• Registered: 2023-02-06
  • Posts: 3

Topic: Real Spending Limit

Hello - I'm considering joining a race event this year and I am confused by the spending limit of $500, excluding safety equipment.

Most of the vehicles posted for sale on this site for use in a race are multiple thousands of dollars.  Sellers claim the car is $500 and the safety equipment (e.g., cages), spare parts, etc; make up the difference.

However, rule 4.1.1 says:

Lame-Ass Rationalizations: ... “it would have been worth $500 if it didn’t already have a cage” doesn’t count. Five hundred dollars means five hundred frickin’ dollars!

I don't want to waste time, money, and effort preparing for the race only to be told that I spent too much and do not qualify to race.  I also don't want to show up with a total POS because I stuck to the limit and everyone else has sweet cars to race.

Further, the $500 limit may have worked 10 years ago, but finding a $500 car that moves under its own power today is a difficult task.  I think the rules should be clarified and/or limits increased.

  • Registered: 2020-07-15
  • Posts: 22

Re: Real Spending Limit

Cages really do cost four figures. A seat that isn't an uncomfortable piece of shit is going to be at least $500. Fire system is another $500 easily, more if you go with the (in my personal experience) superior perfluorinated agents. Belts are hundreds. Brakes a couple hundred at least. Tires, ditto. Even if you do manage to get a car for notionally $500 -- and that's certainly doable -- you're still going to be into it for at least mid-four-figures by the time it's ready for the track. Hence the "used Lemons car" prices you're seeing.

But don't worry about it! If you've ever priced out a "real" race car, Lemons still is dirt cheap. I mean, a competitive Spec Miata is what, $30k-$50k these days, maybe more?

Besides, the real expense is the operating cost. Think about this: you can go endurance racing, even a true-24-hour race, for a weekend budget in the low-mid four figures. That's incredible! Know what it costs to run a GTD car at Daytona for the Rolex 24? Something like $500k to a million, depending on who you ask and how honest they're being. The fact that we can do it two orders of magnitude cheaper, having just as much fun, is incredible.

Hell, my "real" race car costs $87 *per 2.5 mile lap* to operate. That's completely insane. It's way faster than my Lemons car, but my Lemons car is just as much fun.

Don't worry too much about the dollar minutiae. Get a car and get racing.

Turbo-Encabulators -- 1999 Mazda Miata -- Winner overall, BFE GP '22, runner-up a bunch of times

3 Reply by Teuobk (edited by Teuobk 2023-02-07 10:43 PM)

  • Registered: 2020-07-15
  • Posts: 22

Re: Real Spending Limit

But to answer your question more directly: if you buy a car, and it "would have been" a more-or-less $500 car without the $4000 in bare-minimum-these-days safety equipment, nobody is going to give you shit.

If you buy a Miata, people are going to give you shit even if you somehow managed to steal it for a legitimate $500 all-in.

If you show up in a 997 Porsche (or, god help you, a 993 Porsche), you could have a bill of sale for $500 notarized by God and you'd still get a million penalty laps.

Don't overthink it. Is it a $500 car by the spirit of the law, never mind the facts? It's fine.

Turbo-Encabulators -- 1999 Mazda Miata -- Winner overall, BFE GP '22, runner-up a bunch of times
  • Registered: 2011-06-17
  • Posts: 109

Re: Real Spending Limit

grandma wrote:

I don't want to waste time, money, and effort preparing for the race only to be told that I spent too much and do not qualify to race.  I also don't want to show up with a total POS because I stuck to the limit and everyone else has sweet cars to race.

There is basically no chance that you are going to be turned away just because you've gone over the spending limit. If they think you've excessively gone over the limit, you might get a lot of penalty laps and/or put into a higher class, but I would not worry about that.

Also, per the rules, there are many exceptions, safety equipment, driver information systems (gauges and comms, etc.) and more. Also, you can sell parts off your car to reduce your price.

You should watch the recap videos to see what cars people run and how they are modified.

