Topic: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

Passing through tech we got a "provisional pass" this last weekend but were warned that the ruling on accusumps would likely be changing really soon to require complete shielding around the unit if its located inside the cabin.

We passed tech at pittrace without a mention of it so it was a surprise notation for us.

We'll resolve this for the next race, but I'm curious, what happened recently that caused this rule? We were guessing someone's DIY unit blew up and hosed down a driver with hot oil, but it seems to have been tied (timing wise) to something that happened at NJMP that may not be in the wrap-up video.

NOTE: I do understand and agree with the ruling, hot fluids (or any fluids really) flowing around the cabin can be dangerous.

So yeah, open that can o' worms and let's make our cars safe(er)!

1989 Merkur XR4Ti: Project Merkur Space Program - Wins: Class C - Colonel and the Sinkhole 2023 | "Heroic Fix" The Pitt Maneuver 2023 | "Halloween Meets Gasoline" The Pitt Maneuver 2022
1980 Dodge Challenger: Most Extreme eLemonAtion Challenger (Rust Belt Ramble 2021 Dishonorable Mention)

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

I wasn't aware of any ruling that would exempt these from Rule 3.6.6 which already requires them to be completely encased:

Fuel, Oil, and Coolant in the Cockpit. Any fuel, oil, or coolant reservoirs or lines that are exposed to or pass through the driving compartment must be encased by heavy-duty conduit, durable steel or aluminum pipe, or strong metal plate. OE metal lines in good condition in their original location are exempt from this rule, but encasement is still recommended.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

3.6.6     Fuel, Oil, and Coolant in the Cockpit. Any fuel, oil, or coolant reservoirs or lines that are exposed to or pass through the driving compartment must be encased by heavy-duty conduit, durable steel or aluminum pipe, or strong metal plate. OE metal lines in good condition in their original location are exempt from this rule, but encasement is still recommended.

That has been the rule for a long time, I guess it was not consistently enforced for Accusumps.  I have seen another team put a metal box with window around theirs so they could see the gauge.

Team whatever_racecar #745 Volvo wagon

4 (edited by chaase 2022-06-27 02:41 PM)

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

rb92673 wrote:

3.6.6     Fuel, Oil, and Coolant in the Cockpit. Any fuel, oil, or coolant reservoirs or lines that are exposed to or pass through the driving compartment must be encased by heavy-duty conduit, durable steel or aluminum pipe, or strong metal plate. OE metal lines in good condition in their original location are exempt from this rule, but encasement is still recommended.

That has been the rule for a long time, I guess it was not consistently enforced for Accusumps.  I have seen another team put a metal box with window around theirs so they could see the gauge.

/agree

In our installation, the braided lines go through the firewall into the accu-sump. All of that is encased in a metal box. No ruling change needed, thats the way it’s always been.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

heavy-duty conduit, durable steel or aluminum pipe, or strong metal plate

One could argue that accusumps themselves are made of heavy-duty/durable steel or aluminum pipe, which understandably causes confusion.

Ours is plumbed with iron pipe and fittings on the inside of the cabin. the flex line runs under along the frame rail to an oil filter adaptor plate. To be clear, we bought this car used from another team that ran it on the west coast at quite a few events, so it was passing tech for years before we even got it. This was only our second race with it.

We will be doing a similar boxing around it to ensure there's no question on legality later. I wanted to bring it up now so that other teams can do the same consideration to ensure there's no question on safety.

1989 Merkur XR4Ti: Project Merkur Space Program - Wins: Class C - Colonel and the Sinkhole 2023 | "Heroic Fix" The Pitt Maneuver 2023 | "Halloween Meets Gasoline" The Pitt Maneuver 2022
1980 Dodge Challenger: Most Extreme eLemonAtion Challenger (Rust Belt Ramble 2021 Dishonorable Mention)

6 (edited by chaase 2022-06-27 05:20 PM)

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

KeiCarMike wrote:

heavy-duty conduit, durable steel or aluminum pipe, or strong metal plate

One could argue that accusumps themselves are made of heavy-duty/durable steel or aluminum pipe, which understandably causes confusion.

Ours is plumbed with iron pipe and fittings on the inside of the cabin. the flex line runs under along the frame rail to an oil filter adaptor plate. To be clear, we bought this car used from another team that ran it on the west coast at quite a few events, so it was passing tech for years before we even got it. This was only our second race with it.

