Topic: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

We area glad everyone is ok and apologize to the team with the Volvo that were innocent bystanders.  Just putting this here as we can all never learn too much to stay safe out there.  I never heard from the folks in the Honda so I hope they are ok as well.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lOWS5Q … p=drivesdk

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

I was the first truck behind the wreck and have it on video. I’ll post it when I get a chance. I have a strong opinion of what happened, but will let you all duke it out first.

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

It was a real bummer for us as I just took over as the team captain and I had to tow home a destroyed race car.  With 30 minutes left in a 2 day race I can't imagine they were shooting a gap and being aggressive.  I am holding out hope that they just didn't see us.  Just posting the video as a learning experience so other teams might be able to avoid a similar situation.  I feel bad for the guys on my team as this will likely force us to miss Buttonwillow.

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

I don't want to place any blame, but as I would have approached it:
- I would have pulled behind the BMW to pass as well.
- When the red Honda pulled out I would have probably backed off or moved to the left if there was room and prepare to back off if the Honda kept moving left.  To me there appears to be a few feet available on the left.
- If I was the red Honda driver I would have waited for you to pass before I tried to pass

It looks to me as if your driver became fixated on the Honda and steered towards it.  It would be interesting to see a camera from behind.

Also do your tires stick out beyond your fenders?  Your wheels must have made contact to jump like that.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

5 (edited by e8r23i80c 2022-06-03 09:09 AM)

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

This is the best pic I could find.  Our tires don't stick out but based on where the tire mark is I'm guessing once we started to go sideways and driver tried to correct the tires were able to make contact.

https://postimg.cc/3Wvnd7V0

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

I've only been in one race (NJMP), so please take these comments from the perspective of my relative ignorance vis-a-vis: racing; I also don't know the track involved, so I'm _specifically_ ignorant in that area.

"Shooting a gap and being aggressive" - to which driver are you referring?

If i were in the camera car, I would not have attempted to pass the car with the wing at that time.

Earlier? yes. Later? dunno; but definitely not then.

And if I found myself in that position, I'd have given way - early.

Reviewing the whole 1:30 video:
As an initial overview, there's a line of 5 cars, in a pod, turning laps 30 minutes before the end of a 2-day endurance race. They seem to be keeping in order and working together.

First thing I see (after everybody passing the land yacht) is the pod approaching a slow-down corner, and the driver of the camera car gets inside the car with the wing, in a position I would never be in:
1. Blind spot
2. Front bumper looks to be ahead of the rear bumper of the wing car
3. No chance of passing on the inside

Wing driver keeps to the line. They're ahead, have been ahead, and havn't been significantly challenged (in the video). Wing driver goes to the apex, and gets through safely. Driver of the camera car runs over the curb on that corner, and gets bounced around a bit; I'm guessing they gave way to the inside more than dropping behind.

I'd have chosen differently.

Hypothetical:
If the wing car had _only_just_ passed camera car prior to the corner, what should camera car do? I think: yield the line.

Second thing I notice is the car with the wing (I'm wildly speculating now) showing the camera car how to hug the inside to set up a pass, but in a reasonable position. I see this for the next few corners where the pod slows down.

I _like_ where that driver puts their car. I'd follow them. I'd try to pass them, but I'd have confidence following them - they seem to make good choices.

The faster (BMW?) passes on the long straight, camera car moves to follow them, but not immediately. One car _significantly_ slows down on the right, and wing car moves to pass. Maybe a little wider than needed; but they're ahead, and clearly so.

Analysis:
1. Wing car deliberately and reasonably moves to the left trying to pass the slowing car on the right
2. Camera car is clearly behind, but as they accelerate moves into - yet again - a blind spot
3. Camera car moves to the left, but _not_ all the way to the left edge
4. Most importantly, camera car doesn't drop behind the leading wing car; I think that's the cause of the collision.

"Don't hit what you can see."

It's not clearly shown, but I'd be interested in which car had the advantage in a power-to-weight differential for passing.

Wing and camera seem really close - but there's only 1:30 of video. Camera is accelerating quickly following the BMW, faster than wing, but that may just be the part of the power band they're in - dunno.

If wing had the advantage, camera should have known it and given way.

If camera had a significant advantage, they should have pushed it earlier on the straight; they'd have been next to, or ahead of, wing car by the _beginning_ of the move to the center of the straight, in which case wing should give way. But they weren't - they waited too long. I think camera should give way because wing was still ahead.

Since they seem close, camera should still have avoided wing.

Though if I were wing, and (key to this) if I had seen camera's move, like rb, I'd certainly avoid contact.

