Topic: Honda Z600 street car project continues

Finally some action on the project, this has been going along for a while...

A little background: I got this car for free on Craigslist a few years ago, with the idea of maybe a Lemons car.
Once the Hamsters did their Z600, it was decided to concentrate on the Cavalier(s) and do some racing- but the Z600 didn't get entirely forgotten. I've been gathering parts for a while and trying some different ideas tech-wise.

I had one of these back in the 90s, and I liked it a lot, but it was sadly underpowered and underbraked... I thought 'heck, if it'll end up a street car I don't have to worry about budget so much, let's go for power!'

I found a cheap VFR800 motor- the V4 shape is the biggest displacement that will fit in the Z's 19" x 19" x 20" engine bay. I still had to space the front subframe off the firewall a few mm to get the alternator cover away from the steering rack, but everything fits, and the driveshaft (aside from having to go through the passenger compartment on the way to the tunnel) isn't offset enough to be a problem on the way back to the final drive.

The Honda hydraulic clutch is using a Yamaha brake master cylinder bolted to the fenderwell with the Z600 stock clutch cable through a cut down lever. The radiators are from a Kawasaki dirt bike, under $100 on ebay for some fine Chinese craftsmanship- ordered by dimension. There's one in front of the engine behind the grille, but I wanted enough core to have a margin, plus I can put a fan on the sideways one...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/clutchlink_radiators.jpg

Here's a look down behind the engine showing the alternator/waterpump clearance.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/steerack_shiftlink_alt.jpg

The heim joint is bolted to a bellcrank that lets me shift the bike transmission with the stock shifter, I really wanted it to be subtle- this is the complete stock Z linkage inside the cabin.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/shiftlinkage.jpg

Here's the driver's view, the shifter falls nicely to hand. I still want to make a 1N23456 shift knob.
I freely admit to sitting in the drivers seat and making 'vroom' noises while shifting up and down...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/dash_shifter.jpg

It's got a Geo Metro master cylinder, and I just finished the throttle cable / pedal interface.
I'm going to use the Z choke knob for the VFR fast idle (and getting the VFR PGM-FI injection to work correctly in a car has been an adventure!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl3lox7nfuk

The Hamsters solved their 'front suspension designed for 36hp' problem by transplanting an RX-7 front subframe. I don't have the facilities to do that, plus I wanted to keep the stock Z600 subframe and suspension pickup points. This is a reversed left-to-right Mazda 323 lower control arm with stock rear bushing and a GLC front bushing in a loop welded to the Z subframe. I think it'll be strong enough, and the arc is the same as the Z.

There are a couple of tubing bars under the engine for sump protection. That heim joint in the middle of the picture is the other end of the shift linkage from the cabin.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/engine_under.jpg

Ok, bastard parts time: Acura RSX strut, custom Z600 steering arms welded (not by me!) to the struts to give minimal bump steer and good ackerman. Geo Metro Steering knuckles and brakes (go go Rock Auto closeout- those rebuilt calipers were $13 each...)
Cheesy ebay coilovers with Escort wagon rear springs (theoretically the right rate, but there may be some spring experimentation later).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/leftstrut_brakes_etc.jpg

On to the rear: Shamelessly stolen (in idea if not execution) Hamster 3-link rear suspension design:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/Z600rearaxle1.jpg

Springs will live back here, not sure if the springs being mounted more towards the middle will screw up the handling, but I didn't want to mount them as far outboard as the Hamsters.
Buggy gas tank has to share space with rear axle and panhard link. Not a lot of extra real estate back here if you're trying to keep it as a street car. I have figured out how to use the stock fender fuel filler with this tank, and all of this fuel-related stuff will be under sheet metal and Dynamat...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/tanksprings.jpg

In between all this is the reverse gearbox, the single most expensive part on the whole car.
It still amazes me that there are so many bike-engine cars in England that there are THREE different companies that will sell you a reversing gearbox.
Driveshaft dives through the floor and connects up with a 1210 yoke/u joint. The 'transmission' tunnel on this car is tiny.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/reversebox.jpg

That's it for now, more as it goes.

