51 (edited by Marc 2012-06-14 10:00 AM)

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

BoKu wrote:

I think that you are going to have pretty inescapable problems trying to connect a turbine engine to the ground through a $500 crapcan. The free turbine in lieu of torque converter that the Boeing hotrod guy used was pretty much as good as such a thing is going to get.

Trying to get power out of a turbine engine is a challenge under even the best circumstances. The small ones especially are designed to run within limited RPM ranges and limited power output levels. Outside of those ranges they tend to cook turbine blades, and they also encounter harmonic resonances that cause fatigue, cracking, and premature separation of important bits.

If this was my assignment, I think that I would hunt up an old GPU trailer complete with T-62 turbine and generator, and cram the trailer's contents into the car atop the electric motor that drives the transaxle. Then it becomes a wiring problem. What could possibly go wrong?

why do we keep coming back to electric like it's a magic bullet and electric motors weigh nothing?

the T62 based generator seen here: http://www.avonaero.com/T62T32%20gen%20set.htm weighs 950lbs. most of that is the generator head and it only makes 80HP

we would then need a minimum of 200lbs of electric motors and we'd still only put geo sized power down to the ground with what has become a 5000lb car.

i'm not looking for the easy way out. i'm looking for a technical challenge that will be a fun to succeed in.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Leno built a turbine car, maybe they have some info that might help you plan out the best power transmission route?

greatly looking forward to this build. I always thought a turbine engine in an old VW bus would be awesome for Lemons.

14 Time Loser FutilityMotorsport
2008 Saab 9-5Aero Wagon
Retired - 1989 Dodge Daytona Shelby 2011-2015 "Lifetime Award for Lack of Achievement" IOE, 3X I got screwed, Organizer's Choice

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

I was under the impression a 5k generator will propel a EV. Correct me if this is misinformation but isnt the Chevy Volt a 1.0L coupled to a 5.5K Genny?

As for Geo type of power to the ground, electric motors have 100% torque available from 0RPM. HP is not the same from a IC engine, heck I routinely tow cars/trucks around the shop with a 3.5HP electric golf cart, traction seems to be the limiting factor, not HP

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Marc

I've read the MR2/radial blog all the way through and, dude, you're my hero.

I can't help but notice that the right-angle gearbox technique you used for the radial may work perfectly for the turbine if you flip them around.  There's no doubt that the torque pulses will go away and, I'm sure, the gearboxes will be much happier being driven the "right" way. 

The precision and geometry of the teeth probably isn't symmetrical so they'd transfer more torque while driving the pinion gear than the "backwards" way the radial drove them.  Additionally, the bearings will have loads applied to them more in tune with what the designers planned.

Another possibility is to find a bunch of Ford pickup truck axles and replicate the dual 90 deg gearbox plan with Ford 9" parts.  I know the drag racing guys drive them at ridiculous revs with much more torque.  It wouldn't be any closer to the engineering edge than the radial setup.

Good luck, you're an inspiration for us all.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Marc wrote:

why do we keep coming back to electric like it's a magic bullet and electric motors weigh nothing?

I went there because it is one of very few ways to execute the power transactions required with the effectiveness required to make more than a few laps.

Marc wrote:

...the T62 based generator seen here: http://www.avonaero.com/T62T32%20gen%20set.htm weighs 950lbs. most of that is the generator head and it only makes 80HP

I think you will find that a generous overestimate. Based on my experience stripping a GPU trailer for its O-290G, the majority of the mass will be in the chassis, cabinet, ducting, and overbuilt mil-spec bracketry.

...i'm not looking for the easy way out. i'm looking for a technical challenge that will be a fun to succeed in.

Then I'd suggest exploring the idea of building your own free turbine to extract energy from an APU, JFS, or other dinky turbine engine. The important thing is to make a system where the engine runs only within its target RPM band.

Thanks, Bob K.

56 (edited by Mulry 2012-06-14 12:04 PM)

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

How about this. Rig the turbine to a ducted fan. Build a large mast and rigging mechanism in the middle of the car to hold a large sail. Run the turbine and fan at constant speed (facing toward the mast and sail). Since you have a constant windspeed, you control your velocity by adjusting the angle of the sail. 100% efficiency from jet and fan keeps it running in its sweet spot, thus ensuring reliability. Might require a riding mechanic since one person steers the car, the other adjusts the sail.

Problem solved. Unless you want to run at a track with a bridge or trees near the track.

smile Can't say that it's not outside the box though, can you?