We will be doing a similar boxing around it to ensure there's no question on legality later. I wanted to bring it up now so that other teams can do the same consideration to ensure there's no question on safety.

The issue is if a seal fails on the accusump, then hot oil could be sprayed all over the interior. For example, many have a pressure gauge screwed it. What happens if that blows off?  If the accusump is in the box, it can't hurt anyone. It probably should've failed the entire time. Then again, i've had the car "fail tech" for things that passed a dozen times.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

Awesome, our team is definitely a group of "solve the problem so there's not even a question", so we live and learn.

Shielding will be taken care of by our next race.

1989 Merkur XR4Ti: Project Merkur Space Program - Wins: Class C - Colonel and the Sinkhole 2023 | "Heroic Fix" The Pitt Maneuver 2023 | "Halloween Meets Gasoline" The Pitt Maneuver 2022
1980 Dodge Challenger: Most Extreme eLemonAtion Challenger (Rust Belt Ramble 2021 Dishonorable Mention)

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

Stupid question, why would you want/need it to be inside the cabin?

BSOD Racing, 1987 Fiat X1/9

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

rozap_ wrote:

Stupid question, why would you want/need it to be inside the cabin?

Yeah, it really does seem like it should be a high priority to find room elsewhere for the pressurized container of flammable liquid. Still, as long as it is properly encased, I suppose...

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally

10 (edited by chaase 2022-06-28 05:15 AM)

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

rozap_ wrote:

Stupid question, why would you want/need it to be inside the cabin?

There is limited space in many cars for it. We didn't really want ours inside but there isn't a lot of options. Engine compartment is too cramped and it can't be well protected under the car.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

Yeah, space is the issue.

In addition to boxing it in, we've decided to also add a nozzle from the fire system inside the box as well pointed at the weakest fitting (the pressure gauge side)

1989 Merkur XR4Ti: Project Merkur Space Program - Wins: Class C - Colonel and the Sinkhole 2023 | "Heroic Fix" The Pitt Maneuver 2023 | "Halloween Meets Gasoline" The Pitt Maneuver 2022
1980 Dodge Challenger: Most Extreme eLemonAtion Challenger (Rust Belt Ramble 2021 Dishonorable Mention)

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

We mounted ours in the engine compartment, and built a little door in the hood so the lever could be actuated without opening the entire hood. 

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Tunachuckers: 15 Years of Effluency
'08 - '10: 1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
'10 - '18: 1975 Ford LTD Landau --> 2018 - current: Converted into 1950 "Plymford"
'22 - current: 1967 Volvo 122, "Charlie ]["

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

My Probe has accusump/Morroso. at first i was concerned with starting the car with it open. But now I dont care. I did set the pressure to 15-25psi, so to make sure the engine starts up first normally and than fills up the unit. I have a 3qt unit, so loss of volume due to higher pressure is not a concern. So could do a removable pan/shield that is bolted in not using self tappers. In case you need a service.

https://www.facebook.com/greatglobsofoil/
This car....Is said to have a will of it's Own. Twisting its own body in rage...It accelerates on.
1978 Opel/Buick Isuzu(C>B>C>B) , Sold 1996 Nissan Maxima OnlyFans (B) , Sold 1996 Ford Probe GT(B),

14

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

Soooooooo,

The new rules of which you speak are (I believe) related to our tech inspection at NJMP.

We had an inspector that I hadn't seen before. Not sure if he was new, or just hadn't done any east coast races before. He looked in the car and asked if this was our first Lemons race, as he believed that our accusump setup was in violation of the rules. We have an accusump in the rear seat area, and braided stainless steel lines (1,000psi working pressure) that run to a valve next to the gear shift lever, and then on through the firewall to the external oil cooler and then to the engine itself. All the fittings are Aluminum AN type. Robust stuff.

