26 (edited by Raoul Duke 2022-04-13 12:07 PM)

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Max wrote:
Raoul Duke wrote:

Does anyone have lap times @ HPR in a MK4 2.slow- or similar car?

I looked back at last year's HPR races and found a 2002 Golf that raced in June and its fasted lap was a 2:30.1. 


In my inexpert opinion you "should" be able to put down a sub-2:30 time at HPR in just about any car running 200TW tires.  If you can consistently run low to mid 2:20 times you'll be in the thick of it in June.  Run clean, keep your pit stops short, and have no major mechanical issues and finish in the top 10. 

Shot in the dark - were you at HPR this last Sunday?  We were there and I remember seeing an older black VW hatch with a cage.

Yes, that was me/us, and YOU sir, are fast AF. Sorry if I got in your way or did something stupid. We had "Bravarius HM 5" tires with 420 TW, and my best lap was 2:32 (ish?) having never been there, or on a track in the last 15+ years. I need more practice.

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

OnkelUdo wrote:
Raoul Duke wrote:

Does anyone have lap times @ HPR in a MK4 2.slow- or similar car?

There are plenty of folks I am sure but that is literally the last thing you need to be focusing on attempting to get to your first race.

Get it to pass tech
Get there with an actual team
Get it reliable

Odds are you will be VERY challenged to accomplish the above goals.

It's a metric I'd like to know- data is useful no matter what one's level of competence is.

We've been in close and constant contact with John Pagel during the building of this car and I am quite confident we have built a proper car that will pass tech.

We have a team assembled, and in theory, they are all functioning adults (although I am the questionable one by most accounting).

Bought my first VW in 1983, a 1975 MK1 ShitRocket, and Ive had every MK since, in multiples. Ive been a German marques mechanic for 30 years. I can't change bad engineering, but I can certainly understand why things fail, how to (possibly) prevent that, and if nothing else- bring spares.

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Raoul Duke wrote:
OnkelUdo wrote:
Raoul Duke wrote:

Does anyone have lap times @ HPR in a MK4 2.slow- or similar car?

There are plenty of folks I am sure but that is literally the last thing you need to be focusing on attempting to get to your first race.

Get it to pass tech
Get there with an actual team
Get it reliable

Odds are you will be VERY challenged to accomplish the above goals.

It's a metric I'd like to know- data is useful no matter what one's level of competence is.

We've been in close and constant contact with John Pagel during the building of this car and I am quite confident we have built a proper car that will pass tech.

We have a team assembled, and in theory, they are all functioning adults (although I am the questionable one by most accounting).

Bought my first VW in 1983, a 1975 MK1 ShitRocket, and Ive had every MK since, in multiples. Ive been a German marques mechanic for 30 years. I can't change bad engineering, but I can certainly understand why things fail, how to (possibly) prevent that, and if nothing else- bring spares.

Sounds like you got the basics and I totally get it on data points.  I might being showing my bias here as well as we have not had anything to benchmark since we retired our first car (not many U-bodies, '47 Plymouths or flathead-powered Cameros to compare lap times to). 

Overall the lap time is well below total time on track as a valid metric of performance as it takes (at most paces) about 28-32 laps at 10-seconds faster a lap to make up for a single drive-through black flag penalty or several multples of that for an (infamous for that platform) mid-race wheel bearing swap even with spare loaded knuckles.

And for the guy asking on tires, as others have said one of three common 200TW tires will make more a difference to lap times than anything but the driver mod.  They also tend to last longer in (almost) all situations and I would have to assume a three-wheeler in the corners like most Golfs and Jettas we have seen would need a heat tolerant tire (most 400+ tire tend chunk badly at race pace) more than say a Humber Super Snipe.

29

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Raoul Duke wrote:

Yes, that was me/us, and YOU sir, are fast AF. Sorry if I got in your way or did something stupid. We had "Bravarius HM 5" tires with 420 TW, and my best lap was 2:32 (ish?) having never been there, or on a track in the last 15+ years. I need more practice.

You and yours were absolutely fine out there, especially considering you've never been to HPR.  The best part about practicing at the track is that you're practicing at the track which is inherently fun.

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

I highly recommend not even looking at lap times during your first race, certainly not tracking them inside the car at all. That's an unnecessary external pressure. Seat time improves lap time naturally; it's the one thing in endurance racing that will sort itself for beginners and therefore shouldn't be a concern.

IMHO, your first race's priorities should be:

(1) Pass Tech (Sounds like you're on your way there).