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67
https://youtu.be/qmf9JkedPR8

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

mulry, i'm not dignifying that with an answer smile

Team Infinniti wrote:

I was under the impression a 5k generator will propel a EV. Correct me if this is misinformation but isnt the Chevy Volt a 1.0L coupled to a 5.5K Genny?

As for Geo type of power to the ground, electric motors have 100% torque available from 0RPM. HP is not the same from a IC engine, heck I routinely tow cars/trucks around the shop with a 3.5HP electric golf cart, traction seems to be the limiting factor, not HP

the volt has a 1.4L that puts out 149hp and a 55kW electric motor. it's battery is 16.5kWh. if you started with a full battery and drew 80% power from the electric motor (there are corners after all) and you leave 20% SOC in the batteries in the end since you want them to survive the next recharge cycle you're looking at 18minutes of driving. if you charge the battery with a 5kW generator at the same time you'll extend that drive time to about 21minutes.

EVs work because most driving isn't done at full throttle. but if you had 55kW (74HP) at a race track, you'd be 100% throttle for quite a bit of the time. just ask team Lemonade

if you want sustained high speed driving you need high power generation and generators are heavy. also, the EVs use the motor as a generator since they don't need to push while they charge (that's what the gas motor is for) in this case, that weight savings can't be used since you need the motor almost 100% of the time.

a 55kW motor would probably need a 40kW charge rate and a few batteries to race without running out of juice. to get the 40kW charge rate you'd need a 60kW generator and a 100HP motor to drive it.


BoKu wrote:
Marc wrote:

why do we keep coming back to electric like it's a magic bullet and electric motors weigh nothing?

I went there because it is one of very few ways to execute the power transactions required with the effectiveness required to make more than a few laps.

i agree, it certainly has reliability written all over it. the issues are weight and performance

BoKu wrote:
Marc wrote:

...the T62 based generator seen here: http://www.avonaero.com/T62T32%20gen%20set.htm weighs 950lbs. most of that is the generator head and it only makes 80HP

I think you will find that a generous overestimate. Based on my experience stripping a GPU trailer for its O-290G, the majority of the mass will be in the chassis, cabinet, ducting, and overbuilt mil-spec bracketry.

i can't argue that. maybe it looses 1/2 it's weight and now you have a more resonable 500lbs motor that can drive about 60-70hp. certainly enough to make the car not completely annoying to drive. but not enough to get the performance levels i'm looking for.

BoKu wrote:

...i'm not looking for the easy way out. i'm looking for a technical challenge that will be a fun to succeed in.

Then I'd suggest exploring the idea of building your own free turbine to extract energy from an APU, JFS, or other dinky turbine engine. The important thing is to make a system where the engine runs only within its target RPM band.

Thanks, Bob K.

yes, using a pair of JFS-100 jets coupled to high temp air starters would make an easy 170-190hp to the ground and weigh about 300lbs all-in. there would be no reverse gear but otherwise it would be a decent combination of lemony goodness and simplicity. it would also be able to pass quite a bit on the track. without transmission gears the 0-40mph may be slow, but 40-100 should be great.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Marc wrote:

mulry, i'm not dignifying that with an answer smile

LOL. I'm glad it was taken in the spirit in which it was given. That said, you'd probably have the first ever jet-to-sail-power racecar in history. smile

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67
https://youtu.be/qmf9JkedPR8

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

I missed team Lemonades build/run(gotta look them up) and thank you for the math using correct numbers!

Homestead Chump 5th-Sebring 6th-PBIR Lemons 9th - Charlotte Chump  CrashnBurn 9th
Sebring 6th again -NOLA Chump 1st -PBIR Chump Trans Fail 16th
Daytona 11th - Sebring 6th - Atlanta Motor Speedway 2nd - Road Atlanta Trans Fail 61st-Road Atlanta 5th
Daytona 13th - Charlotte 9th - Sebring 2nd-Charlotte 25th broken brakes - Road Atlanta 14 10th-Daytona 14  58th- Humid TT 19th Judges' Choice!

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Team Infinniti wrote:

I missed team Lemonades build/run(gotta look them up) and thank you for the math using correct numbers!

they drive a 55hp geo. gas powered, not electric. but the idea was that sub 100hp cars are very much full throttle almost all the time on the track.

They have awesome drivers and make that geo look good out there.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Marc wrote:

I used to do quite a bit of offroading, I've dealt with many transfer cases and have several in my shop already.

bearing RPM ratings will become the major issue. but if i rework the case slightly, it's not hard to find bearings that can deal with 12,000RPM speeds as long as the oil is kept cool.

also, i just need 3:1, not 4:1 and many transfer cases are 2.7-2.8:1 which will likely be close enough as far as i'm concerned for this.

of course, that's where that Alison 250 turbine would shine. it's output is rated for the turbine's power (which may not be the case with this current one) and it only spins 6000RPM which is perfectly acceptable to shove right into a normal automatic transmission and all that's needed is some logic to actuate a brake on the output to not break the trans when shifting from neutral to drive or reverse.

it might make the turbine more expensive but it may save headaches and much work on the other bits. we'll see...