The inspector seemed surprised when we told him that our car (a former SCCA ITB car) had participated in 25+ Lemons races over 10 years and had been inspected by Dale, Steve McDaniel, Jay, and John Pagel many times without any comments. The inspector called over Jay and asked him to look at our accusump setup to which Jay quickly replied "Totally Unacceptable!". We then had a very polite conversation regarding our interpretation of the rules, and Jay thanked us for pointing out a 'grey area' in the rule book and said that some 'clarifications' would be added in the section regarding hot fluids in the driver's compartment. They allowed us to race and we gave them our word that we would modify the setup for the next race which for us will be at Thompson - we are working on the retrofit now. We also "get it", if there was a hard crash and, for example, the accusump pressure gauge got sheared off, there could be a fire hose of hot oil being sprayed around the cockpit. Not desirable.

Oh, while we did NOT have any sort of incident related to the accusump or the oil lines in the cockpit, we DID have an incident related to oil lines under the hood. We got "L boned" in Turn 1 that caused (we think) an oil hose to be bent in half that sprayed a small amount of oil on the exhaust manifold. All the oil lines in our car are 25+ years old, so we plan to use all new stuff in our retrofit. You can see from the video that a small fire ensured, which put itself out pretty quickly. Our driver had his hand on the fire bottle release handle, but didn't pull it when he saw that the fire was out quickly. We were able to fix the damage and get back on the track for Sunday. There must have been some oil or other slippery stuff on the track, if you look closely at the video you can see that the two cars in front of us got loose as well, with one of them going at least 2-off. This resulted in the Red Flag on Saturday. Our Audi has a glass jaw - doesn't take much to hurt it up front.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvygLq7nJZw

We Audi Be Faster
'85 Audi Coupe G(in &) T(onic)

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

RSB wrote:

Soooooooo,

The new rules of which you speak are (I believe) related to our tech inspection at NJMP.

We had an inspector that I hadn't seen before. Not sure if he was new, or just hadn't done any east coast races before. He looked in the car and asked if this was our first Lemons race, as he believed that our accusump setup was in violation of the rules. We have an accusump in the rear seat area, and braided stainless steel lines (1,000psi working pressure) that run to a valve next to the gear shift lever, and then on through the firewall to the external oil cooler and then to the engine itself. All the fittings are Aluminum AN type. Robust stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvygLq7nJZw

I can't remember who the second inspector was at NJMP. There were a couple of newish judges doing BS at NJMP but I didn't think t hey were doing tech. I did tech at CMP for the first time this year but Dale was double checking my work.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

16 (edited by Bricoop 2022-07-14 03:21 PM)

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

RSB wrote:

Oh, while we did NOT have any sort of incident related to the accusump or the oil lines in the cockpit, we DID have an incident related to oil lines under the hood. We got "L boned" in Turn 1 that caused (we think) an oil hose to be bent in half that sprayed a small amount of oil on the exhaust manifold. All the oil lines in our car are 25+ years old, so we plan to use all new stuff in our retrofit. You can see from the video that a small fire ensured, which put itself out pretty quickly. Our driver had his hand on the fire bottle release handle, but didn't pull it when he saw that the fire was out quickly. We were able to fix the damage and get back on the track for Sunday. There must have been some oil or other slippery stuff on the track, if you look closely at the video you can see that the two cars in front of us got loose as well, with one of them going at least 2-off. This resulted in the Red Flag on Saturday. Our Audi has a glass jaw - doesn't take much to hurt it up front.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvygLq7nJZw

I'm glad you brought this up as this is a learning opportunity.  My understanding is you should only pull the handle on the way out of the car, unless you are trapped.  This is what I recall from my first rookie meeting in 2019 and could be confused.

One of my VERY experienced drivers mentioned if there is a dangerous fire, his only priority is to get out of the car.  If he remembers to pull the handle on the way out, it's a bonus.

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

If you are on fire or the fire is in the cockpit, pull the handle. That's one of the reasons that you have nozzles pointed at the driver. It's designed to give the driver more safe time to egress, not save your really nice kirkey seat...

I'd rather be covered in powder trying to get out not on fire, then trying to get out while on fire and then trying to extinguish it.

If I saw fire, my order of thought would be: kill switch (stop the flow of fuel), fire pull (if fire is inside the car or not stopping), egress (GTFO). Of course if you just rolled, or have some other situation, it's all going to happen so fast that you won't have time to think...