As for ready made cars for sale, take a look at this: https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=41312

$5,000 for a prepped race winning car. The roll cage and other safety equipment cost way more than $5,000, the judges are not going to penalize you for going over the limit with this car.

Take a look at this list of the cars that the judges want to see: https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=40957 Get one of those cars, build it, race it, have fun!

What car you thinking of building?

EPA Racing - #40 Supercharged Dodge Caliber
  • From: Elverson, PA
  • Registered: 2017-08-15
  • Posts: 1,124

Re: Real Spending Limit

I spent a year and a half lurking here before registering to even ask a question, and i still had questions. But most of my early questions had already been answered; it's just a suggestion.

There's a TON of information here from so many brilliantly creative, technically sophisticated builders and racers that my mind is blown (I'm not in that group, but I'm planning a build now).

And the themes are hilarious.

But I can summarize:

The car is one thing. Money over the $500 limit - as judged by the B.S. judge, is 1 penalty lap per $10; so you'll still* be able to race, as long as:
1. the car fulfills the minimum requirements and
2. is safe and
3. the entry fee is paid (I'm not aware of a _recent_ race being _over_subscribed).
* - (most likely)

Safety equipment - spend as much as you want to. I'm thinking: the more, the better.

If you are going to build your own car, mount the seat before planning the cage. Plinth boxes. Contact Pagel with questions early, if they're not answered here.

Theme.

The I.O.E. is the Grand Prize of Lemons.

Residual Value after the race.

Location in your profile will help you find local help, and them, you.

I bought 4, running, driving (though needing repairs) cars under $500 in the last 3 years. Fortunately, most - if not all - of the repairs needed are safety items.

If any of my above isn't clear, the answers can be found here in the forum.

So tell us where you are, and tell us what you're looking at, and why, and you'll get helpful feedback - I promise.

  • VKZ24
  • VKZ24
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  • From: Wilson, NC
  • Registered: 2009-05-20
  • Posts: 1,839

Re: Real Spending Limit

Lemons can be considered cheapER racing, but not CHEAP.  There is a reason "$500 car" is usually in air quotes as there is no such thing, or at least no such thing that should be on a race track.

Sounds like you need to attend a race and see what Lemons is all about in person and decide on how/if you'd like to move forward.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

VKZ24's Website

  • From: Chicago-ish
  • Registered: 2010-04-19
  • Posts: 3,498

Re: Real Spending Limit

The "real" spending limit is a sliding scale.

- Going to bring a fully race-prepared 350Z? You're gonna have a bad time.

- Going to bring almost anything off this list? The BS Judges are unlikely to care too deeply about "real" dollars.

- Going to bring something somewhere in between? Document your build, sell some stuff off it, document it in a spreadsheet, bring a binder with build pics & a sensible budget, and give the car a theme.

- Going to bring a veteran Lemons car like the old Tetanus 944? Email me and ask for a residual a la Rule 4.8:

Rule 4.8 wrote:

4.8 Residual Value: Dumb enough to bring the same pile back for another race? Either do the whole BS process again (bring all your papers and evidence—we ain’t gonna remember your sad-sack story from last time) or email the Everything Bagel to beg a residual value. Include clear post-race pix of the car and list any major mechanical stuff that needs fixing.

***

All of this is predicated on you giving a crap about "winning," also. If you haven't figured out your intentions or goals in Lemons, you should think about that.

- Are you chasing the Index of Effluency? Your choice of car should dictate, pretty much, that no Lemons judge will ever care about your budget because the car you chose is horrible.

- Do you want to flex your awesome racing skills to win $400 in nickels for the overall win (aka "Be the bald man who wins the fight over the comb")? Expect that you're not going to drop into Lemons and suddenly be competitive with a Class A car. I'd say a team who has all their shit together organizationally is still going to take at least 5-10 races to crack the Top 5. That's at least 2-4 years. Endurance racing is all about the long game.