-Anton

2x Volvo PV544 (RIP '63) B20 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 143 races and counting.
2/25/24

2 (edited by X-args 2011-11-14 03:49 PM)

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

It's a roller! Finally got the suspension sorted enough that I could push it out of the garage and do the 30-point turn in the driveway so I could work on the other side (it's a tiny garage!).

Here it is in all of its cute 70s glory:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/sideview-1.jpg

Those are 13-inch wheels with 175/60/13 tires- they look HUGE.
I realize the front ride height is goofy, I guessed wrong on the front spring rate, even with zero preload the 250lb springs don't compress enough, so 200lb springs going in shortly.

Got the driveshaft and reverse box in place, it could theoretically move on its own now...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/driverview2.jpg

Here's a better shot of the rear suspension and reverse box:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/undercarriage_rear.jpg

Still no panhard or rear springs, that's why it got turned around, now I can weld on the brackets and get the rear suspension located laterally...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/3qrear.jpg

Shoving it back in that garage- still lots to do, but I can see the dark at the end of the tunnel...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/rearview-2.jpg


Still need to get some longer steering rod ends, I can't get the toe close to zero yet.
I think I'm going to use quad/atv rod ends, they are tiny. Looks like 10mm and a dainty little taper to the steering knuckle and 12mm to the tie rod. The Geo Metro ones are too big, I thought I'd be able to use those... If anyone knows of some little steering rod ends I'm all ears!

Fuel line to the back still needs to be run, and I hope to use the original fuel hard line as the return line.

2x Volvo PV544 (RIP '63) B20 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 143 races and counting.
2/25/24

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

You need to get a set of 4 wheel dollies!  I can spin my full-size car completely around in my garage if needed.  (My driveway is sloped, so that helps a great deal!)

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Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

There are conical to heim joint adapter studs you could buy. they also sell the conical reamers to make your steering knuckles the right taper and size for them.  Heim joints, tube ends, some tube, and double adjusters if necessary gives you heim joined tie rods to the size you want.  You could get heim joint seals if you're worried about junk getting in.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

It turns out that Fiero steering rod ends are a perfect match, and $25/pair from Rockauto.
The fiero ends gave me the 3/4 inch per side I needed to get the toe zeroed, now I'm working on the front springs again before getting serious about finishing the rear lateral link...

2x Volvo PV544 (RIP '63) B20 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 143 races and counting.
2/25/24

6 (edited by X-args 2011-12-31 08:03 AM)

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

It's a runner! Having the week off = taking the car to the shop and days of fabrication...

Time to load 'er up- here is 40 years of Japanese car development: 1972 Z600 < 2006 Tundra

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/z600_loading-1.jpg

And this is with engine in place, it's almost as heavy as it will be

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/z600_tundra1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/z600_tundra2.jpg

Unloading:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/z600_unloading.jpg

Welding in the panhard bar:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/z600_panhardA.jpg

Side view, yes it's braced to the other frame rail...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/z600_panhard_side-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/cheatcommando/z600_panhardB.jpg

http://youtu.be/W6IDLKDkezI

2x Volvo PV544 (RIP '63) B20 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 143 races and counting.
2/25/24

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

Sweet ! I'm gladvyou found tie rod because I popped a few atv ones before.

I still got your seat if you want ton run it or a got a pair of Honda del sol seats.

Pit Crew Revenge Racing   Rolling chicanelimo,95Lamdspeeder,Gimp Pimp Cadi,300zx Car show kaboom!! 90 Wagovan, mazda v8 Lemons LOGO TATTOO!  Aces 84 Cadi Eldo Briattz I O E WINNER
Class C win with LemonOdy Cannonball Run Whambulance !EX K Captain
Lemons Trophy Truck ShaGuar Baby!