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

rb92673 wrote:

I don't want to place any blame, but as I would have approached it:
- I would have pulled behind the BMW to pass as well.
- When the red Honda pulled out I would have probably backed off or moved to the left if there was room and prepare to back off if the Honda kept moving left.  To me there appears to be a few feet available on the left.
- If I was the red Honda driver I would have waited for you to pass before I tried to pass

It looks to me as if your driver became fixated on the Honda and steered towards it.  It would be interesting to see a camera from behind.

Also do your tires stick out beyond your fenders?  Your wheels must have made contact to jump like that.

I was behind the cars and I believe your analysis is accurate.  Being the end of Sunday, I don't feel anyone was being too racey.  It was tight, but could have been avoided. 

There was a much slower car to the right.  Red car made a move to pass.  White car had tremendous amount of speed relative to the other cars on track (after the wreck hit the dino car way in front of the wreck).  Red car squeezed white car.  White car should have braked or moved further left to pass.  IMO the driver was fixated on the car he was passing and unintentionally turned into the red car.  Screenshots of the onboard confirm the steering input.  I do not believe the red car ever saw the white car.  I also don't think the white car's pass was overly aggressive.  I would have done the same, though I would have put a tire off if needed(wouldn't have been the first time).

It's a shitty experience to wreck a car at the end of the race (trust me, I know too well). 

Wreck at 2:40  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSC6YfC2uTk

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

Seeing the video from Bricoop's car I would say the red car didn't need to move over so far to the left, but the white car could have easily avoided the red car and may have accidentally turned in to the red car.

While the white car didn't start out in the vortex of danger, when the red car moved they were then in the vortex.

Sucks all around.

Good luck with repairs to the car.  I have seen some pretty mangled cars get fixed and back out on track with some chain, a tree and a BFH.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

Sorry for your loss, I think every captain fears this scenario. I think this is a perfect example of an accident where both parties had opportunities for avoidance, but did not take them. Considering there's only 30 min left and with the culture of Lemons, I don't think the choice was from red mist but probably fatigue from one driver not seeing a car in their blind spot (be honest... we've all done it) and the other driver deciding to hold their line in the assumption that they are seen.

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Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

1000% not placing any blame.  Just wanted to post so that others may learn and hopefully avoid an unfortunate situation for all involved.  Becoming team captain at the end of this race I am definitely getting put through all the paces after this.  With my stubborn determination I am confident we will get back out there soon enough.

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

Agree this doesn't seem like a "red haze" issue.

I'll state categorically:
I've never - ever - seen a car in my blind spot, because definition.

Still, Rule 6.1: 100% at fault series.

My collision was my fault.

12 (edited by kornfeld 2022-06-03 04:59 PM)

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

Wow. This is such a shame. I totally agree on rule 6.1 coming to life here--this feels, interestingly, like it 100% could have been avoided by both cars.

Having said that, and in the spirit of learning: we don't know if the red car saw the white car, but we know with absolute certainty that the white car saw the red. Particularly since this unfolded so, so, so slowly.

This is not an example of the vortex of danger, but it does illustrate one very narrow point, that is related: Don't hit what you can see. The white car could see the red car. The white car shouldn't have hit the red car. There should have been some avoidance action.

The red car does have a responsibility to be aware of what is around them, and it appears as though they failed in that responsibility. But the white car definitely drove into the red car.

For the sake of argument, we could say that the red car did see the white car, and intentionally moved over to try and block them. Even in that case, the white car had control of the situation and could have avoided the red, because they could see this happening.

The red car wandering over on the straightaway created this dangerous situation; but the white car drove into them.

We all make mistakes--live and learn!

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

I slowed the first posted video to 25% speed.

At 0:59, the white dino car comes into view on the right side of the track; it's WAY slower than I originally thought.

There's about 4 seconds between when:
1. a car suddenly moves left to avoid a significantly slower car, and
2. the dino car thereby comes into view, and
3. the red car begins to move over;

And:

1. the first impact (of white and red).

I think the red car looks to avoid hitting something they can see, and I think their attention is forward, not on their mirrors.

I'm thinking the red car moves over as they know (guess? - my speculation) they started out well ahead of the white car when the above first three events occurred, and had the space  - more than a car length - to do that.

And, that trailing cars should be able to see the congestion in front of them, anticipate a problem, and avoid contact.

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

As Judge Eric once said to me after having some minor contact after making the exact same pass in that exact same location: "When is going three wide ever a good idea?"

Glad everybody is OK.

--bb

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

billy bee wrote:

As Judge Eric once said to me after having some minor contact after making the exact same pass in that exact same location: "When is going three wide ever a good idea?"

Glad everybody is OK.