- Do you simply want to get cheap wheel to wheel seat time or just want to be part of Lemons, in general? Then the BS Laps don't matter too deeply. As long as your car can pass Tech/Safety Inspection, you get to put your car on the track. Does that mean you can bring anything you want to Lemons? Kind of, but don't expect to get the red carpet rolled out with a fully prepped race car and certainly you're not going to get any leeway in the Penalty Box once the race starts.

Blah Blah Blah. If you have specific questions about specific cars OR you have questions about safety equipment, shoot me an email.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

therood's Website

  • From: Columbus, Oh
  • Registered: 2020-05-19
  • Posts: 313

Re: Real Spending Limit

grandma wrote:

Further, the $500 limit may have worked 10 years ago, but finding a $500 car that moves under its own power today is a difficult task.  I think the rules should be clarified and/or limits increased.

There are plenty of candidates out there... You're just not looking hard enough, not willing to be creative enough, or not adhering to this other Lemons rule:

1.1    Organizers’ Decisions: Organizers’ decisions are final. If you don’t like it, tough. Get your own race.

1989 Merkur XR4Ti: Project Merkur Space Program - Wins: Class C - Colonel and the Sinkhole 2023 | "Heroic Fix" The Pitt Maneuver 2023 | "Halloween Meets Gasoline" The Pitt Maneuver 2022
1980 Dodge Challenger: Most Extreme eLemonAtion Challenger (Rust Belt Ramble 2021 Dishonorable Mention)
  • From: Columbus, Oh
  • Registered: 2020-05-19
  • Posts: 313

Re: Real Spending Limit

VKZ24 wrote:

LThere is a reason "$500 car" is usually in air quotes as there is no such thing, or at least no such thing that should be on a race track.

Hey! I resemble that comment...

1989 Merkur XR4Ti: Project Merkur Space Program - Wins: Class C - Colonel and the Sinkhole 2023 | "Heroic Fix" The Pitt Maneuver 2023 | "Halloween Meets Gasoline" The Pitt Maneuver 2022
1980 Dodge Challenger: Most Extreme eLemonAtion Challenger (Rust Belt Ramble 2021 Dishonorable Mention)
  • chaase
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Online
  • From: East Meadow, NY
  • Registered: 2009-08-06
  • Posts: 1,554

Re: Real Spending Limit

therood wrote:

The "real" spending limit is a sliding scale.

- Going to bring a fully race-prepared 350Z? You're gonna have a bad time.

- Going to bring almost anything off this list? The BS Judges are unlikely to care too deeply about "real" dollars.

- Going to bring something somewhere in between? Document your build, sell some stuff off it, document it in a spreadsheet, bring a binder with build pics & a sensible budget, and give the car a theme.

- Going to bring a veteran Lemons car like the old Tetanus 944? Email me and ask for a residual a la Rule 4.8:

Rule 4.8 wrote:

4.8 Residual Value: Dumb enough to bring the same pile back for another race? Either do the whole BS process again (bring all your papers and evidence—we ain’t gonna remember your sad-sack story from last time) or email the Everything Bagel to beg a residual value. Include clear post-race pix of the car and list any major mechanical stuff that needs fixing.

***

All of this is predicated on you giving a crap about "winning," also. If you haven't figured out your intentions or goals in Lemons, you should think about that.

- Are you chasing the Index of Effluency? Your choice of car should dictate, pretty much, that no Lemons judge will ever care about your budget because the car you chose is horrible.

- Do you want to flex your awesome racing skills to win $400 in nickels for the overall win (aka "Be the bald man who wins the fight over the comb")? Expect that you're not going to drop into Lemons and suddenly be competitive with a Class A car. I'd say a team who has all their shit together organizationally is still going to take at least 5-10 races to crack the Top 5. That's at least 2-4 years. Endurance racing is all about the long game.

- Do you simply want to get cheap wheel to wheel seat time or just want to be part of Lemons, in general? Then the BS Laps don't matter too deeply. As long as your car can pass Tech/Safety Inspection, you get to put your car on the track. Does that mean you can bring anything you want to Lemons? Kind of, but don't expect to get the red carpet rolled out with a fully prepped race car and certainly you're not going to get any leeway in the Penalty Box once the race starts.

