1 (edited by Marc 2012-09-05 06:59 PM)

Topic: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

I've got a few ideas on this, but i came across a super simple idea today and i wanted to run it by you guys:

http://www.bangshift.com/forum/showthre … -look-at!/

here's the idea in a nutshell:
http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr84/Toymaker1/Twin%20Engine%20Dragster/100_4840.jpg

keep in mind, i'll be using a CVT so there's no reason i can't enclose the bellhousing and spray oil on the gear mesh surfaces.

2 (edited by jiggermyster 2012-09-06 11:24 AM)

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

Are those aluminum flywheels?
Having seen more than one ring gear come off all on it's own and (try to) saw it's way through the bottom of a boat, I see no fail in this plan. *g*

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

they are steel with double ring gears on each flywheel. he TIG'd them together.

seems crafty but i suspect heat and inapropriate lubrication would do it in. what works for the drag strip is different than a 15hr race.

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

I think this was the typical way they did things back in the 50s, 60s in drag race cars. As was suggested earlier, they were never asked to last more than a few minutes at a time. Couldn't you find some giant pair of gears that aren't pressed onto flywheels? Something cast as all one piece?

Constructor/Owner/Driver - Billy Beer Ford Futura

5 (edited by tikibug 2012-09-11 02:01 PM)

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

If you really want to run both the diesel and the turbine through the same drivetrain why not just use a planetary gear setup like the Prius uses to combine the gas engine and electric motor outputs?

http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/images/PriusGeneric/Technical_5.gif

http://eahart.com/prius/psd/


In the example in the link, MG1 would become your VW diesel, the ICE would become your turbine(s), and you would still need a controllable electric motor as MG2.  Get up to speed normally with the diesel with the turbine sitting still and the electric motor spinning the opposite direction of the diesel.  Once you're ready to turn on the turbine, slow the speed of the electric motor, and then get it spinning in the other direction to turn up the turbine (while holding the diesel at a constant RPM).  Once the turbine's spinning and active, cut the diesel and use the electric motor as your speed controller, varying its rotation while spinning the turbine at a fixed RPM.  If I've got this figured right, you'll be able to eliminate the CVT you're planning on using to boot.

Of course, there's little details to sort out like parasitic losses from the inactive diesel being forced to turn over, or the intricate electronic controls to manage this song and dance, but if it worked you'd essentially have one hell of a ballin' piston/turbine/electric hybrid.

2011 LA - #53 300zx, 10 OA, 3 B
2012 RHoNJ- Guest Outlaw! #115 Parnelli Jones Galaxie; LA - #53 300zx, 15 OA, 5 B; HH #53 300zx KERBLOOIE!!!
2013 TGTN - #53 300zx, 30 OA, 4 B; LA - #86 golf, 32 OA, 7 B

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

I've done a lot of looking at those hybrid transmissions in the past. it did not occur to me to apply it to this. I don't like the idea of using an electric motor but maybe, just maybe you've got a good point. if i don't use an electric motor that can spin backwards to subtract some revs while adding power i might still need to shift to cover a wide enough output speed range. but maybe i can get it in the range of a 2 speed powerglide or something.

essentially, if using planetaries to somehow sum the motors together can give me an output rpm range that can vary from 2000 to 3500RPM or so while keeping the turbine at 100% i could use a regular automatic transmission.

I'll do some thinking and then the hard part will be finding parts to put it together if i can get the math to work out.

i think some of the IVT planetary ideas might come into play here also.

i could definitely use some help on this if someone has expertise.

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

oh and while i'm asking for help, it's hard to ignore the super simple snowmobile CVT.

if you look at snowmobile drag race videos they launch off the line and within a split second they are at the same RPM for the whole run.

they do look like they have about a 3:1 ratio range depending on the exact model. they do technically allow slip to acheive a ratio over 3:1 but that causes heat really quickly so we don't really want to depend on it.

if we run these numbers though the simplest setup but still a worse case scenario: engine only likes RPM changes from 90% to 100%  (it's probably wider, but i just don't know) assume no beneficial CVT slip and assume a desired top speed of 110mph.

for 12,000RPM to equal 110mph @900rev/mile i need a final drive of 7.2:1 let's just assume that we stuff that all in the differential (that's not going to happen, but it keeps this simple and it's just going to be a question of adding a 2nd reduction in front of the diff)

minimum "full power" speed would be 10800rpm turbine with 3:1 at the CVT and the same 7.2:1 diff would be 33mph. this is slow enough to take even really tight hairpins without needing to disengage the turbines.

