars, etc. His shop is in the Upton area. Check out Renegade Race Cars on Facebook.

Off-Kilter Racing
'62 Plymouth Valiant "ToadRacer" - Organizer's Choice, IOE...
'86 Toyota MR2 (needs engine)

19 (edited by zac.s.caldwell 2022-04-07 07:53 AM)

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

Dudefladge wrote:

Hey Zac,



Once you get into performance and handling upgrades (down the road, after you get things sorted and on track) you could check in with the SDAC (Shelby Dodge Auto Club) folks. They are all about FWD turbo stuff and often use caravan parts as upgrades for their smaller cars.

There are several aftermarket suppliers (last I checked) for the FWD turbo cars and a lot of that technology translates to your caravan.

I AM NOT RECOMMENDING YOU ADD A TURBO TO YOUR CARAVAN!!! LOL

Get a good, comfortable seat. Good mirrors are important, especially in a van. You'll be getting passed a lot.

Do you have a cage builder picked out yet? Quinn Shireman (Quinn's Chassis) in Brandenburg is big into drag cars, but can build anything. Just take him the Lemons rules and how not to fail tech information. There is another guy I can recommend. Craig Thompson. He put a straight axle in a Dodge Lancer for me. He has built a lot of cages, cars, etc. His shop is in the Upton area. Check out Renegade Race Cars on Facebook.


I was supposed to do the motorcycle track day at NCM last weekend, but note again the broken collarbone. That's a hell of a story. I'm planning on shaking the car out first at some larger parking lots around here- for breaking, handling balance, the low speed stuff. Then I'll head down to bowling green and give 'er the beans.

I don't intend to turbo this car, the cylinder walls, I'm told, are far to thin. The way I read it, this 3.8 is a re-engineered 3.3. I don't know how much of that half liter came from boring (or whatever the manufacturing equivalent is) but it's enough that the engine won't take much boost.

I'm getting a seat soon, installed as soon as the thing is stripped.

I'll hit up Craig, I'm in Glendale, so Upton is right there. 

I'm so glad to have all the good advice I've gotten in this thread.

If you’re gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

As a fellow Caravan owner, I'm impressed.

Good luck. Especially keeping the transmission intact.

Also, maybe not for your first outing, but the Transcontinental Drifters achieved some weight loss by cutting off the back of their roof:
https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1WdmFn8GnK3GrEzuPsJSiC5ZTVmC4aH2K

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

Yeah!  You could make it into a Ute!! :-)

Off-Kilter Racing
'62 Plymouth Valiant "ToadRacer" - Organizer's Choice, IOE...
'86 Toyota MR2 (needs engine)

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

https://imgur.com/a/tdJ9xlh

This is like the third time I’ve tried to submit this post, so if it’s a repeat I’ll delete one of them.

Quick update, including photo thread above with new photos of progress after the second workday on the caravan.  Bigger pile of stuff out of the car, smaller pile of stuff in the car. One of the questions I have right now is whatever that stuff is on the floor. It looks like some sort of cured adhesive, but I can’t quite tell. It’s pretty hard, but it’s not metal. I’ll have to scrape some of it off or grind it off to find space for spreader plates.

Plan for the next workday is to begin the mechanical assessment and repairs. Get it up on jackstands and examine brakes, suspension, and the exhaust path. I will probably pull one part out of the front end of the airway, there’s one little bottle neck before the air filter that can open up some breathing. I have heard the remarks about high flow air filters, and I will continue to use the stock paper filter.

The dream is to fabricate the exhaust path into side pipes, but that might be more work than I am capable of at this point. I might just fabricate some painted PVC to look like for side pipes on each side, attached to the sliding middle doors, such that the pipes move when the door opens. Completely useless, completely tasteless, but it will almost certainly always make me giggle.

My main question is how much work I need to do on the exhaust to balance safety, volume, and efficiency. I would like to keep this car street legal enough to drive it to the track. Maybe, hopefully, do a Lemons rally in it.

At any rate, this is where I am in the process. I have probably overworked my collarbone and will get scolded by my orthopedist on Friday. I appreciate this forum’s advice and good humor, my goal is to keep this thread updating throughout the build process, mostly to leverage this communities Goodwill to my maximum benefit.

Hope everyone at Pit had a good time, drove safely, and stayed as warm and dry as possible.

If you’re gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.

Re: Team Bad Dads racing build: 2005 Dodge Caravan.

Didn't see any other pics.

Stuff on the floor - sound deadening material? Dry ice, and some recommend iso-alcohol, to get it off; more detail in other threads.