1 (edited by rocketresto 2009-07-27 08:00 PM)

Topic: Chumpcar Race Series

I just saw this in another post but think this deserves it's own post.  This was the first I heard of this and it sounds interesting, the more races the better I say!  The other side of the coin is it does seem like a total rip-off of Lemons even though they say they are not competing with them.  I've got my eyes on the 24 Hour Race in Portland over Halloween although not sure if the Viper Calipers on our car will pass the "2x" rule.

http://www.ThatOtherSeries.com/

Team Oly Express
Current car - 1964.5 Plymouth Barracuda, Former car - Size Does Matter 1967 Plymouth Fury
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Re: Chumpcar Race Series

I've talked and emailed John (professional.dreamer) about the brakes and other stuff.  I think you will be fine but it will take an inspection to know for sure.

The rules are almost identical.  A few more safety requirements and a few more specific instructions like the door bars being 6" apart.

I think the 2x new dealer cost rule is unnecessary and John and I have different opinions on the matter.

I would like to see minimum brake requirements or something in both Lemons and Chump.

I agree with John that Brembo's aren't necessary but they don't bother me.  In my opinion, if someone installs Brembo's they should have really good brakes.  While possibly over kill, they were at least serious enough and took actions to make sure their car was safe.

The guys that scare me are the one's that do little to nothing.  Then they blow calipers, brake lines, master cylinders or brake pads.  If they weren't concerned about their own safety enough to make sure their brakes were in good shape, they certainly don't care about the safety of the other teams around them.

I'd like to see consequences for brake failures.  If a team has a brake failure do to negligent preparation, they get trailered.  If they can show that they took adequate measures and had a replacement part which failed, they can repair the car and continue racing. 

So here's how it works, you can race on old parts and dry rotted brake lines that you should replace but if something you should have replaced fails, your done for the weekend.  The $15, old, almost, dead brake line you didn't think you needed blows, you just became a spectator.  Sure you can save $60 all the way around by not replacing those parts but if it fails, you could cause a bad accident that could involve other cars around you.  So now someone may get injured or their car wrecked and be out of the race too because it became the supplemental brakes for the car behind it.  That sucks, x2.

Anyway, Chump is offering more opportunities to run our crap cans.  We'll have to see how the schedules look once Lemons releases their 2010 calendar.

I look forward to the opportunity to run a true 24 hour race close to home at TMS.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

Troy, I disagree....when you start adding rules like that, you're on the slippery slope to the SCCA....brake failures are a natural consequence of running crap cans and the cars should be driven accordingly...and the circuits should have the runoff areas and overall safety to accommodate them. It's far from 60$ to freshen the brakes on a lot of these cars and parts are difficult to source for many models. Almost all of these machines have dual braking systems so a blown line would not mean no brakes.....If you want a brake rule, then maybe the few older cars ('63 Corvair?) could show up with a working hand brake to supplement their single master cylinder. Sounds like you're ready to move up to a higher level of racing....can a crap can run into you because of poor brakes? Yes, that's why they're crap cans!

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

4 (edited by RogueLeader 2009-07-28 10:50 AM)

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

jimeditorial wrote:

Troy, I disagree....when you start adding rules like that, you're on the slippery slope to the SCCA....brake failures are a natural consequence of running crap cans and the cars should be driven accordingly...and the circuits should have the runoff areas and overall safety to accommodate them. It's far from 60$ to freshen the brakes on a lot of these cars and parts are difficult to source for many models. Almost all of these machines have dual braking systems so a blown line would not mean no brakes.....If you want a brake rule, then maybe the few older cars ('63 Corvair?) could show up with a working hand brake to supplement their single master cylinder. Sounds like you're ready to move up to a higher level of racing....can a crap can run into you because of poor brakes? Yes, that's why they're crap cans!

