The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Newcomers → How to team?
Looking for advice on divvying costs between locals and some arrive and drive.
I have covered the initial costs and am about $1k in. My cost estimate is $6800.
I have a team of 7. 4 local and 3 non-locals interested in driving.
Any advice on how to divvy up the costs going forward? What do you guys charge for arrive and drive? Hoping it will do double duty as a hpde car for the local group as well and enter in future races.
Thanks
This varies according to the team and sometimes which race and which teammates. There are any number of variables.
Sole owner? You are probably eating most of the cost of car prep. You can amortize this over more than one race.
New car? There's some risk you might not pass tech. There's a dollar factor there for A&D, less so for involved locals.
Are you concerned about people crashing your car? There are driver contracts and other examples here on the forum.
Is sharing build costs more important than sharing operating costs? There are numerous ways to deal with this.
A&D costs seem more or less reasonable from both sides compared to consumable usage. Big car that eats brakes and gas? I'd expect it to cost a bit more. Be prepared to be transparent here. Long tows probably cost more, too. What's included with an A&D? Car only? Team experience? Fully catered with booze and camping?
7 is a lot of drivers for a normal weekend. Figure on 2 hours of track time per driver (not counting time off track for "things"). How much time/experience has each teammate contributed to the build? "I can weld in the cage that passes tech and rebuild the engine" probably should get a discount compared to "I can fetch water at the track." It can still work, but factor that into cost-sharing calculations.
I'm not trying to give specific recommendations here, just general considerations. Solo owners eat a lot of the cost, but don't have to answer to anybody about car choices. Teams with more complex ownership situations have more convincing and less autonomy. Pick your poison.
About point 3, is there race insurance to protect against total loss?
This varies according to the team and sometimes which race and which teammates. There are any number of variables.
Sole owner? You are probably eating most of the cost of car prep. You can amortize this over more than one race.
New car? There's some risk you might not pass tech. There's a dollar factor there for A&D, less so for involved locals.
Are you concerned about people crashing your car? There are driver contracts and other examples here on the forum.
Is sharing build costs more important than sharing operating costs? There are numerous ways to deal with this.
A&D costs seem more or less reasonable from both sides compared to consumable usage. Big car that eats brakes and gas? I'd expect it to cost a bit more. Be prepared to be transparent here. Long tows probably cost more, too. What's included with an A&D? Car only? Team experience? Fully catered with booze and camping?
7 is a lot of drivers for a normal weekend. Figure on 2 hours of track time per driver (not counting time off track for "things"). How much time/experience has each teammate contributed to the build? "I can weld in the cage that passes tech and rebuild the engine" probably should get a discount compared to "I can fetch water at the track." It can still work, but factor that into cost-sharing calculations.
I'm not trying to give specific recommendations here, just general considerations. Solo owners eat a lot of the cost, but don't have to answer to anybody about car choices. Teams with more complex ownership situations have more convincing and less autonomy. Pick your poison.
Solid advice. So far the team is cohesive about car and direction. But I think I'll ask everyone local to pony up a cash stake. I think I'll eat the cost for consumables and ask for cash to cover a portion of tire/pads/fluids from everyone each race. I'm going to take A&D off the table unless I make it out to shadow a lemon's race before the one we're aiming for and can confidently pass tech and guarantee a&d.
I was also thinking about track incidents as well. I'll check out the driver contracts. The hawk racing pads I bought cost more than the car at this point, but I'll have to think about that.
Thank you
About point 3, is there race insurance to protect against total loss?
Don't crash.
I have never heard of such thing as on-track racing insurance.
I'm pretty sure you can get coverage for everywhere else, but not while racing. I think there are even companies that will cover HPDEs under the guise of "educational" event.
From the rules (emphasis mine):
1.6 Your Car Might Get Wrecked, But the Facility Shouldn’t: Just because we don’t crush cars anymore, that doesn’t mean a racing incident can’t. Never put a car on the track if you aren’t prepared for that possibility. Conversely, we’re guests of the track and expect you to act accordingly. Don’t break their stuff, because a) it makes us look bad, b) it’s a douche move, and c) you can be on the hook for the fix.
Lockton Motorsports started sending me emails when I browsed without hiding (my mistake).
They advertise they cover hpde events as well as to and from those events. Noticeably absent in their ad is road racing like Lemons.
I responded with an information sheet about a hypothetical Lemons car I would build. Their rate was SO FAR BEYOND what would be worth to purchase for the car and any go fast parts, they're now going into my SPAM folder.
With the exception of the cage, I believe I could source and build *another* Lemons car for the price of one premium for one weekend.