unfortunately, the car would absolutely suck at getting to 25 or even 30mph. but that's where the pony motor could come in.

let's say i drove a small diesel motor through some normal transmission probably an auto to keep everything simpler. and then the trans output into a box and the box would go to a 3.55 differential out to the wheels.

the box would contain a small ratio and a clutch to couple/decouple the turbines the clutch would simply be controlled by a high/low speed switch (again, oversimple but we can worry about hysteresis later)

the turbine inputs would be from two belt CVT clutches (because it's MUCH cheaper to get two smaller HP CVTs than one that can handle the power from both) but the inability for the driven wheel to drive the drive wheel on that setup would mean i'd need some kind of turbine starter still. not the end of the world.

it's a super simple solution but it's absolutely critical that the belt CVTs maintain a very narrow RPM range. i should contact some of the aftermarket manufacturers of snowmobile clutches and see if anyone is willing to talk about technical specs beyond the intended application.

8 (edited by Marc 2012-09-12 06:51 AM)

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

something else occurred to me on the snowmobile CVT style setup.

let's say i get it all hooked up that way and i end up not being able to tune the RPM in a satisfactory manner. i could just replace the spring/counterweight actuator on the turbine side with a hydraulic or electric servo and then be able to use software to control the ratio of that clutch. and i don't have to worry about having to worry about three engines worth of power through one transmission.

so what do you guys see wrong with this:

diesel engine to a 4wd Audi automatic transmission. weld the center differential solid and use what is normally the rear output to couple the turbine power into with a pair of snowmobile CVTs. start by trying to tune the CVTs to the desired very narrow RPM band but switch to a servo actuated driven clutch if the control isn't accurate enough.

the packaging is still somewhat dicey. the only thing i can think that would simplify the packaging would be to go to a Porsche boxer engine and transmission. but that would require running two fuel tanks. perhaps something i can get an exemption on. managing the exhaust would be MUCH easier if the power coupling device is up front which would be easier with a Porsche drivetrain layout.

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

Marc wrote:

something else occurred to me on the snowmobile CVT style setup.

let's say i get it all hooked up that way and i end up not being able to tune the RPM in a satisfactory manner. i could just replace the spring/counterweight actuator on the turbine side with a hydraulic or electric servo and then be able to use software to control the ratio of that clutch. and i don't have to worry about having to worry about three engines worth of power through one transmission.

so what do you guys see wrong with this:

diesel engine to a 4wd Audi automatic transmission. weld the center differential solid and use what is normally the rear output to couple the turbine power into with a pair of snowmobile CVTs. start by trying to tune the CVTs to the desired very narrow RPM band but switch to a servo actuated driven clutch if the control isn't accurate enough.

the packaging is still somewhat dicey. the only thing i can think that would simplify the packaging would be to go to a Porsche boxer engine and transmission. but that would require running two fuel tanks. perhaps something i can get an exemption on. managing the exhaust would be MUCH easier if the power coupling device is up front which would be easier with a Porsche drivetrain layout.

Thought about it a bit and it seems like it should work at a conceptual level.  I would imagine the Audi CVT has some neutral function that could decouple the diesel from the system when the system when you wanted to run on the turbines, or would you just leave the diesel running the whole time?  I was initially skeptical of essentially driving the car and engine from the wheels (where you're attaching turbines where the rear wheels would attach to the system) and what kind of unintended consequences this would have on the diffs, transmission, engine, but thinking about it I can't come up with any fundamental flaws.  Seems like unifying the throttle controls and sorting out the transition stage will be the biggest headaches.  Well, that and squeezing all this into an MR2 tongue  Any thoughts on starting with a large platform?

2011 LA - #53 300zx, 10 OA, 3 B
2012 RHoNJ- Guest Outlaw! #115 Parnelli Jones Galaxie; LA - #53 300zx, 15 OA, 5 B; HH #53 300zx KERBLOOIE!!!
2013 TGTN - #53 300zx, 30 OA, 4 B; LA - #86 golf, 32 OA, 7 B

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

tikibug wrote:

Thought about it a bit and it seems like it should work at a conceptual level.  I would imagine the Audi CVT has some neutral function that could decouple the diesel from the system when the system when you wanted to run on the turbines, or would you just leave the diesel running the whole time?  I was initially skeptical of essentially driving the car and engine from the wheels (where you're attaching turbines where the rear wheels would attach to the system) and what kind of unintended consequences this would have on the diffs, transmission, engine, but thinking about it I can't come up with any fundamental flaws.  Seems like unifying the throttle controls and sorting out the transition stage will be the biggest headaches.  Well, that and squeezing all this into an MR2 tongue  Any thoughts on starting with a large platform?