Thank you i highly agree.  There is only is much you can anticipate and when building a race car on a budget there is no reason to go out and spend hundreds or more on a brake upgrade when what is there with some clean up and checking will suffice.  Anyone who is not a complete idiot should be able to see when a brake line is rotted and replace accordingly. 

Worse yet many of these cars only last a few races so then you will need to replace it with another identical car to be able to re-use 3/4ths of the stuff you bought.  I understand the need for safety and I highly understand the need for brakes, but theres a line that needs to be drawn, and the Lemons crew has drawn it in the right spot here.

Troy wrote:

I agree with John that Brembo's aren't necessary but they don't bother me.  In my opinion, if someone installs Brembo's they should have really good brakes.  While possibly over kill, they were at least serious enough and took actions to make sure their car was safe.

$4000+ brakes on a $500 race car is not "at least serious enough" thats just wrong and unfair to those who can't spend that kind of cash.  Then you can have someone with a car that has a lot of HP (say a Camaro or something) or even a low HP car that has a great power/weight ratio that can now brake hard and deep every lap that will blitz everyone.  Yes I know theres more to the race than that, but introducing high dollar parts like that is the beginning of turning Lemons into the SCCA or NASA.  Lemons is about out DRIVING everyone in more ways than one (tire management, brake management, mechanical prowess, ability to not get penalized), not out spending.

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
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Re: Chumpcar Race Series

It also says in the rules that only people who have particpated in a chumprace before can participate in a "fast" 24 hour race but the first race is a "fast" 24 hour race.  No ballast is allowed in the trunk as well.  We have two cylinder heads bolted into our trunk to make our car handle like a normal car.

Team Oly Express
Current car - 1964.5 Plymouth Barracuda, Former car - Size Does Matter 1967 Plymouth Fury
07 IOE Winner Thunderhill, 12 IOE Winner Sears Pointless
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Re: Chumpcar Race Series

I have also been talking with John about this.  Here is the bottom line, as I've understood it:

Chump Car is focused on the vehicle aspect of crap can racing more than Lemons is.  The series is all about ingenuity, creativity and resourcefulness when building a car, and skill when driving the car.  Some of the shenanigans have been taken away, and replaced with gear-head lust.  And it's absolutely AGAINST overspending and cheating.  That is why there are no bribes allowed, actual serious inspections that will require decent documentation, prizes for engineering ingenuity, AND rules like the 2x brake rule.  Seriously, if you can't make any car stop for 2X the DEALER cost of oem parts, you have no place putting a wrench on a car for either of these series.  Go race some spec class.

Now just wait until you guys see the black flag penalties.  We've been working on them special, and they're a winner all around.  We all have a soft spot in our hearts for all the heroic fix candidates, right smile

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

So...what is the relationship between Chump and Lemons?

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

8 (edited by sbarton 2009-07-28 01:41 PM)

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

I like that they spelled out acceptable and un-acceptable driving behavior.  Specifically that all racers have the right to 'racing room' and what that means. 

http://www.ThatOtherSeries.com/ChumpCar … 072509.pdf

ChumpCar wrote:

8.2. On-Course Driver Conduct
8.2.1. It is the responsibility of all drivers to avoid physical contact between cars on the race track…
however, this is racing and we know it’s going to happen. Therefore, so should you.
8.2.1.1. All competitors have a right to “racing room” on the marked racing surface. “Racing room”
shall be generally defined as sufficient space on the marked racing surface so as to allow a
competitor to maintain control of his/her car in close quarters, under racing conditions.
8.2.1.2. The responsibility for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish that pass safely rests
with the overtaking driver. The driver that is about to be overtaken has the responsibility to be
aware that he or she is about to be passed and shall not impede the overtaking car.
8.2.1.2.1. The driver being overtaken should, at all times, remain on the racing line unless the car is
impaired and is unable to maintain an adequate racing speed.
8.2.1.2.2. The driver being overtaken shall not block.  Any driver who fails to make use of their rear
view mirror, or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass, may be black flagged
and/or penalized

At the New England race, I could not believe how many people thought that blocking, swerving, dive bombing, bumping, and running cars off the road was actually allowed and acceptable in racing.   roll  I could understand it happening once or twice, but some teams where doing this as their primary strategy for trying to be competative.  Their actions were actually quite dangerous, but they never got a black flag until they inevitably hit someone or went 2 wheels off themselves. 