Ahhh yes,  If you rework the case for better bearings that could make a huge difference.  Seems you already had that part worked out in your head (I should have figured that).

I think the hot air starters sound like the best and most ridiculous/lemony idea.

Or on a somewhat related note, maybe hook the turbine up to an air compressor and use compressed air motors at the wheels?  All the relief valves popping to keep pressures at the desired level  will be noisy as hell, but it should be entertaining.  That and you could run air tools right from the car!  Hell, you'd probably be able to supply the entire track with compressed air.

62 (edited by BoKu 2012-06-15 08:55 AM)

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

After digging into it a bit, I retract my suggestion to use a JFS motor. They are designed for a very sparse duty cycle, and in constant operation probably wouldn't hold together for two laps. The T62, on the other hand, was designed to provide hours and hours of non-stop power.

A friend of mine is an aeronautic engineer who has designed jet engines for NASA. I'll ask him what his approach to fabricating a free turbine and stator ring for such an engine would be.

Thanks, Bob K.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Okay, I had an email exchange with my aero engineer friend.

To paraphrase his reply, turbine engines are pretty closely optimized for how they expect to extract power from them. When designed for shaft output, the turbine is optimized to extract all the power possible from the exhaust, and leave as little energy in the exhaust as it can. That way the turbine can put the maximum amount of power into the shaft, maximizing efficiency. If you try to use an engine like that with a free power turbine, you aren't going to get much power out of it, since the engine is going to try to transmit all of the power into its shaft and out its gearbox. With nothing on the gearbox to extract the power, it's going to rev right up to its RPM limit and bounce around there until it grenades or thresholds and shuts down.

On the other hand, engines designed for free power turbines leave as much power as possible in the exhaust, so the power can be extracted by the free turbine. But as you've found, those engines are generally pricy helicopter motors with high values even as rebuild cores.

What my engineer friend suggests is a CVT such as those found on the Prius, which uses (yup) electric motors and planetary gears to achieve variable output RPM from relatively constant input RPM.

But what occurs to me is that in Lemons we have recently seen the application of a perfectly good CVT that transmitted around 90hp with very little problem. And that was the belt drive used in the snowmobile-powered Miata.

So, maybe something to explore is engaging a snowmobile belt drive with the 6000 rpm output of a 80 hp APU. Feed the other end straight into your differential, and profit! What could possibly go wrong?

Of course, 80hp isn't going to yield neck-snapping acceleration for anything like a one-ton car. But the engine would be light, the transmission would be light, and the power delivery would be very smooth.

However, realize that a small turbine operated anywhere but at its design point is going to be pretty inefficient. I'm guessing that overall you'll be looking at around 1.5 lbs/hr/hp. So if your average draw is 60 hp, you'll be sucking 90 lbs of fuel per hour. I think that diesel fuel runs around 7 lbs/gallon, so you're looking at about 13 gallons per hour.

Thanks, Bob K.

64

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Sounds like that puts you back to the plan on post 1 with the audi cvt

Racing 4 Nickels - 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera
2011 SHOWROOM-SCHLOCK SHOOTOUT  IOE Winner
2012 The Chubba Cheddar Enduro Class C winner
Facebook Page

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

BoKu wrote:

...I think that diesel fuel runs around 7 lbs/gallon, so you're looking at about 13 gallons per hour...

I can verify that is pretty much what the jet-cart's fuel consumption is.  Doesn't matter what it is doing, it eats 13 gallons per hour.  The APU that cart is build around has one operational RPM and the hydrostatic unit controls the power applied to the wheels.  We had a grand plan for getting as much donated motor oil track side as we could.  That APU will run on pretty much anything other than water.

When I suggested fueling it with kittens so we can make rainbow colored exhaust, I had things thrown at me.  The team just doesn't like internet memes apparently.

Apparently my name is really "Craigers".  Who knew?
We might be yellow, but at least we are slow
I'm a WINNER!

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

minor update. after much consideration, i decided the right thing to do is to go for a slightly more expensive turbine.

the 12,000RPM output scares me. when stuff breaks there it won't be delicate like my 1600rpm output breaking from my previous build. plus there are no automotive driveshaft components legitimately rated for 12,000RPM. 4000RPM is easy 6000 takes a bit of planning but still doable and 7000 is about the limit in the spicer catalog.

if i made a reduction box on the output, any miniature misalignement on the bearings or gear faces would add up to stupid amounts of heat in a hurry.