--bb

Yeah, but f*** that guy.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

rb92673 wrote:

Seeing the video from Bricoop's car I would say the red car didn't need to move over so far to the left, but the white car could have easily avoided the red car and may have accidentally turned in to the red car.

This is my take as well.

I watched the before reading any comments, I was thinking at the 1:00 mark "This guy (camera car) see's this guy (red car) coming right? 
It seems with 20/20 hindsight you could have moved left to avoid the hit, but IMO the red car was fixated on the slow car in front when he moved left and never even saw you.  I'd give this a 50-50 split on who's at fault, but playing Monday morning QB is easy right?

As has been said, yeah it sucks, but in racing sh*t happens.  We've all been there, and if you haven't been there....stay tuned.  At the end of the day, nobody got hurt, and that's really all that matters.

Captain
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Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

Bricoop wrote:
rb92673 wrote:

I don't want to place any blame, but as I would have approached it:
- I would have pulled behind the BMW to pass as well.
- When the red Honda pulled out I would have probably backed off or moved to the left if there was room and prepare to back off if the Honda kept moving left.  To me there appears to be a few feet available on the left.
- If I was the red Honda driver I would have waited for you to pass before I tried to pass

It looks to me as if your driver became fixated on the Honda and steered towards it.  It would be interesting to see a camera from behind.

Also do your tires stick out beyond your fenders?  Your wheels must have made contact to jump like that.

I was behind the cars and I believe your analysis is accurate.  Being the end of Sunday, I don't feel anyone was being too racey.  It was tight, but could have been avoided. 

There was a much slower car to the right.  Red car made a move to pass.  White car had tremendous amount of speed relative to the other cars on track (after the wreck hit the dino car way in front of the wreck).  Red car squeezed white car.  White car should have braked or moved further left to pass.  IMO the driver was fixated on the car he was passing and unintentionally turned into the red car.  Screenshots of the onboard confirm the steering input.  I do not believe the red car ever saw the white car.  I also don't think the white car's pass was overly aggressive.  I would have done the same, though I would have put a tire off if needed(wouldn't have been the first time).

It's a shitty experience to wreck a car at the end of the race (trust me, I know too well). 

Wreck at 2:40  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSC6YfC2uTk

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Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

Bricoop wrote:
rb92673 wrote:

I don't want to place any blame, but as I would have approached it:
- I would have pulled behind the BMW to pass as well.
- When the red Honda pulled out I would have probably backed off or moved to the left if there was room and prepare to back off if the Honda kept moving left.  To me there appears to be a few feet available on the left.
- If I was the red Honda driver I would have waited for you to pass before I tried to pass

It looks to me as if your driver became fixated on the Honda and steered towards it.  It would be interesting to see a camera from behind.

Also do your tires stick out beyond your fenders?  Your wheels must have made contact to jump like that.

I was behind the cars and I believe your analysis is accurate.  Being the end of Sunday, I don't feel anyone was being too racey.  It was tight, but could have been avoided. 

There was a much slower car to the right.  Red car made a move to pass.  White car had tremendous amount of speed relative to the other cars on track (after the wreck hit the dino car way in front of the wreck).  Red car squeezed white car.  White car should have braked or moved further left to pass.  IMO the driver was fixated on the car he was passing and unintentionally turned into the red car.  Screenshots of the onboard confirm the steering input.  I do not believe the red car ever saw the white car.  I also don't think the white car's pass was overly aggressive.  I would have done the same, though I would have put a tire off if needed(wouldn't have been the first time).

It's a shitty experience to wreck a car at the end of the race (trust me, I know too well). 

Wreck at 2:40  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSC6YfC2uTk

I fully agree. I think the Red car was worried about their closing speed on the white car. They probably saw one car pass them on the left and didn't see a second car closing very quickly. The white passing car could've shifted more to the left but maybe didn't see the red car coming.

I think it was just an unfortunate set of circumstances.

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19 (edited by kornfeld 2022-06-08 01:25 PM)

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

I totally agree that the red car played a role in creating this dangerous situation, but I'm having a hard time seeing how the contact itself is anything other than the white car's fault.

Imagine I have my leg sticking out in a walkway, and I see someone approaching who isn't paying attention. If I see them coming, and I just continue to leave my leg in their way, and I watch them walk all the way over until they trip on my leg....sure, they should have been paying attention, but I still caused the tripping itself.

Either the white car *did* see the red car coming, and did nothing (well, it looks like they might have done worse than nothing); in which case, the red car should have had more situational awareness, but the white car is to blame for the crash itself;

or, the white car *didn't* see the red car coming, in which case they either need to do some major work on their ability to see things or they should consider not racing anymore.

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

therood wrote:
billy bee wrote:

As Judge Eric once said to me after having some minor contact after making the exact same pass in that exact same location: "When is going three wide ever a good idea?"