BMWCCA Club Racing website talks about it further:
http://www.bmwccaclubracing.com/Informa … ition.aspx

BMWCCA_Club_Racing wrote:

GCR 9.1.1: The Responsibility...rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver has the responsibility to be aware...and not to impede...The overtaken driver shall not block. Any driver who fails to make use of the rear view mirror, or who appears to be blocking…, may be black flagged and/or penalized.*

That’s it. All of it. The entirety of the “Rules of the Road” regarding drivers dealing with the presence of each other. Succinct, isn’t it? If not downright cryptic.

Actually its rather verbose compared to the usual bench racing pronouncement. “whoever has his nose in front has the corner”. One wonders why we would be interested in something so simplistic.

Such statements usually come at the end of a discussion of some racing incident, which in turn was likely caused when one or both drivers ignored the real rule of the road: Know where the other one is if at all possible and, whether it is or not, leave room for him or her to survive the moment.

Having your nose in front does not mean you own the corner. That other car is still present, is still racing, and has the right to enough space to exist. Just a car width plus a few inches, that’s all.

And, if you are in the other seat and that guy does not have his nose in front , it does not mean he or she doesn’t own the corner either. If you drive all the way to the apex and that car was far enough up or coming on so fast that contact can reasonably be expected to happen, you just violated the rule. He or she could even be fully behind you but be obviously committed to the inside at such a speed that you can no longer move into that path without being hit. You must be aware of the relative speed and car placements, then decide what you can or cannot do. It all comes down to judgment.

That is the core of racing, the very essence of it. If you demand or need the entire road to race, go Solo I instead. Wheel-to-wheel racing centers on dealing effectively with the presence of each other and still racing. You should be able to get or stay in front by superior skill &/or equipment, not by your willingness to commit mayhem.

Being a race car driver entails leaving that car width plus inches, then instantaneously picking and driving a racing line using the part of the road left to you.

It is everchanging and requires intense constant concentration while operating at the car’s limits within the situations. It has no hard, set rules like ”nose in front”. That’s as untenable as the “rules” of emergencies. (What do you do when a car spins in front of you)? How should I know? I’ve only had a few hundred of them. Simplistic souls say steer for it, hit the gas, scream “Oh S…”. What happens is, you take in endless bits of information, process it, make a decision, act, reevaluate, act again, and so on — all faster than onlookers can gasp and jump to their feet. That’s what makes race drivers. We do not react. We think, at speeds that seem to be reactions. We revel in that ability. And the volume of our thought processes in those moments explains why a brief incident can require so much description.

If you cannot do this, you are no race driver. That’s why being one is such a big deal. Who would care if anyone could do it?

And if you insist on disregarding the other guy, moving over knowing contact is likely, you are also not a race driver. You are a jerk. A fast jerk, possibly, but a jerk nonetheless. Any other story is b.s.

You are also somewhat shortsighted. Contact between cars tends to unsettle them, to make the moment ragged and uneven, and that has never been the description of how to go fast. It also causes damage to your car, damage that may end your race and that you yourself have to pay for. Why one would choose to cost himself unnecessary expense for the privilege of going slower escapes me.

Racing will give you plenty of opportunity for that without your assistance. Untimely mechanical foul-ups, human errors (your and others), and occasional bad luck will at times manage your charger. You don’t need to encourage that with an attitude that racing is sheer nerve and guts. It’s not. It IS concentration, attention, and skill —– skill that delights in showing the other guy that you can drive around him and still do it faster. That’s where our attitude shows.
             - Mike Carney

I hope that Lemons would somehow address this issue formally as it is a matter of safety more than anything. 