So i'll go for the T63-A-700 turbine instead. it has these following features:
-6000RPM output
-free power turbine
-throttleable in stock form (it looks like you throttle the governor to seek a particular output RPM instead of a desired torque load. it may take some getting used to to drive it)
-power varies quite a bit depending on the exact model, but the cheap ones are 250-350hp it seems. so no modifications needed there.
-exhaust points in a convenient direction already. I'll just extend it upwards above the roofline of the car in the back.
-great fuel economy. converting it to BSFC to compare to automotive, it does about 420g/kWh which is on par with an early 90's turbo 4 that runs rich to keep stuff cool. should turn about 5mpg on the track which is acceptable

you can see a walkaround here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z_WOF_MlBg

the downsides:
-they are still flying so low hour engines aren't available. only high hours "non flight worthy" engines.
-the combustion temp is way up there (1850F) so i suspect the exhaust temps will be quite high but i haven't found the exact numbers yet. i suspect around 1400F from what I've seen with other turbines in this kind of range.
-it may take a bit of time to find one for the right price range (where i don't have to spend much more than i get for the radial engine i'm selling)

the other thing to note is i'm heading out of the country for a bit and this forum won't allow non US addresses to login. so i'll be out of touch for a bit.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

I thought they fixed the foreign IP address issue in the last few months.

A&D: 2011 Autobahn, 2012 Gingerman, 2012 Road America, 2012 Autobahn II, 2013 Gator-O-Rama (True 24!)
Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
2013 Chubba Cheddar Enduro - Organizer's Choice, 2014 Doing Time in Joliet
http://www.facebook.com/#!/SirJackieSte … urseRacing

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Racin_G73 wrote:

I thought they fixed the foreign IP address issue in the last few months.

Maybe Marc is wanting to get lost for a bit following the latest radial madness. smile

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67
https://youtu.be/qmf9JkedPR8

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Wait, what about the snowmobile CVT unit? The guys who did a 2-stroke Miata at Infenion this year ran one. It's a CVT, it ran fine all day at ~10000rpm (so 12k oughtta be enough), and those motors can easily make north of 200hp.  Best part, it weighs almost nothing. Connect it to a diff, and you're set. Oughtta weigh next to nothing.

K Car Stalker

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

1) Turbine engines are built to run at around a sweet spot in RPM and be extremely reliable doing so.

2) Piston engines are built to be revved up and down. They might produce 300hp, but only on the straightaway.

3) A turbine hooked to an electric generator can run at full power all the time, even when you're hard braking into a corner.

You want an engineering problem to figure out? How about a turbine-electric drivetrain than gives you as much power as you can handle so long as the batteries are in a sweet spot of charge? You don't even have to have a full EV set of batteries, just do like the Prius and have enough battery capacity to run about a mile. It's the generator (and your electronics suites') job to maintain the batteries and allow the driver a competitive amount of power.

You won't need a 300hp turbine, just a single heavy duty generator that can handle whatever your throttle allows. A variable maximum voltage input dependent on battery charge would be the trick. Batteries getting too full? Allow more voltage. Batteries getting low? Limit the voltage. I think a 150hp turbine running full-tilt all the time will allow you 300-400 ft/lbs of torque on the track.

Don't sell the electric angle short. It's a lot more efficient and reliable than trying to bring 50,000rpm down to a transmission-friendly level.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Marc wrote:

<snip>

-exhaust points in a convenient direction already. I'll just extend it upwards above the roofline of the car in the back.

<snip>

-the combustion temp is way up there (1850F) so i suspect the exhaust temps will be quite high but i haven't found the exact numbers yet. i suspect around 1400F from what I've seen with other turbines in this kind of range.

Convenient, indeed - looks perfect for a hot dog/marshmallow/side of beef x2 roast !

-Jeff

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Marc wrote:

................-the combustion temp is way up there (1850F) so i suspect the exhaust temps will be quite high but i haven't found the exact numbers yet. i suspect around 1400F from what I've seen with other turbines in this kind of range.
.............

i would suspect much lower EGT's.   if you have 4 stages of turbine, i would think it would extract a lot more energy from the exhaust than that.

Maximum Effort Motorsports - Mid-engine 1979 Chevette - Class C Winner - GP Du Lac Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
New England Long Winter Build Award - 2015
IOE Winner, Loudon Annoying 2011, Judges Choice - Loudon Annoying 2012
Class C & Least Horrible Yank Tank winner - Boston Tow Party & Overhead Cam Bake 2011

73 (edited by Marc 2012-06-19 02:49 PM)

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Racin_G73 wrote:

I thought they fixed the foreign IP address issue in the last few months.