(2) Pay attention to what's going on. There's a steep learning curve. Some teams figure it out quickly, some don't. The observant ones who ask questions tend to do well, long term.

(3) Focus on no black flags. That's really Goal #1. Black-flag offenses are black-flag offenses because they can all potentially get people hurt and (less importantly) ruin your car. If you're competitively minded, black flags remove time you could be clocking laps. If you're financially minded, black flags remove track time that you've paid for.

(4) Any kind of driver coaching should focus on mechanical sympathy: check gauges on the straights every lap, observe the rev limiter, know what to do when the GIANT oil pressure light and ear-splitting buzzer comes on. You wouldn't believe how many people come into the Penalty Box having gone full send because "Someone on the team said I could take that corner in fourth gear." Driver ability varies greatly and too much information is often a hindrance.

(5) Get everyone on the team cycled through the car early in the race. My team went with 25-minute stints to get everyone acclimated and not overwork anyone. Lemons is A LOT to experience if you're a novice. High Plains is probably the least-dense field, but there's still a lot to track mentally.

(6) Make efficient but unhurried driver changes and fuel stops. Like lap time, this will get quicker naturally as you do it more.

Not really a competition strategy, but also make sure everyone on your team knows (a) how to get out of the car quickly, (b) where ALL of the major controls are (ignition, killswitch, fire-suppression, warning lights), and (c) what number the car is. You think I'm kidding on the last one, but write it on the dashboard unequivocally: "YOU ARE CAR #112."

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

therood wrote:

...write it on the dashboard unequivocally: "YOU ARE CAR #112."

Yes. Even if you're sure that you yourself know the number and won't forget it, think about whether every other driver will be in that position. A friend once let me take his car out for a few laps and it was only after I was on track that I realized I had no idea what its number was. Entirely my fault for not thinking of this before getting in the car, of course, but a reminder on the dash is just a good thing to have.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Outstanding advice from all, and all has been noted, thank you.

We have a set of the Hankook Ventus RS-4s on the way based on retail availability and this forums advice. We will rally the team and attempt to make as many HPR practice sessions as possible.

What I'm hearing is we need to get used to a crowded track/traffic, how to behave in that circumstance, and how to process it all at speed.

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Raoul Duke wrote:

Outstanding advice from all, and all has been noted, thank you.

We have a set of the Hankook Ventus RS-4s on the way based on retail availability and this forums advice. We will rally the team and attempt to make as many HPR practice sessions as possible.

What I'm hearing is we need to get used to a crowded track/traffic, how to behave in that circumstance, and how to process it all at speed.

Excellent choice! Correct, I think you'll be alright though since it sounds like you're willing to be considerate of other drivers. My impression at HPR was there were a lot of safe places to pass... there are lots of areas that allow power cars to pass and lots of wide sweepers that allow grip cars to pass... this could have also felt easier though since the car count was half of the amount at our sonoma race. My other impression from our first time at HPR was "holy crap this track is blind" and "*mid-corner* oops... I thought this corner was that corner". Super fun track, if it wasn't so far I'd love to go to it more regularly, but it does take a bit of time to gain confidence there. FWIW, I think at the end of our test day/first time at the track, we were at around a 2:30-2:35 and worked our way down to 2:17 at the end of the 24hr race. The track has an amazing flow once you hit a rhythm.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Raoul Duke wrote:
Mick25 wrote:

Former MK2 Golf Lemons Racer here.  We were at the sharp end of the speed curve when racing the Golf (multiple top 5 overall finishes), and NEVER had a front wheel bearing failure.  However, we did all the above recommendations, and inspected the front wheels at every opportunity.  Finding GOOD bearings is a mandatory duty.  Run cooling pipes to the brakes/hubs.  Stake the axle nut as well, don't rely on the nylok, and you cannot get the nut too tight.  If you check the lug bolts, check the axle nut as well.  We swapped out half shafts every 3-5 races if we even thought it may have wear, they were cheap.

Roger that, and thanks for taking the time to reply, that goes for ALL of you!

We are going to run ducts from each side of the lower valance into 3" hose, and I will concoct a way to aim said CFM at the rear of the hub/bearing.