But:
I think if you build a car that in Lemons would reasonably get a 15,000 B.S. penalty lap rating, and it gets stolen out of the hotel parking lot if you do an overnight tow to the track, it *MIGHT* be worth it.
Thanks for the knowledge. That’s what I figured, but I wanted to check.
The market for A&D's is definitely a buyer's market. I've yet to have a pure A&D, and avoid it at all costs. If you charge more to the A&D's (which is very fair IMO), there will be plenty of other teams who could offer a seat for less $ and it wouldn't make sense for those drivers to go with you. I have a list of names categorized by crew, primary drivers, and bench drivers. Those who are there, wrench, and help get the car ready always get first priority for seats. Those who aren't, usually never hear from me, but every now and then a primary driver gets sick and it's always good to have someone to toss in there if needed. Everyone pays the same amount... wrenching buys you comradery, free beer, free lunch, and a guaranteed seat. I always split up costs and take money months before a race.
Nobunaga: I believe hagerty offers insurance for track cars.. not sure about w2w race cars.
I haven't had a true A&D since pre-pandemic days, but my pricing reflected the reliability of the car and my willingness (or lack thereof) to track raceday expenses. Things were also cheaper then. Also, the Porsche is a lego car made of VW parts and I don't really have a lot of emotional attachment to it.
My preference is: split the entry cost even, then split consumables with maybe a little on top depending on the car. Then, depending on the experience I provided, I might waive the consumables (showed up with a car that was broken and never really ran). But I own my cars outright and can do whatever I want to them, and I wear big boy pants. It might be fair to consider tagging on the fire suppression and the belts as consumables amortized over the life of the usage due to the limited lifespan. If someone uses them they should cover the cost to renew, but you are on your own to collect.
Likewise, in the event of a catastrophic crash that actually totals the car, it seems fair to require the driver at the time to come up with a replacement or cover the cost of replacing, etc.
Getting your team to pony up cash for the build will likely keep them involved due to the fallacy of sunk costs, but think of the end state. When you sell the car or a teammate wants out, what's an equitable recourse for both parties? What if the owner in name wants to crush it, but the other teammates want to continue with it?
I haven't had a true A&D since pre-pandemic days, but my pricing reflected the reliability of the car and my willingness (or lack thereof) to track raceday expenses. Things were also cheaper then. Also, the Porsche is a lego car made of VW parts and I don't really have a lot of emotional attachment to it.
My preference is: split the entry cost even, then split consumables with maybe a little on top depending on the car. Then, depending on the experience I provided, I might waive the consumables (showed up with a car that was broken and never really ran). But I own my cars outright and can do whatever I want to them, and I wear big boy pants. It might be fair to consider tagging on the fire suppression and the belts as consumables amortized over the life of the usage due to the limited lifespan. If someone uses them they should cover the cost to renew, but you are on your own to collect.
Likewise, in the event of a catastrophic crash that actually totals the car, it seems fair to require the driver at the time to come up with a replacement or cover the cost of replacing, etc.
Getting your team to pony up cash for the build will likely keep them involved due to the fallacy of sunk costs, but think of the end state. When you sell the car or a teammate wants out, what's an equitable recourse for both parties? What if the owner in name wants to crush it, but the other teammates want to continue with it?
This is exactly what I do with my team, which at this point covers myself and 8 different potential drivers with varying levels of experience and ability, about half have been A&D, and half have been local. It's my car, I've paid for everything, so obviously if something happens to it, I lose that money. Luckily, I drive a Ford Focus which is very much a LEGO car, like DirtyDuc's car.
For each race, I try to find a mix of people who can drive and wrench, just in case something happens. I take the full cost of the race and split it amongst all the drivers, and usually charge a little extra ($50/person) for wear and tear items. It sounds like a lot, but considering that in two races we've gone through 2 CV axles, a control arm, and a wheel, and basically lost a set of tires due to the damage to the wheel, I think I've actually lost money - but I do get to do other stuff with the car. Because fuel consumption can vary from race to race, I typically pay all the fuel upfront and then split it at the end.
The people that are local that have helped me work on the car have done it because they enjoy the experience of wrenching, not necessarily for a discount, but I do give them priority when forming a team for a race. I also let everyone know before they pay that part of the risk is that something may happen to total the car in turn 1, but I am also confident that the car is more-or-less driveable at the start of the race, so there's that.
I have found that as long as you try to be fair and be extremely transparent with what everyone is paying and why, it will go a long way to foster understanding and provide clarity. I have a Google Sheets spreadsheet I share with everyone that helps everyone see what the costs are. So far, no one has really complained about this set up.
The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Newcomers → How to team?