Glad everybody is OK.

--bb

Yeah, but f*** that guy.

Eric, that was the last Black Flag I received and that was in 2018... Lucky for me (and probably others) your message got through.

--bb

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

kornfeld wrote:

I totally agree that the red car played a role in creating this dangerous situation, but I'm having a hard time seeing how the contact itself is anything other than the white car's fault.

Imagine I have my leg sticking out in a walkway, and I see someone approaching who isn't paying attention. If I see them coming, and I just continue to leave my leg in their way, and I watch them walk all the way over until they trip on my leg....sure, they should have been paying attention, but I still caused the tripping itself.

Either the white car *did* see the red car coming, and did nothing (well, it looks like they might have done worse than nothing); in which case, the red car should have had more situational awareness, but the white car is to blame for the crash itself;

or, the white car *didn't* see the red car coming, in which case they either need to do some major work on their ability to see things or they should consider not racing anymore.

Since the Lemons crash CSI continues, I might as well chime in.  I generally agree with this but feel the red car has less culpability than people infer here.  The red car appears to be anticipating that they need to make room in case the red/white/blue car movies over into their lane to pass the white volvo.  The camera car is moving up in the red car's blind spot about to not make it 3 wide but 4 wide when it all goes sideways.  Unmentioned in all this is they are about to come up on that left hand kink.  I can understand the red car's actions but the camera car trying to fly it in there was a bad decision.  They had time when they got to the red car's hip to see the white volvo up there and that it was about to go 3, maybe 4 wide plus everyone was about to turn left and the camera car still had time to nope their way back out.   An unfortunate preventable crash.

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22 (edited by Lemon_Newton-Metre 2022-06-09 11:26 AM)

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

I completely agree with cheseroo (and initially wrote something almost exactly like his 3rd sentence above).

There's about 3 seconds from the red car's move left until the first impact, and about 4 seconds from the blue car's move to avoid the slow Volvo until the first impact.

There was SO much time to choose differently; ...so much time....

I've been wondering if the OP's (at least first two) posts were an attempt to avoid a direct confrontation with their teammate driver regarding their choice.

If this happened on my team, there would be an "additional monetary contribution" discussion in my driver's immediate future - though by this time, it would already have happened. But, since my efforts are for family and friends, I wouldn't even have to initiate it.

I think the consensus is clear on the opportunity and responsibility for avoiding the collision.

I note - with approval - the OP's apology to the Volvo team...
...

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

chaase wrote:

They probably saw one car pass them on the left and didn't see a second car closing very quickly.

I tried to impress this on my drivers for our first race. It’s dangerous to jump on a train of fast cars that is going past a slower one. The slow car should check mirrors on the straight and see a car passing, but they may not see another car (or more) behind the first passing car. If they don’t re-check mirrors, they may assume they can use the whole track after the first car is past.

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

Camper Van Someren wrote:
chaase wrote:

They probably saw one car pass them on the left and didn't see a second car closing very quickly.

I tried to impress this on my drivers for our first race. It’s dangerous to jump on a train of fast cars that is going past a slower one. The slow car should check mirrors on the straight and see a car passing, but they may not see another car (or more) behind the first passing car. If they don’t re-check mirrors, they may assume they can use the whole track after the first car is past.

1000% percent correct  https://www.instagram.com/p/CUTfW-TpQZu/

Re: crash video with 30 min left at Thunderhill

Bricoop wrote:
Camper Van Someren wrote:
chaase wrote:

They probably saw one car pass them on the left and didn't see a second car closing very quickly.

I tried to impress this on my drivers for our first race. It’s dangerous to jump on a train of fast cars that is going past a slower one. The slow car should check mirrors on the straight and see a car passing, but they may not see another car (or more) behind the first passing car. If they don’t re-check mirrors, they may assume they can use the whole track after the first car is past.

1000% percent correct  https://www.instagram.com/p/CUTfW-TpQZu/

I don't get the narrative that the red car caused this crash, absolving the camera car.  The red car was passing another car but also had enough situational awareness to see that the car they were passing may also need room to pass the white volvo and made room for that possibility.  Yet they still left a lane open for following traffic to pass on their left.  The following traffic then ran over the red car even though they had time to realize that 3, soon to be 4 wide was a bad idea here and nope their way out.  While Lemons uses the generic "all at fault: stance for penalties, I still think the general racing rule of  "the responsibility for the decision to pass another car and do it safely rests with the overtaking driver" applies here.  Based on what I see on this video, the camera car is the only one that fails that test.  I get that you need to be aware of what's coming up behind you.  I think the red car did so here and made allowances for that.

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