Half-Fast Racing has more than 15 races on 2001/2002 New Beetles, which is the same Mk 4 platform as the Golf & Jetta. Had heard of the wheel bearing issues for Mk 4s, so bought a couple of sets of bearings and hubs before our first race to take with us in the parts box, but have never had a wheel bearing fail.  6 races on our first Beetle, the same on the replacement Beetle, and the other Beetle now has 4 races on it.  I guess we've been lucky, or maybe we're just so slow we don't stress them much.  We do check them before and during each race but haven't had to replace them yet.

On the other hand, we have gone through at least two sets of CV axles on each car.  As someone on here said, check the axles when you buy them. Autozone, O'Reilly's, and Advance Auto have all sold me incorrect axleshafts that were listed as correct for my engine/transmission/year.  The lengths are slightly different for the 2.0/1.8/diesel/auto/5 spd/6 spd (in the Turbo S). After the second time I had to take new axles back, I started pulling the old ones first and laying them on the checkout counter next to the new ones to inspect exact length before paying. Since they aren't expensive, we now keep a spare driver & passenger side CV axle for each of our cars in the parts trailer.

3 inch dryer ducting works well for brake/hub cooling.  We run it from the fog light openings (3 inch diameter). It is flexible enough to route around the suspension parts.

35 (edited by Raoul Duke 2022-05-26 03:51 PM)

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Less than two weeks to the BFE GP and I think we are as dialed in as we can be. We have been texting pics to John Pagel, of every tiny thing I can think of that might trip us up, and I feel quite good about the car passing tech. Our personal gear has been accumulated, often times in multiples, and we have had quite a few practice sessions at HPR. We have our car number in the car even!

The addition of the RS-4s helped immensely in every way imaginable. My lap times are ~2:24 with a somewhat clear track, slightly worse when there is traffic or I get pounced on out of nowhere by a GT3 (which, in theory, will not happen at a Lemons event).

We did a night session as we are also doing the true 24 in SEPT. I lost 5-6 secs a lap in the dark due to abysmal lighting. Ahead OE lighting is more than fine, its corninging where you need to up the game 4x. What we ran was a set of Hella 500s, which in hindsight, was pretty FN dumb. We have a set of Hella Rally 4000 in a true "cornering beam" inbound, which ought to help matters.

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Raoul Duke wrote:

We did a night session as we are also doing the true 24 in SEPT. I lost 5-6 secs a lap in the dark due to abysmal lighting. Ahead OE lighting is more than fine, its corninging where you need to up the game 4x. What we ran was a set of Hella 500s, which in hindsight, was pretty FN dumb. We have a set of Hella Rally 4000 in a true "cornering beam" inbound, which ought to help matters.

I ran Hella 500s floods as cornering lights on that track at night and they were fine.  You need to angle them about 30-45 degrees.  That track has great markings for braking, turn in, apex and turn out.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

37 (edited by Raoul Duke 2022-05-27 08:13 AM)

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

rb92673 wrote:
Raoul Duke wrote:

We did a night session as we are also doing the true 24 in SEPT. I lost 5-6 secs a lap in the dark due to abysmal lighting. Ahead OE lighting is more than fine, its corninging where you need to up the game 4x. What we ran was a set of Hella 500s, which in hindsight, was pretty FN dumb. We have a set of Hella Rally 4000 in a true "cornering beam" inbound, which ought to help matters.

I ran Hella 500s floods as cornering lights on that track at night and they were fine.  You need to angle them about 30-45 degrees.  That track has great markings for braking, turn in, apex and turn out.

We ran Hella 500s in a pencil/driving beam, they were kicking around the shop so we gave them a try. They were aimed out, but given the narrow beam, we couldn't find the sweet spot for aiming that gave everyone on our team what they were looking for.

https://i.ibb.co/NnhZbCv/B75-A8-D2-F-345-C-496-C-BFEF-AC8-BB89-C18-AB.jpg

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

We showed up to HPR with a bunch of amazon flood lights we had laying around... looked bright testing driving around the neighborhood but once we were out there they were useless. Luckily someone had some Hellas for sale at the track and those saved our butts. They do an excellent job marking corners and with some good projection (actual brightness is less important) and allowed us to just focus on corner markers and other cars. Partly due to cooler temps, our fastest times were actually at night.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Is this still even a thing ? I haven’t logged into the forum in ages

"Remember if the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy"--Red Green

40

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Awesome to hear the RS4s helped! 

One thing to note for the 24 is that the track will install reflectors on the inside of the turns which helps out immensely.  Navigating will be easier during the race than in any pre-race testing.

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Max wrote:

Awesome to hear the RS4s helped! 