They did! Hi from Brazil smile


firegremlin wrote:

Wait, what about the snowmobile CVT unit? The guys who did a 2-stroke Miata at Infenion this year ran one. It's a CVT, it ran fine all day at ~10000rpm (so 12k oughtta be enough), and those motors can easily make north of 200hp.  Best part, it weighs almost nothing. Connect it to a diff, and you're set. Oughtta weigh next to nothing.

the snowmobile CVT is not entirely out of the question. the weight is very nice and it will take some back and forth to tune it right but it seems relatively cheap to do so. and throwing belts is relatively drama free and easy to fix.

EriktheAwful wrote:

...You want an engineering problem to figure out? How about a turbine-electric drivetrain than gives you as much power as you can handle so long as the batteries are in a sweet spot of charge? You don't even have to have a full EV set of batteries, just do like the Prius and have enough battery capacity to run about a mile. It's the generator (and your electronics suites') job to maintain the batteries and allow the driver a competitive amount of power.

...

Don't sell the electric angle short. It's a lot more efficient and reliable than trying to bring 50,000rpm down to a transmission-friendly level.

Yes, you just need a generator big enough to handle the average horsepower used. can you point me to a reasonably priced & lightweight generator head?


fleming95 wrote:

Convenient, indeed - looks perfect for a hot dog/marshmallow/side of beef x2 roast !

-Jeff

that was an honest thought smile i figured i could use a linear actuator to adjust the height of the rotary spit above the exhaust to keep the energy going into the roast steady regardless of the turbine load smile


mike944 wrote:

i would suspect much lower EGT's.   if you have 4 stages of turbine, i would think it would extract a lot more energy from the exhaust than that.

i have no legitimate information to indicate that exhaust temp. it's jsut a guess and i'd be ecstatic to be wrong. but it does not matter much, i'd get the exhaust out of the car with a nice flange and then measure the temp and sound pressure to figure out what i have to do to it from there.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

just some rough numbers on the average power consumption.

our other Lemons car has a motor that gets a BSFC of about 350g/kWh when you look across the range that it is used on the track. it gets about 10mpg on the track and a peak HP of 180 at the flywheel. we also tend to average about 65mph on the track.

so with those rough numbers in mind, let's calculate average power consumption:

gas = 6.073 lb/US gal



300g/kwh = 0.1089gal/kwh

in an hour we consume 6.5gal

that leaves us with 60kWh per hour or 60kW for our average power need on the track.

60kW = 81hp


wow, that number is pretty depressing, i figured it would be higher. score one point for the electric guys. apparently a 60kW generator would make a decent race car in a light chassis. this chassis is a bit heavier and i want a bit more performance, but let's use that number as a lower bound.

the generator to peak power ratio for us is 41%.

the electric motors are easy to solve, something like the highlander hybrid rear end would work well if i had a pair of them and overvolted them from 70HP to 90HP. about 150lbs

so all i need to make that idea feasible is a lightweight 60kW generator and i just don't see it. the best i can come up with is the Tahoe belt alternator/starter seen here:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/gm-belt-alternator-starter.jpg

it weighs 31lbs / 15kW of generation power.  so 124lbs of generator heads.

now we need batteries, let's say 45seconds of full capacity power. some quick math tells you that the bigger reason for many batteries will be the voltage requirement, not the ultimate capacity. the highlander motors take 288V so 300V is probably a reasonable target.  so we need 25 of the smallest cheap batteries. the smallest cheap battery is about 30lbs, it can be brought down to 1/2 that weight with a bit more spending. so 400lbs by the time you add the brackets & such.

the controller will be at least 50lbs. and the turbine is 100lbs so that puts the whole drivetrain at 824lbs.

there's also the issue of having about $6k wrapped up in that drivetrain.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Marc wrote:
Racin_G73 wrote:

I thought they fixed the foreign IP address issue in the last few months.

They did! Hi from Brazil smile

Hi!  Yeah, that was one of the few drawbacks of my trip to Brazil this January - no Lemons forum!

If you happen to be in the Canoas engine plant or the Caxias truck plant, tell 'em I said hello.

A&D: 2011 Autobahn, 2012 Gingerman, 2012 Road America, 2012 Autobahn II, 2013 Gator-O-Rama (True 24!)
Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
2013 Chubba Cheddar Enduro - Organizer's Choice, 2014 Doing Time in Joliet
http://www.facebook.com/#!/SirJackieSte … urseRacing