-Scott

Scott Barton

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

sbarton wrote:

At the New England race, I could not believe how many people thought that blocking, swerving, dive bombing, bumping, and running cars off the road was actually allowed and acceptable in racing.   roll  I could understand it happening once or twice, but some teams where doing this as their primary strategy for trying to be competative.  Their actions were actually quite dangerous, but they never got a black flag until they inevitably hit someone or went 2 wheels off themselves.

Yep it was fun to get forced into the grass not on a corner but on the front straightaway by someone too proud to be passed by a VW Fox (not you guys don't worry). 

I think though in a few cases its also people not remembering the etiquette rule that its the responsibility of the overtaking driver to complete the pass safely and to just hold your line.  I saw a few instances of people trying to get out of the way and ended up blocking someone else when they would have been fine if they just held their line.

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
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10 (edited by sbarton 2009-07-28 01:32 PM)

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

For the most part I saw a lot of rookie mistakes where they either did not see them, where not paying attention, or didn't understand racing, or just succommed to red mist.  If it happens once or twice I can live with that.  I'm sure I may have accidently done it. 

My concern was the few teams that were doing this on purpose.  I can only hope that they were just newbs who thought that it was technically legal or something because they saw it on Days of Thunder or The Fast and The Furious.  I'll give them the benefit of doubt and hope they weren't doing it knowing that it was illegal and dangerous.  Specifically mentioning it in the rules would atleast inform people and eliminate the excuse that they didn't know better.

Scott Barton

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

Jer wrote:

So...what is the relationship between Chump and Lemons?

The Head Guy at Chump Car owned Altamont when Jay and Crew started Lemons.  They worked together to get Lemons going. 

The Chump Car web site says this:

Is ChumpCar competing with the 24 Hours of Lemons?
p Not at all. Our management team was engaged with Lemons at its founding, including promoting
and putting on the first Lemons events. And we continue to support Lemons in every possible way,
including participating in their races! We developed the ChumpCar World Series as an adjunct to
Lemons, to bring $500 “crap-can” racing to those geographic areas and tracks that were not being
served by Lemons or, in certain cases, were underserved based on the demand for additional races,
as shown by overwhelming car counts. ChumpCar’s rules are 95% identical with Lemons rules to
allow competitors to enter both series and double their fun. Lemons is unique… and we think that
ChumpCar is also unique, based on our race format, support of local charities, and especially
because of the tracks that we race at. The ChumpCar World Series will not hold events at any track
where Lemons has already held events (2006-2009) and has established its brand. Additionally,
ChumpCar will not hold an event within 30-days of any Lemons event at a track within a 250-mile
radius of the Lemons event location. It’s a big country and there are a lot of racers out there.

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

RogueLeader wrote:
jimeditorial wrote:

Troy, I disagree....when you start adding rules like that, you're on the slippery slope to the SCCA....brake failures are a natural consequence of running crap cans and the cars should be driven accordingly...and the circuits should have the runoff areas and overall safety to accommodate them. It's far from 60$ to freshen the brakes on a lot of these cars and parts are difficult to source for many models. Almost all of these machines have dual braking systems so a blown line would not mean no brakes.....If you want a brake rule, then maybe the few older cars ('63 Corvair?) could show up with a working hand brake to supplement their single master cylinder. Sounds like you're ready to move up to a higher level of racing....can a crap can run into you because of poor brakes? Yes, that's why they're crap cans!

Thank you i highly agree.  There is only is much you can anticipate and when building a race car on a budget there is no reason to go out and spend hundreds or more on a brake upgrade when what is there with some clean up and checking will suffice.  Anyone who is not a complete idiot should be able to see when a brake line is rotted and replace accordingly.

I guess I was not clear enough.