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

I'd have been afraid to put that much weight on a Toyota tailgate... yikes

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Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

I can't wait to drive this thing.  I can drive it, right?

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

BADASSERY!!!!!!!!

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Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

Awesome.

Do you have a huge anti-sway bar for the rear?
Seems like you're going to need it with the springs in that close together.

-Victor

12 (edited by X-args 2011-12-31 09:24 PM)

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

It's all just proof-of-concept stuff right now. I just drove it about 100 yards and found out a few things, none of them a surprise. It's very much in beta...

Not worried about the suspension balance for a while I think...

It needs more radiator/fan, the clutch slips which I think/hope is the slave pushrod, and it's still little more than a giant VFR800 powered pile of parts flying in close proximity. It still needs a lot of sorting.

But it's pretty fucking cool.

2x Volvo PV544 (RIP '63) B20 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 143 races and counting.
2/25/24

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

There is 10' of space behind the limo on the 4 car to use that in Buttonwillow !

Pit Crew Revenge Racing   Rolling chicanelimo,95Lamdspeeder,Gimp Pimp Cadi,300zx Car show kaboom!! 90 Wagovan, mazda v8 Lemons LOGO TATTOO!  Aces 84 Cadi Eldo Briattz I O E WINNER
Class C win with LemonOdy Cannonball Run Whambulance !EX K Captain
Lemons Trophy Truck ShaGuar Baby!

14

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

That is fantastic!  Keep the heap-updates coming!

This space for rent.

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

Very cool!  What kind of dash display/lcd is that?

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

16 (edited by X-args 2012-01-01 08:26 AM)

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

jrbe wrote:

Very cool!  What kind of dash display/lcd is that?

It's a 2001-2006 Honda CBR600 F4i dash, which is a popular choice for other project bikes of that era because it's self-contained and not part of a dash assembly. The 14000 rpm redline is actually 2000 rpm optimistic, but it has a rev limiter and stops making power past 11000+ anyway.

I made a hall-effect trigger gear for the stock speed sensor that should be fairly close- the speedo works from teh output shaft.

I wanted an oil pressure gauge since a big bike-engine car problem is oil starvation- and the stock low-fuel indicator is just an idiot light <-- why I have those additional gauges...

2x Volvo PV544 (RIP '63) B20 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 143 races and counting.
2/25/24

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

Interesting.  I had a 600 sedan (as well as a 360 Japan market sedan) back in the early eighties.  They were a hoot to drive.  I noticed you mentioned 3 different companies in England that make reversing gear boxes.  Would it be too much trouble to send a link to them at blove@socal.rr.com with any recommendations you might have about any of them?  Thanks and good luck.

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

More updates please.  This is such an awesome build.

What are you planning for wheels and tires.  And, does it include flares/boxes?

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Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

That car is great, but I have an important question for X-args: Where is the Lemons Cimarron? WHERE?

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

I don't know, he seems pretty busy driving Subarus and Porsches these days to deal with building yet another General Motors Project!

21 (edited by doctawife 2012-01-12 07:05 AM)

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

Judge Phil wrote:

That car is great, but I have an important question for X-args: Where is the Lemons Cimarron? WHERE?

Have you seen his place? No space! The fact that he has a daily driver, a motorcycle and a project car is a miracle. Oh, and his Forza 4 set up is pretty sweet too.

Don't rag on the X-args. He'll get around to another Lemons car eventually. And it will rock.

I'm the doctor who is a wife. Which makes the grease hard to explain to my patients... www.tetanusneon.com.

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

I've been looking for a cimmaron to stash at my house for X-args as a surprise

Pit Crew Revenge Racing   Rolling chicanelimo,95Lamdspeeder,Gimp Pimp Cadi,300zx Car show kaboom!! 90 Wagovan, mazda v8 Lemons LOGO TATTOO!  Aces 84 Cadi Eldo Briattz I O E WINNER
Class C win with LemonOdy Cannonball Run Whambulance !EX K Captain
Lemons Trophy Truck ShaGuar Baby!