One thing to note for the 24 is that the track will install reflectors on the inside of the turns which helps out immensely.  Navigating will be easier during the race than in any pre-race testing.

Ah, nice! That will be a big help.

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Max wrote:

Awesome to hear the RS4s helped! 

One thing to note for the 24 is that the track will install reflectors on the inside of the turns which helps out immensely.  Navigating will be easier during the race than in any pre-race testing.

Speaking of reflectors .. run a strip of reflective tape around the circumference of your car. Makes you more visible and gives a down-range driver more info if you spin out.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

duthehustle93 wrote:
Max wrote:

Awesome to hear the RS4s helped! 

One thing to note for the 24 is that the track will install reflectors on the inside of the turns which helps out immensely.  Navigating will be easier during the race than in any pre-race testing.

Speaking of reflectors .. run a strip of reflective tape around the circumference of your car. Makes you more visible and gives a down-range driver more info if you spin out.

Excellent idea- add to cart- THX

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

First off, I'd like to say that this is a great thread, with so much valuable info! I learned a lot just reading through it.

Our team - Team Slowtus - runs a Ford Focus, which also has hub bearing issues. We (also) haven't had any hub bearings issues yet, but I bought pretty good bearings on RockAuto, and I feel validated by many of the comments on here because I also bring spare CV axles and new bearings pressed into a spare set of knuckles, just in case.

Something else I found helpful: if at all possible, have a spare set of wheels and tires ready to go. In our last race, we had the lower control arm/knuckle bolt give out and it destroyed the wheel - not the tire, the actual wheel hoop got completely shredded. Luckily we had a spare set of wheels and tires that we use for "practice" that we used to finish the race. I found 4 decent Falkens that had a little wear on Facebook marketplace from someone who did a couple of autocross sessions and didn't like them.

Good luck at HPD!

#22 Team Slowtus Ford Focus

45 (edited by Raoul Duke 2022-06-20 04:27 PM)

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

A bit if a "re-cap" of events:

Once we had the car built we put about 14 hrs of track time on it over 3 different open lap days at HPR. This was incredibly helpful, as one might imagine, in learning the track and lines (without 70 some odd other people on track with you). What was also useful was experimenting with tire pressures, as well as the effect of ambient temps on pressures/grip etc. We got used to our gear, sorted out GoPro mounts and fine tuned our comm equipment as well.

Not to brag, but we sailed through race day tech. Mr Pagel was mildly annoyed he couldn't find faults in a first timer car wink I cannot stress enough how helpful  Mr Pagel was along the build process to keep us out of trouble. He answers his emails quickly, so vet any build process with him before you commit to anything.

Wheel bearings have NOT been an issue for us, yet. There are nearly 30 hours of track use on the set in the Golf, they exhibit zero play of any kind. We pulled the backing plates on all discs when we built the car. We also have no front fender liners and the OE bumper cover has large square holes that feed directly into the wheel house. I like to use the kerbs, and you'd think that kind of behavior would have brought them to failure by now. They are "no name" bearings as well, they came in a kit from Dorman which included the wheel flange, for very little money. We are using nylon lock nuts for the CV shaft, TQ'd to 275 lbs/ft. The nylon insert hasn't even melted yet (which I read was common on this platform).

We managed to finish 16th over all, and 7th in B class in our first outing, which seems commendable enough. We had a SUPER time, and everyone at the event was as nice as you could possibly imagine. Looking very much FWD to SEPT's true 24!

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

Congratulations!! Do you bring spare wheel bearings with you? As long as you bring them, you'll never need to use them... at least how it works for us lol.

Re " large square holes that feed directly into the wheel house" just make sure they're directed to the center of the rotors and/or wheel bearings. The wheel well already has plenty of turbulent high pressure air.

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i

47 (edited by Raoul Duke 2022-06-21 12:17 PM)

Re: New team running a MK4 Golf 2.slow, need some advice

duthehustle93 wrote:

Congratulations!! Do you bring spare wheel bearings with you? As long as you bring them, you'll never need to use them... at least how it works for us lol.

Re " large square holes that feed directly into the wheel house" just make sure they're directed to the center of the rotors and/or wheel bearings. The wheel well already has plenty of turbulent high pressure air.

We did bring fully loaded front knuckles, and as you suggest, that's why we didn't need them wink

The square holes in the valance point directly into the wheel well, and are pretty much dead centered to the CV axle/hub. Its as if VW wanted us to race this pig in Lemons tongue

#42 FLØG MÆT Racing