My point is the 2x Rule is not much of a restriction.  At twice the dealer cost, you have a huge budget in many cases, probably enough for Brembos if you are that nuts.

"Anyone who is not a complete idiot should be able to see when a brake line is rotted and replace accordingly."

They "should" but that does not mean they DO.  Some tracks may have run off areas but not all do.

"It's far from 60$ to freshen the brakes on a lot of these cars and parts are difficult to source for many models."

Typically, new rubber brake hoses are about $15 a piece for a lot of cars.  So a new set would run around $60.  That leaves a lot of other stuff to freshen up a brake system.

I replaced the entire brake system on our 240Z because it sat in a field for more than 10 years and the tanks on the master cylinder had literally disintegrated.

At New Orleans, the Low Budget 280ZX which has been the highest finishing Nissan in Lemons.  Lost a caliper and wore out their rear brake pads.  Their rear pads wore out because no one looked that them to make sure they were race ready.  We loaned/gave them a front caliper but they had the earlier style rear pads so I didn't have spares for them.  They had no spares and only 4 tires.  My friend loaned them tires on Sunday while they were getting their tires flipped and rebalanced.  They had two brake failures but managed to get their machinist to leave their parts dirty on the outside.  You think they are the only team like this? 

Also at New Orleans, another 280ZX running to raise money for a dog shelter blew a brake hose, I don't remember their team name.

Since I race a Z, Z guys came to me looking for parts and I helped where I could.  Maybe only Z guys had problems in New Orleans I don't know but I doubt it.

With so many teams running questionable roll cages, the rules got a bit of a bump but inspections have gotten more thorough. Lots of guys in new Orleans had to make roll cage improvements.

Point is when left to the discretion of a lot of teams, they do as little on safety as they can get away with but will do all they can to make their car faster.  If teams paid as much attention to safety as they do to trying to go fast, the cars would all be really safe.

There are really no brake inspections in our race.  I just proposed the idea that a brake failure do to negligent preparation puts your car on the trailer.  Apparently not all "idiots" can spot rotted brake lines or worn out brake pads.  Point is there are no administrative consequences.  The potential physical consequences are an accident and the results of that accident.  With the potential of being put out of the race, maybe teams would take a more serious look at their brakes.

It took a charred BMW before we got much of an exhaust system inspection.  Earnhart's death resulted in the requirement of the Hans in NASCAR.  Funny how everyone blows stuff off until something serious happens.

Regarding "racing room" a team mate got repeatedly blocked by the red SHO.  Now I've got a rolled hood.  Ask them what happened you get a different story.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

But Troy, nobody wants their brakes to fail....newbie teams will figure this out quickly and fix their systems. Pre-race tech needs to determine if the pedal is hard and move on...a proper hose inspection would take forever...and it's difficult to do throughly unless there's an obvious issue. If teams are putting their resources in the wrong areas, i.e. speed, the track layout can quickly take care of it. You can't regulate common sense....if you do you'll quickly price newbie teams out of Lemons and it will become another club racing series. I started off knowing nothing and made every mistake in the book, but I had to have a cheap entry level series to get the necessary experience. Having the pedal go to the floor will do more to illustrate the importance of solid brakes than any rulebook...and Lemons (along with modern dual circuit braking systems) is about the only safe place to experience this. Where I agree is on the few cars with older single circuit hydraulics, but few rookie teams without experience attempt the older machines. We have to think about the  new guys....spread the word, yes and show them the way it should be done but lets keep rules to a minimum

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

jimeditorial wrote:

But Troy, nobody wants their brakes to fail....newbie teams will figure this out quickly and fix their systems. Pre-race tech needs to determine if the pedal is hard and move on...a proper hose inspection would take forever...and it's difficult to do throughly unless there's an obvious issue. If teams are putting their resources in the wrong areas, i.e. speed, the track layout can quickly take care of it. You can't regulate common sense....if you do you'll quickly price newbie teams out of Lemons and it will become another club racing series. I started off knowing nothing and made every mistake in the book, but I had to have a cheap entry level series to get the necessary experience. Having the pedal go to the floor will do more to illustrate the importance of solid brakes than any rulebook...and Lemons (along with modern dual circuit braking systems) is about the only safe place to experience this. Where I agree is on the few cars with older single circuit hydraulics, but few rookie teams without experience attempt the older machines. We have to think about the  new guys....spread the word, yes and show them the way it should be done but lets keep rules to a minimum

I agree...  A brake check to make sure the pedal is stiff is about all that can be expected at tech.  There is only so much that can be done. 

The point is there is only so much hand holding you can do with 60+ race teams showing up at an amateur race.  They have to allow for some level of responsibility of showing up with functional brakes, you WON'T get very far with them shot and those involved will realize quickly they spent $4k+ prepping a car to go 20 laps and feel like morons.  Educating everyone to that here and at the race is fine, but rules and in depth inspections goes way too far.  Thats aside from the massive hole it will open up to allow the fast teams to toss on $4000 brakes and tear everyone up, putting a big gap between the Haves and Have nots.

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
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Re: Chumpcar Race Series

RogueLeader wrote:

Thats aside from the massive hole it will open up to allow the fast teams to toss on $4000 brakes and tear everyone up, putting a big gap between the Haves and Have nots.

Seriously, $4,000 brakes wont magically allow a team to win.

Fall South 09- 23rd place
Southern Discomfort '10 Magnum PU- 5th place
Spring South '10- 1st...... LOSER!

16 (edited by RogueLeader 2009-07-29 09:25 AM)

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

ecugrad wrote:
RogueLeader wrote:

Thats aside from the massive hole it will open up to allow the fast teams to toss on $4000 brakes and tear everyone up, putting a big gap between the Haves and Have nots.

Seriously, $4,000 brakes wont magically allow a team to win.

This is obvious.  Check the rest of the post though, $4000 brakes can give a well prepared and well driven team a large advantage over an equivalently well prepared and well driven team who cant scratch up $4000 for brakes that would allow them to brake far deeper into corners.  At a track like Stafford I don't think there would be much if any advantage, but at CMP or Nelsons all bets are off.  And that IMO is far outside the spirit of Lemons.

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
Click here to "Like" us on Facebook   Click here for our Youtube Videos
Lifetime Achievement (of hopelessness) Award Winners

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

RogueLeader wrote:
ecugrad wrote:
RogueLeader wrote:

Thats aside from the massive hole it will open up to allow the fast teams to toss on $4000 brakes and tear everyone up, putting a big gap between the Haves and Have nots.

Seriously, $4,000 brakes wont magically allow a team to win.

This is obvious.  Check the rest of the post though, $4000 brakes can give a well prepared and well driven team a large advantage over an equivalently well prepared and well driven team who cant scratch up $4000 for brakes that would allow them to brake far deeper into corners.  At a track like Stafford I don't think there would be much if any advantage, but at CMP or Nelsons all bets are off.  And that IMO is far outside the spirit of Lemons.

You do know that brakes don't stop the cars, right?  You are still limited by the tires.  I do understand that bigger brakes will hold up longer to the heat but I still can't see how its a major game changer.  The true 24 hour races may be the exception.

FURTHERMORE, with a bit of research, wise ebay shopping and hard work.  This mythical $4,000 brake kit could probably be replicated for $500 in parts above and beyond the typical rotors/pads most guys have to buy anyway.  Add to that, the fact that most brake "upgrades" don't work that well because folks mismatch the master cylinder and calipers.

IMHO, too much brake + 190 treadwear tires in a NON-ABS car (I am sure the majority of Lemons cars do not have ABS) is a recipe for flat spotted tires not some miraculous overdog scenario.