I see no reason to ever decouple the piston motor so no worries there. in fact the piston engine should be able to provide engine braking to make up for the momentum of the turbines.

I would be essential driving the wheels directly, but to avoid extra reduction i will sneak in between the output of the transmission and the differential. so the differential is seeing all the load and the trans is only seeing the engine load. in an AWD transaxle if the center diff is welded i should be able to drive additional power into the differential by shoving it through the rear output (or front in porsche's case).

I did also just find out something rather important. The turbine outputs are counterclockwise when looking at the car from the front if the exhaust port is pointed rearward (which is what i'd really like) so i have to find a transmission that drives the correct way for that.

assuming this is really a subaru automatic:
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o53/wrascal/transmission.jpg

if i reverse the ring gear like they do for sand-rail applications everything works perfect with no extra rotation reversals needed. or i could mount it as-is with a mid-engine configuration but i'd need to redirect the exhaust since it would be pointed forward. i suppose i could just go 90degrees to each side of the car and dump out the sides.

I'll shoot Jay & The Evil One an e-mail and ask if a dual fuel solution would even be possible to consider. I'd need gasoline and kerosene/jet fuel/diesel.

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

Marc wrote:

if i reverse the ring gear like they do for sand-rail applications everything works perfect with no extra rotation reversals needed. or i could mount it as-is with a mid-engine configuration but i'd need to redirect the exhaust since it would be pointed forward. i suppose i could just go 90degrees to each side of the car and dump out the sides.

I'll shoot Jay & The Evil One an e-mail and ask if a dual fuel solution would even be possible to consider. I'd need gasoline and kerosene/jet fuel/diesel.

I say leave the turbines facing backwards, and route your intake and exhaust so the whole flow system is in an S shape (intake over the roof running back, loops forward to feed turbine intake, loops backward to remove exhaust and direct it out the back of the car).  Put the turbines outboard and on braking you cut open the exhaust redirect so that the turbine dumps straight forward to atmosphere, and you'll have 200 pounds of reverse thruster!  Or a similar approach with the turbine dumping out the sides, where you allow one turbine or the other to dump straight to the side when cornering.  Bonus points if you rig up afterburners to allow you to implement the new "Line of Fire" blocking maneuver at will.  I'm sure a safety waiver could be had for this big_smile

In seriousness though, I think you had the right idea keeping this all single fuel, you've got enough to finagle here without juggling two separate fueling systems.  And for getting all of this into an MR2, I'm still a fan of trying to run the inputs through one planetary gear system, or do something MRolla-ish and install a whole VW FWD setup in the front as someone else mentioned, with the turbine drivetrain completely separate in the back.  I can't imagine how you would squeeze 3 engines, 3 transmissions (albeit two of them smaller than the third), a full layout of AWD driveshafts (cut much shorter I'm sure), and a moderately substantial fuel tank into the available space of the MR2.  Of course, it would be silly for me to put it past you in light of your previous project, but if I was in your shoes I'd be considering a more spacious platform for that particular implementation.

BTW, I couldn't help but think that a spliced-in Vee-Drive coupling the turbine output to the center prop shaft would somehow sort out your turbine rotation problem...

2011 LA - #53 300zx, 10 OA, 3 B
2012 RHoNJ- Guest Outlaw! #115 Parnelli Jones Galaxie; LA - #53 300zx, 15 OA, 5 B; HH #53 300zx KERBLOOIE!!!
2013 TGTN - #53 300zx, 30 OA, 4 B; LA - #86 golf, 32 OA, 7 B

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

tikibug wrote:
Marc wrote:

if i reverse the ring gear like they do for sand-rail applications everything works perfect with no extra rotation reversals needed. or i could mount it as-is with a mid-engine configuration but i'd need to redirect the exhaust since it would be pointed forward. i suppose i could just go 90degrees to each side of the car and dump out the sides.

I'll shoot Jay & The Evil One an e-mail and ask if a dual fuel solution would even be possible to consider. I'd need gasoline and kerosene/jet fuel/diesel.