23 (edited by X-args 2012-01-12 11:44 AM)

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

Ok, it's back home and I'm working on the electrics and mapping out the driveshaft tunnel. More pics soon.

Tires/wheels are pretty much as it is now, 13x4.5" Excel wheels and 175/60/13 tires (up from the original 145x10!). It's gonna have Angry Hamster trailer-fender style rear flares and I have some original Mini front plastic flares that I think will work.

It comes back to the suspension geometry and how much compression I can get before the front lower control arms bottom against the frame.

Being in this netherworld between cars and bikes has been interesting. The packaging requirements are so much different, I've stumbled a couple times translating what will work vs. what is appropriate for ~3x the powertrain load... It's all development stuff now, the boring details that I don't always have the patience for- but I'm working on it, dammit.

I found a big oil cooler for it, and the chinese dirt bike radiators look big enough for now.

I just put in the LED truck-lite headlights- less draw for the pair than the original VFR headlight- VFR800s have marginal electrical output, so I want to maximize my wattage. I'll be replacing as many of the marker lights and stop/tail etc. with LEDs as possible.

I dug up the stock oxygen sensors just so I won't have an 'EFI' light on all the time.
It runs ok, now I need to tidy up the underhood electrics.

Also working on zeroing out the front camber.
Calculating the suspension geometry has been a right pain in the arse- do you do 90% or 100+% anti-squat for the rear three-link, slant the links outward front to back for roll toe control, compliant rubber link ends or poly or ball/socket...

It's all pretty noisy/harsh, but the controls are IMMEDIATE and have ok feel. I need to get a temp moving permit for it so I can drive it on the street (or at least a parking lot) and get the brake bias sorted. So far it's all been 30 second bursts of 'OMG it actually works!' and 'Ooh, pretty quick as well...' Looks like ~100hp and 1600lb or less, but I'll be piling in the Dynamat and carpet for some semblance of civility...

2x Volvo PV544 (RIP '63) B20 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 143 races and counting.
2/25/24

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

X-args wrote:

Also working on zeroing out the front camber.
Calculating the suspension geometry has been a right pain in the arse- do you do 90% or 100+% anti-squat for the rear three-link, slant the links outward front to back for roll toe control, compliant rubber link ends or poly or ball/socket...

Whoa there cowboy are you building a drag race car?  You're going to have all kinds of brake hop with that much anti-squat.  Keep that number down in the 30% range if you actually want to drive it on the street.  Set you links up for just a tiny bit of roll-understeer.

Re: Honda Z600 street car project continues

squirrelly_z600 wrote:
X-args wrote:

Also working on zeroing out the front camber.
Calculating the suspension geometry has been a right pain in the arse- do you do 90% or 100+% anti-squat for the rear three-link, slant the links outward front to back for roll toe control, compliant rubber link ends or poly or ball/socket...

Whoa there cowboy are you building a drag race car?  You're going to have all kinds of brake hop with that much anti-squat.  Keep that number down in the 30% range if you actually want to drive it on the street.  Set you links up for just a tiny bit of roll-understeer.

Dammit! That's what I get for using Hot Rod as a starting point. I've never built a stick-axle suspension before aside from helping redneck buddies with their 4x4s.

The best I can do without major re-fabricating is about 50% (if my CG height back-of-the-envelope calculations are close). I think it'll be ok, there are obviously supporting web pages for just about ANY percentage of anti-squat, so I'll take your word for it. The lower control link geometry after the mods to fix the squat will be very slightly roll-oversteer (as is it already), but it has so little travel that I'm not worried (yet).

Thanks for the sanity check- it's still early enough in the build that I can address this stuff.
-Anton

2x Volvo PV544 (RIP '63) B20 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 143 races and counting.
2/25/24