Fall South 09- 23rd place
Southern Discomfort '10 Magnum PU- 5th place
Spring South '10- 1st...... LOSER!

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

The beauty of racing with box-stock brakes is the conservation discipline it teaches....I agree, limited braking teaches smoothness and momentum, while gold plated systems promote cut and thrust. Maybe we should leave that for the SCCA guys...

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

19 (edited by RobL 2009-07-29 10:04 AM)

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

Tom, contrary to popular belief, bigger brakes do not let you "out brake" people and have shorter stopping distances.  They let the brakes absorb more heat, run cooler, allow you to use a wider range of brake compounds, which can allow you to not use up pads as fast.  Tires do the braking and you should be tire limited before you are brake limited.

If you get the correct temperature brake pads, fresh DOT 4 fluid, have a well maintained system where nothing is binding, and get the brake proportioning correct, 90% of the Lemons cars out there will do fine on the stock brake system.  The other 10% are fielding off the wall cars which don't have high performance pads available. 

The brake pads on the MR2 cost more than the car.  And at a local track day, it was able to haul it's ass down from 130mph to about 40 again and again.  While one of my students cars was only able to do the same twice before the pads were cooked (same track, same approximate weight cars, same entry speed).  The things that are of course wrong in this are that a) we had a Lemons car up to about 130mph and b) it wasn't the one that was on a scary ride.

edit: damn - sniped not once, but twice...

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

I'll give you an example of what we did with our 67 Plymouth Fury, keeping in mind we have continually updated stuff over 5 races now.

We started out with stock Mopar C-Body front brakes which are a great stock design, they use thick 12 inch vented one-piece rotors that work well out of the gate.  The rear brakes for the first race were stock 11x2 inch drums.  We used good Porterfield pads and other than cooking the rear shoes a little (not enough cooling) the brakes did well.  For the second race we swapped in 11x3 inch drums (manually adjusted) and hogged out the backing plates for better cooling, this set-up worked better and even in our 4200 pound car were continually out braking almost everything on the track going into the second chicane on the straighaway at Thunderhill.  We did not have a hint of brake fade either.  We kept this set-up for the next Altamont race as well as the 24 Hour race in Toledo last year.  We ran into two problems with this set-up, one was we cracked our front brake pads.  Not from heat or wear but because the one piston caliper pressed so hard on our front brake pads it developed cracks in a circle pattern around where the piston was pressing.  This may have had something to do with us using the pads for 2 races, but it was still a problem.  The pads could easily have fallen apart during the race.  The other problem we ran into was the manually adjusted rear brake shoes.  During any race they would wear down and need adjustment out, especially during the 24 hour race.  That is not something that is easily fixed during a race.  This caused the drivers to have to double pump the brakes everytime they had to stop, one to bring the pads out to the drums and one to do the actual breaking, not an ideal set-up.

Our solution to this was to run an adaptor plate a friend of ours came up with to run 4 piston Viper calipers on the stock C-Body rotors.  The cost of the calipers was about $700 for the pair but it gave us equal quench on the front rotors and prevented the pads from cracking.  We also put Mustang Cobra brakes on the rear axle to fix the adjustment problem.  The adaptor brackets, calipers and rotors were $600.  Does the car stop any better now?  In all honesty I don't think it does, maybe a little better near the end of the race because of the rear adjustment problem.

For Lemons this is all under safety, for Chumpcar?  I don't know.  We could easily put the stock drums and calipers on it and it would stop almost as well but we still have the safety issues.  Also, just doing a quick search on Rockauto.com, new rear drums are $130 a piece and front rotors are $150 a piece, am I close enough with the 2X rule?  That doesn't include new calipers, brake hoses, brake pads, etc, etc (which we of course already have with the car but are still included in the 2X rule).  It's not like we are running a super fancy set-up, it's all stuff we have had engineered for us to work on our car.

Just wanted to share our saga of brakes on a giant car, not sure if this answers any questions or just makes the topic more complicated.

