Topic: Service items and replacement fluids

Hi all.

I've read through the rules and I understand what is exempt from the $500 limit. However what I haven't been able to find is information that specifically explains whether service items such as oil and oil filters, and just general replacement fluids count.
Because they aren't specifically mentioned I assume that they ARE included in the $500 limit, but I also find it hard to believe that no-one is changing their oil etc!
Can anyone shed any light on this?

I assumed it would be legal to replace:
oil
oil filter
Air filter (stock)
brake fluids (obviously as brakes are exempt)
Power steering fluid if necessary
any gear or diff oil.
spark plugs
battery.

Re: Service items and replacement fluids

I think the previous owner changed all the regular maintenance fluids just before sale; to both:

1. make it so that 'no more need be done to the car for a while', and

2. to hide any defects,

... until it's too late to complain about complete failure or necessary repair / replacement.

YMMV

Re: Service items and replacement fluids

Oh thats good, because the previous owner DID just replace all the fluids, being a conscientious seller like he is.

4 (edited by chaase 2022-06-19 01:18 PM)

Re: Service items and replacement fluids

contactmattharris wrote:

Hi all.

I've read through the rules and I understand what is exempt from the $500 limit. However what I haven't been able to find is information that specifically explains whether service items such as oil and oil filters, and just general replacement fluids count.
Because they aren't specifically mentioned I assume that they ARE included in the $500 limit, but I also find it hard to believe that no-one is changing their oil etc!
Can anyone shed any light on this?

I assumed it would be legal to replace:
oil
oil filter
Air filter (stock)
brake fluids (obviously as brakes are exempt)
Power steering fluid if necessary
any gear or diff oil.
spark plugs
battery.

By the letter of the rules, they are included (except for brake fluid), do the judges care?No.

As a judge, I am looking for things like suspension mods, engine enhancements, carbon fiber body panels and other things that will make it go faster or handle better.

I don't want your power steering to fail and you crash because you didn't spend the $$$ on fresh fluid. I don't want your car to stall on the track in a bad spot because you lost a plug/wire. I definitely don't want to have the race stopped because you grenaded the diff because you didn't change the fluid.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Service items and replacement fluids

contactmattharris wrote:

Hi all.

I've read through the rules and I understand what is exempt from the $500 limit. However what I haven't been able to find is information that specifically explains whether service items such as oil and oil filters, and just general replacement fluids count.
Because they aren't specifically mentioned I assume that they ARE included in the $500 limit, but I also find it hard to believe that no-one is changing their oil etc!
Can anyone shed any light on this?

I assumed it would be legal to replace:
oil
oil filter
Air filter (stock)
brake fluids (obviously as brakes are exempt)
Power steering fluid if necessary
any gear or diff oil.
spark plugs
battery.

Don't worry about wear items like fluids and filters.  I have found that for items such as hoses, belts, plugs, wires, etc. just go through the rock auto catalog and replace if they seem suspect. At least carry spares. They don't want to tow you in because your lower radiator hose exploded the first hour.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

Re: Service items and replacement fluids

I had a new judge in training raise an eyebrow at a new coolant expansion tank... but you know, everyone benefits from not spilling fluids on the track... same with not throwing a rod due to multiple race used oil.

-Robert, Party Sheep Racing
The Jerry Lundegaard GMAC Financing Award, Joliet 2013 [Cutlass Ciera w/ Iron Duke]
Eta E30: IL Fall '15, MI Spring '16, IL Summer '16, MI Spring '17, KY '17, MI Summer '21, KY '21, MI Summer '21, MI Fall '22

Re: Service items and replacement fluids

Others have directly answered your question already, so figured I'd put in this more generalized answer. Hope it helps.

As you spend more time around the series, reading forum posts, talking to other teams, reading unofficial Facebook group posts, etc, you'll realize that there's the letter of the rules and then there's the spirit of the rules.