1989 Merkur XR4Ti: Project Merkur Space Program - Wins: Class C - Colonel and the Sinkhole 2023 | "Heroic Fix" The Pitt Maneuver 2023 | "Halloween Meets Gasoline" The Pitt Maneuver 2022
1980 Dodge Challenger: Most Extreme eLemonAtion Challenger (Rust Belt Ramble 2021 Dishonorable Mention)

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

kakarot1232001 wrote:

My Probe has accusump/Morroso. at first i was concerned with starting the car with it open. But now I dont care. I did set the pressure to 15-25psi, so to make sure the engine starts up first normally and than fills up the unit. I have a 3qt unit, so loss of volume due to higher pressure is not a concern. So could do a removable pan/shield that is bolted in not using self tappers. In case you need a service.


I agree turning the valve on and off an accusump is a pain. I did however learn a painful lesson for leaving the valve open. Depending on the location of the unit -  if the valve is left open when the engine is shut off then the 3 quarts of extra oil will run into the pan. And if you ( I mean Me) don’t pay attention -  then what might ( did) appear to be the correct level of oil when checked is really 3 quarts low. (scratch one 400 big block)

I also agree to definitely mount them “outside” . I can’t put wiper washers together that don’t leak let alone hot / slippery / burney stuff

Cordoba

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

Jimmy wrote:
kakarot1232001 wrote:

My Probe has accusump/Morroso. at first i was concerned with starting the car with it open. But now I dont care. I did set the pressure to 15-25psi, so to make sure the engine starts up first normally and than fills up the unit. I have a 3qt unit, so loss of volume due to higher pressure is not a concern. So could do a removable pan/shield that is bolted in not using self tappers. In case you need a service.


I agree turning the valve on and off an accusump is a pain. I did however learn a painful lesson for leaving the valve open. Depending on the location of the unit -  if the valve is left open when the engine is shut off then the 3 quarts of extra oil will run into the pan. And if you ( I mean Me) don’t pay attention -  then what might ( did) appear to be the correct level of oil when checked is really 3 quarts low. (scratch one 400 big block)

I also agree to definitely mount them “outside” . I can’t put wiper washers together that don’t leak let alone hot / slippery / burney stuff

Its such a paint to set the proper level of oil, I marked my dipstick with new engine off accucsump open level. but it still varies by a lot as you run it. When cold engine is putting out close to 75psi of pressure, when hot its at 55, thats almost a qt of difference between cold and hot with the accusump.Feel like need to set a volume stop inside the accusump, so it be max of 2qt weather it be 55 or 75psi on a 3qt system, this way still have the full pressure just not volume variance. Also could probably just use a smaller unit, but nah

https://www.facebook.com/greatglobsofoil/
This car....Is said to have a will of it's Own. Twisting its own body in rage...It accelerates on.
1978 Opel/Buick Isuzu(C>B>C>B) , Sold 1996 Nissan Maxima OnlyFans (B) , Sold 1996 Ford Probe GT(B),

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

KeiCarMike wrote:

If you are on fire or the fire is in the cockpit, pull the handle. That's one of the reasons that you have nozzles pointed at the driver. It's designed to give the driver more safe time to egress, not save your really nice kirkey seat...

I'd rather be covered in powder trying to get out not on fire, then trying to get out while on fire and then trying to extinguish it.

If I saw fire, my order of thought would be: kill switch (stop the flow of fuel), fire pull (if fire is inside the car or not stopping), egress (GTFO). Of course if you just rolled, or have some other situation, it's all going to happen so fast that you won't have time to think...

I'm not sure I agree with this.  I'll make a new thread to not conflate this with the Accusump.

Re: Ok let's bring it up: Accusumps

Regarding the accusump, final solution for us was to take advantage of having to replace our engine and relocating the accusump to the engine bay. Mostly a painless process for us as we found a place where it sits really well, and just had to make a single cut to shorten the supply tube.

Only functionality we lost was the ability for the driver to turn the valve on/off for storing/dispensing a charge for cold starts, but since we can easily reach in under the hood to do so.

So now all hot fluids are under the engine bay, hopefully to the delight of Jay.

1989 Merkur XR4Ti: Project Merkur Space Program - Wins: Class C - Colonel and the Sinkhole 2023 | "Heroic Fix" The Pitt Maneuver 2023 | "Halloween Meets Gasoline" The Pitt Maneuver 2022
1980 Dodge Challenger: Most Extreme eLemonAtion Challenger (Rust Belt Ramble 2021 Dishonorable Mention)