Blah Blah Blah. If you have specific questions about specific cars OR you have questions about safety equipment, shoot me an email.


This ^

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner
  • From: Camarillo, CA
  • Registered: 2021-03-26
  • Posts: 385

Re: Real Spending Limit

I think there is a thread that pops up once every week between the facebook groups and the forums regarding this. Biggest take-away is the rule should be interpreted as "$500 of reliability." Show up in a $200k Maybach and you'll end up in class C, 0 penalty laps, and high praise. Show up in a $500 e30 or Miata and get boo'd straight to A class. Make sense? No? Welcome to Lemons!

Full Ass Racing
#455 Piñata Miata - 1990 Miata
#735 BMDollhÜr 7Turdy5i - 1990 735i
  • From: Tustin, CA
  • Registered: 2010-12-30
  • Posts: 3,275

Re: Real Spending Limit

grandma wrote:

Further, the $500 limit may have worked 10 years ago, but finding a $500 car that moves under its own power today is a difficult task.  I think the rules should be clarified and/or limits increased.

I don't get the robot arms helplessness people get about "There are no $500 cars!"

Here is the deal of a century and it already has a cage, has raced in Lemons before and is likely 95% of the way there for a lousy 750 bucks.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it … 249514110/

Here is a site I monitor that lists tow yard auctions.  Almost every week I could fill an entire Lemons race with sub $500 cars bought off this site alone.  Use some imagination.

https://app.joyrideautos.com/home

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)
  • chaase
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  • From: East Meadow, NY
  • Registered: 2009-08-06
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Re: Real Spending Limit

cheseroo wrote:
grandma wrote:

Further, the $500 limit may have worked 10 years ago, but finding a $500 car that moves under its own power today is a difficult task.  I think the rules should be clarified and/or limits increased.

I don't get the robot arms helplessness people get about "There are no $500 cars!"

Here is the deal of a century and it already has a cage, has raced in Lemons before and is likely 95% of the way there for a lousy 750 bucks.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it … 249514110/

Here is a site I monitor that lists tow yard auctions.  Almost every week I could fill an entire Lemons race with sub $500 cars bought off this site alone.  Use some imagination.

https://app.joyrideautos.com/home

I think the last time this came up, I posted a number of cars w/in range available on Facebook Market Place. I think the "issue" is that people are looking for sporty cars instead of cheap cars. I can regularly find Saturn for Lemons money and they make good, reliable Class B cars.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner
  • From: NH
  • Registered: 2010-01-20
  • Posts: 3,299

Re: Real Spending Limit

Man this group is getting a little grumpy today.

Fact is the era of the $500 car has changed. When I started Lemons I could pull up Craigslist and have dozens of interesting options in minutes. That is not true anymore. Now you have to get more creative as a few people have pointed out. This does mean that things have changed and getting started isn't as easy if you're trying to stick to the true letter of the rules. Yes, some good deals still exist, yes previously raced cars are always an option, but can we please stop acting like the $500 car pool is the same as it was in 2010?


As long as new teams understand the idea that the $500 limit means find a cheap car that isn't boring, who cares if it's not a "True" $500 car anymore. The tagline just doesn't sound as good when adjusted to "racing for $702 cars."

20+ Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
Abandoned E36 Build
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice
  • From: Seattle, WA
  • Registered: 2009-10-28
  • Posts: 2,110

Re: Real Spending Limit

grandma wrote:

...finding a $500 car that moves under its own power today is a difficult task.

Options increase significantly if you abandon the idea that you need to find something that is already capable of moving under its own power. My car had been sitting in a farmer's field for years (decades?) when I got it and was utterly incapable of doing anything other than (1) rolling slowly when pushed on its disintegrating flat tires, (2) steering, and (3) continuing to rust. Now, after countless hours of labor and way too much money spent on parts, I can confidently state that its current tires aren't flat.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP, Organizer's Choice 2022 Hell on Wheels California Rally
  • From: Elverson, PA
  • Registered: 2017-08-15
  • Posts: 1,124

Re: Real Spending Limit

Tow truck operator around here said he'd pay $500 for ANY complete car, running or not; and he really meant ANY complete car - with a title.