Team Oly Express
Current car - 1964.5 Plymouth Barracuda, Former car - Size Does Matter 1967 Plymouth Fury
07 IOE Winner Thunderhill, 12 IOE Winner Sears Pointless
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21 (edited by RogueLeader 2009-07-29 10:42 AM)

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

I understand all you both have said, I know bigger brakes do not give shorter stopping distances thats not my point, but I guess to elaborate on what I am saying is an expensive set of brakes will dissipate heat faster and allow a car (in this case a Lemons car) to brake deeply every lap consistently whereas instead a stock caliper even with good pads will lose itself earlier in many cases.  And all things else being equal that car will be faster.  Ok so we are limited by the tires too, well that can be remedied by plenty of spares since we are throwing a ton of money at it. 

We are getting into a bit much in the way of semantics, my real point with this is that once Lemons starts allowing things like full out race brakes the spirit of building a $500 race car is gone (yeah i know it really costs 4grand anyway).  Because when all is said and done nobody is adding a set of Brembos for safety purposes, they are adding them so they can out brake the next guy every single lap consistently.  (EDIT: now I see rocketrestos post and have to eat my own words)

I also agree with what Rob has said that Lemons Cars can do more than fine with most stock brake systems which was my first point, basically that if the brakes work and you do a modicum of preparation (check the lines for leaks, bleed the system and install good fluid, and put good new pads on) that should be fine and you do not need to start spending money on replacing everything if it already works.

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
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22 (edited by sbarton 2009-07-29 11:07 AM)

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

Maybe the BMW OEM brakes are really good but all we did was use a good set of track pads; Performance Friction PFC06's.  Didn't really need them at Stafford, but at the 4 days we tested the car at NJMP Thunderbolt raceway, we had no issues of fade or anything running in the advanced and instructor run groups. 

A fresh set of rotors, high performance track pads, DOT 4 brake fluid, and SS lines will do wonders.  At the speeds of Lemons cars on Lemons tracks, you should not need anything more.  If you do, then you're doing something wrong. 

Guide to Upgrading Brakes on a Budget

-Scott

Scott Barton

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

...and thus the basis for the "2X" rule.  It works, because stock brakes will do just fine and if you can spend double that amount, you should be able to all that much better without the need for breaking both the bank or the intent/spirit of the rules.

"Age only matters if you're a cheese."  Helen Hayes

24 (edited by sbarton 2009-07-29 11:20 AM)

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

Also I'm pretty sure that brakes are currently considered safety item and therefore not subject to any budget in Lemons.  How many Lemons cars have showed up with $4k aftermarket Brembo BBK's?  I'm pretty sure it is ZERO so this is probably a moot point anyway. 

If you really wanted a performance advantage, it would be in the wheel/tire category.  Super wide, uber light racing rims with the widest stickest 200tw rubber you can fit under your flared and tubbed fenders would definately make a car faster.  Of course if you actually do that, you might as well just tattoo the word ASSHOLE on your forhead for the event.  wink

-Scott

Scott Barton

Re: Chumpcar Race Series

professional.dreamer wrote:

...and thus the basis for the "2X" rule.  It works, because stock brakes will do just fine and if you can spend double that amount, you should be able to all that much better without the need for breaking both the bank or the intent/spirit of the rules.

I agree...

sbarton makes a good point, under current Lemons rules you definitley could show up with big dollar brakes.  But it seems everyone has stayed in the spirit of Lemons racing.

That said Lemons rules also allows the judges to basically declare penalties for whatever they want, so while the crazy wheel idea and the big brake idea both fit within the rules, that wont stop a judge from tossing you a 500 lap penalty.  So it all works out in the end!

Tom Lomino - Proud to be a 23x Lemons Loser, 3x Class B, and 1x IOE Winner!
Craptain, Team Farfrumwinnin - 1995 Volkswagen Golf #14
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