Topic: For the Collective Wisdom of the Forum

Preface: I know that TEO (John Pagel) is the source for a definitive answer.

So, I'm prepping my first (my third Lemons build) body-on-frame car . It's all steel, so no issues with fiberglass.

My question for those of you that have caged an all-steel body-on-frame
Did you mount the cage to the body? OR
Did you penetrate the floor to the frame, or outriggers on the frame, for mounting the cage?
What was the reasoning behind your choice?

Thank you in advance for your constructive input.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

2 (edited by chaase 2022-10-03 03:07 PM)

Re: For the Collective Wisdom of the Forum

I thought that for body on frame cars, the cage has to attach to the frame itself. I would verify it though. I know NHRA requires it and I thought Lemons did as well but I can't find it in the rules

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
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Re: For the Collective Wisdom of the Forum

Was also my understanding that the cage has to go to the frame. I suspect that attaching to the body in addition is ok, but frame is your actual structure.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: For the Collective Wisdom of the Forum

What OEM safety equipment is attached only to the body (of that body-on-frame vehicle)?

This would be as compared to 'attached to the body and the frame', or just the frame itself?

Are you going with the larger diameter, thicker sidewall tubing?

Have you modified, or will you modify, any part of the OE crush structure (3.4.2)?

The driver protection structure should protect the driver on all sides. The frame is structural. The cage is structural. The tubing has a defined spec.

Where's the weakest point in the system? I say 'any point of the body between the spreader plate and the frame' - unless reinforced.

The frame and cage are separate unless tied together so that they work together.

Body-on-frame and unibody have different names for a reason.

I sure wouldn't want to be in a multiple rotation rollover, but most definitely not in a body-on-frame vehicle with the cage only attached to the body.

That's just my opinion.

Re: For the Collective Wisdom of the Forum

Playing Devil's advocate, were I to only cage the body, it would turn the
body into a Safety Cell type structure. In a rollover, should the body separate
from the frame, it seems as though the cage keeps the body structure from collapsing
thus protecting the driver, regardless of what the frame does.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

Re: For the Collective Wisdom of the Forum

Delinquentracer,

I don’t know the Lemons Rules, but be very carful how you mount the seat.   Call John Pagel!

People have died bolting seats to floor pans that have come unattached from the roll cage in GT racing. Big hit: Floor Pan dropped with seat and driver… belts are attached to the cage… car still moving.  Bad result.  Mosport turn one… Trans-am race back around 2000.  You’re not running a tube frame but the problem could still be there if your not careful.

I’d mount some sort of box frame from the door bars to mount the seat on above the floor.  Submarine belts & lap belts can be integrated into the box frame the seat sits on.

Re: For the Collective Wisdom of the Forum

Ben 595 wrote:

DelinquentRacer, People have died bolting seats to floor pans that have come unattached from the roll cage in GT racing.

Thanks for the input.
I hadn't come up with a design, yet,
but that's an important consideration.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

Re: For the Collective Wisdom of the Forum

I think Pagel will request that the body not become a detachable "cell" during an accident. You lose some of the benefits of crumple zones slowing the impact when the body just pops off and bounces around. (broad exaggerations).

Best to assume that the cage will need to tie into the frame. Most commonly this is done with outriggers off the frame rails to match up with the cage landing zones.

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

9 (edited by OnkelUdo 2022-10-04 03:19 PM)

Re: For the Collective Wisdom of the Forum

We mounted to the frame on the 1947 Plymouth. Most cars will require outriggers in 2-6 locations. Somewhere on here there will be diagrams of approved outriggers.  You also will likely still have to spreader-plate the items that conveniently land on frame as most are not 1/8" or greater.

We did not have to ask Pagel as it was already "common knowledge" at the time (we also saw an Aerostar at Barber fail tech with a cage to the body).  I helped a team that showed up to Barber with and S10 that landed the rear back stays on the bed get through tech.

Re: For the Collective Wisdom of the Forum

I have built two cages in a body on frame car.  If the spreader plates land on body mount locations that was acceptable.  If not we build outriggers out of 2x3 or 2x4 box steel to weld to the frame.  Long direction is vertical.

The first one was field tested in a double roll over at high plains in 2021 and held extremely well

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1999 Chevy Blazer