He's attached to a salvage yard, so I think he's well aware of how to maximize the value of non-functioning vehicles.

During auctions, there's now frequently a minimum price set during pre-bid by the local scrapper; recently I see it around $420 for most of the places I used to go to. Some wind up not much more than $500, frequently close to $600.

But remember: sell stuff off of it, or just take a few penalty laps, and we're good to go.

17 Reply by OnkelUdo (edited by OnkelUdo 2023-02-09 03:06 AM)

  • Registered: 2011-10-14
  • Posts: 4,167

Re: Real Spending Limit

Don't over think it.  The $4000 for sale item is actually many items in one tidy package....one of which is a $400 car. The "spares package" is a $1000, thecage $2600, etc.

  • Registered: 2022-12-17
  • Posts: 18

Re: Real Spending Limit

Hey, I saw a running Chevy CITATION!!! on marketplace for $750. Give ‘em 5 100 dollar bills, and and about hunnert dollars of beer, and they’ll prolly help ya load it up!

  • chaase
  • Lemons Staff Stalker
  • Online
  • From: East Meadow, NY
  • Registered: 2009-08-06
  • Posts: 1,554

Re: Real Spending Limit

Nobunaga wrote:

Hey, I saw a running Chevy CITATION!!! on marketplace for $750. Give ‘em 5 100 dollar bills, and and about hunnert dollars of beer, and they’ll prolly help ya load it up!

It's a Chevy Citation, you could pay $1000.00 for it and you won't get penalty laps.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C x2 and IOE winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner
  • Registered: 2009-05-27
  • Posts: 361

Re: Real Spending Limit

Look, The real answer that you are looking for is....... If I spend this money, Can I race?.....
The answer is YES with a caveat , the only time we don't let you race is if your car does not meet safety standards.
That is about the only time you won't hit the track!
Can you win? if you cheat with $$$$$ and we catch you we will make it tough (but not Impossible, Probably.)

Grandma, You obviously read the rules. If you adhere to the Safety portion of the Rule book you will be able to race! Don't over think it!
Welcome to the Insanity!!!!

Manny

  • From: SF Bay Area
  • Registered: 2012-01-06
  • Posts: 721

Re: Real Spending Limit

Mkotzias wrote:

Welcome to the Insanity!!!!

He hasn't drunk the Kool-Aid, yet. He may prefer Grape.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
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  • From: Chicago-ish
  • Registered: 2010-04-19
  • Posts: 3,498

Re: Real Spending Limit

Looking for stuff to build, anyone? I spent 20 minutes crawling all over the cesspool of FB Marketplace to find you some candidates:

https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/view … p?id=41318

As mentioned, lots of them (most?) are non-running projects. I would tend to agree that the era of a $200 car you can drive home has been gone for a few years. But if you're insistent on a running car, buying a "pre-raced" Lemons car isn't a bad way to start.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

therood's Website

  • From: San Luis Obispo
  • Registered: 2011-09-02
  • Posts: 1,003

Re: Real Spending Limit

therood wrote:

Looking for stuff to build, anyone? I spent 20 minutes crawling all over the cesspool of FB Marketplace to find you some candidates:

He crawled through a river of shit and came out clean on the other side

24 Reply by Bricoop (edited by Bricoop 2023-02-09 03:53 PM)

  • From: San Leandro
  • Registered: 2019-12-17
  • Posts: 222

Re: Real Spending Limit

There is no spending limit. Build a car that adheres to the rules and you will be on the track. People have come with $50,000+ racing vehicles and ruined them on the opening lap (true story). Build what you want. Going really fast around a bunch of slow cars isn’t nearly as fun as pack racing cars that are your speed.