The great thing about this series is that no one is tearing down engines to do BS inspections. No one is making you put security seals on things after they've been checked to ensure there's no post-inspection shenanigans. The spirit of the rules is: don't come with a real race car. Bring whatever version of low-buck, shade-tree built, not gonna break your bank car is fun for you, and the BS judges will keep everyone pretty honest and keep the 3 classes generally competitive. It's just for fun, so keep it that way and you're good.

As a new team you'll get a decent going over to make sure you're not trying to slip in a real race car. But in general unless you're at the pointy end of any given class, or you've brought something entirely too good to even be put in class A, you're gonna be fine.

Re: Service items and replacement fluids

chaase wrote:

By the letter of the rules, they are included...

While I have learned the hard way that arguing with a Lemons Justice
is not going to get you anywhere you might want to be, I would point out
that the rules (quickly reviewed prior to this really, possibly, damning post) DO NOT
list fluids individually, including FUEL, in the value of the car. So, by the letter of the rules,
a tank of fuel that goes into the car prior to BS Inspection should count toward
Rule 4.1 Total Investment in Vehicle Can Not Exceed $500: Except for items described in Rules 4.2 and 4.3, the total spent to purchase and prepare any car may not exceed $500.

Fluids are consumables. While consumables are not mentioned in the rule set specifically, it is generally
understood that consumables get consumed during a race, and are part of the cost of racing, not preparation.
(At least I hope that it is generally understood that way. Otherwise, those bottles of Costco Premium Unleaded
are gonna get me a whole lotta Penalty Laps.)

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

9 (edited by chaase 2022-06-22 06:24 PM)

Re: Service items and replacement fluids

DelinquentRacer wrote:
chaase wrote:

By the letter of the rules, they are included...

While I have learned the hard way that arguing with a Lemons Justice
is not going to get you anywhere you might want to be, I would point out
that the rules (quickly reviewed prior to this really, possibly, damning post) DO NOT
list fluids individually, including FUEL, in the value of the car. So, by the letter of the rules,
a tank of fuel that goes into the car prior to BS Inspection should count toward
Rule 4.1 Total Investment in Vehicle Can Not Exceed $500: Except for items described in Rules 4.2 and 4.3, the total spent to purchase and prepare any car may not exceed $500.

Fluids are consumables. While consumables are not mentioned in the rule set specifically, it is generally
understood that consumables get consumed during a race, and are part of the cost of racing, not preparation.
(At least I hope that it is generally understood that way. Otherwise, those bottles of Costco Premium Unleaded
are gonna get me a whole lotta Penalty Laps.)

I personally don't consider ATF, gear oil, air filters and PS fluid consumables. They are for the preparation of the vehicle and are not consumed during a race like fuel, wiper fluid, or oil in a Lemons car 8-). Those are maintenance/wear items like plugs, wires, distributor caps, and/or ignition modules.

Again, I wouldn't hold it against anyone if you came into my lane for BS inspection. I've never, ever even asked about it but a CAI may be an indicator of other potentially cheat bits. I mean, it's just an "air filter". When its unclear and its not safety related, the judge standing in front of your car gets to make the call.

I've been racing in Lemons since '09. built at least 6 cars and doing adhoc judging for the past few years. I've been given the third degree on some builds and left completely alone on others.  I  am just giving my opinion on the matter.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

10 (edited by Troy 2022-07-03 02:40 PM)

Re: Service items and replacement fluids

chaase wrote:

I personally don't consider ATF, gear oil, air filters and PS fluid consumables. They are for the preparation of the vehicle and are not consumed during a race like fuel, wiper fluid, or oil in a Lemons car 8-). Those are maintenance/wear items like plugs, wires, distributor caps, and/or ignition modules.

Our cars don't follow the rules or agree with this statement.

We took 3 cars to NOLA which all consumed their motors.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Service items and replacement fluids

none of that would count towards the $500. Also keep in mind that any items you sell off the car reduces the $500. Our 1st car, an L69 84 Trans Am (RIP) we bought for $800 but I sold $1600 in parts. So the car had a value of $0.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"