I say leave the turbines facing backwards, and route your intake and exhaust so the whole flow system is in an S shape (intake over the roof running back, loops forward to feed turbine intake, loops backward to remove exhaust and direct it out the back of the car).  Put the turbines outboard and on braking you cut open the exhaust redirect so that the turbine dumps straight forward to atmosphere, and you'll have 200 pounds of reverse thruster!  Or a similar approach with the turbine dumping out the sides, where you allow one turbine or the other to dump straight to the side when cornering.  Bonus points if you rig up afterburners to allow you to implement the new "Line of Fire" blocking maneuver at will.  I'm sure a safety waiver could be had for this big_smile

In seriousness though, I think you had the right idea keeping this all single fuel, you've got enough to finagle here without juggling two separate fueling systems.  And for getting all of this into an MR2, I'm still a fan of trying to run the inputs through one planetary gear system, or do something MRolla-ish and install a whole VW FWD setup in the front as someone else mentioned, with the turbine drivetrain completely separate in the back.  I can't imagine how you would squeeze 3 engines, 3 transmissions (albeit two of them smaller than the third), a full layout of AWD driveshafts (cut much shorter I'm sure), and a moderately substantial fuel tank into the available space of the MR2.  Of course, it would be silly for me to put it past you in light of your previous project, but if I was in your shoes I'd be considering a more spacious platform for that particular implementation.

BTW, I couldn't help but think that a spliced-in Vee-Drive coupling the turbine output to the center prop shaft would somehow sort out your turbine rotation problem...

the directional thrusters can wait till i get the whole thing running at all smile plus i'll have to measure the thrust, it may not be much at all.

as for picking a more spacious platform, the MR2 was selected because of it's gigantic engine bay. here's a picture from the last build before it was all packed to give you an idea of it's size:
http://www.frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0088.jpg

with the trunk cut out it's about 55" long and 45" wide. before figuring this out i was looking at old american cars. Lincoln towncars and such. but their engine bays are small when compared to the MR2's. plus I'm not exempt from the exhaust dumping behind the driver rule so i'd have to route two huge pipes to the rear. but with that said, I'm open to suggestions for a different chassis, just name the ones you think might be bigger.

as for one versus two fuels, i agree. if i could get this all running on one fuel i'd be much happier. but i really like the simplicity of using an AWD transmission and no engine adapters. something that just bolts right in.

13 (edited by Marc 2012-09-14 06:38 AM)

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

wow, the perfect super simple solution just struck me.

the rav-4 drive train is a strait bolt-in to the MR2. in fact, it's the same transmission and engine in some combinations. so it takes all the guess work out of mounts and axle shafts. it would all be stock stuff. and if i put the AWD transfer case on it, it gives me an extra input to put power into from the turbines!

it still had the issue of needing the exhaust reversal. maybe i can just do 90degrees and go up with it. that should help with the sound levels anyways.

and to top it off, if i can lean on my european contacts a bit i can get an engine shipped from europe, there is about a dozen bolt-in diesel engines that fits in the spot. the 1AD-FTV makes 126hp and would be perfect!

I'm glad i kept all the stock motor mounts for that car. this seems like it could almost be a reliable drivetrain!

the only annoyance is the road to rear output gear ratio is only 3.08 so i still need about 2.3-2.5 in additional reduction in the system. not the end of the world.

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

can you flip the turbine to fix the exhaust problem AND build your gear reduction/reversal into the adapter?

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Regularly losing in Class A
Soon to start losing in Class C

15 (edited by Marc 2012-09-14 07:10 AM)

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

i could use a pair of gears to get the reduction and reversal, but i was really wanting to use a planetary with a drum clutch as my primary reduction because i need the clutch also. of course, i could dig a bit deeper, if you clutch the planets to the case you get a reduction, clutch and a reversal at the same time.

or maybe it's simpler, i need to feed two turbines into this thing, so maybe i build a box that has 3 gears in it. one that goes to the AWD output and one for each turbine input. i could snag some gears from a dana 300 transfer case and get a 1.62:1 ratio right there. that would leave me with only needing a 1.44:1 reduction. i could do that in front of the CVT to reduce the RPM to a manageable 8300RPM instead of 12,000RPM.

I wonder if there's any reason to use an automatic at all? the turbine throttle controller ECU would be a bit more complicated, but i could make it manage the throttle demand to mask out when the vehicle is shifting so the turbines keep pushing during shifts. a well placed turbine kill switch would be necessary, but trivial to implement.

*edit* actually, not complicated at all, if the throttle drops above a certain rate (deg/s) down to idle just hold the peak position from the last second for up to 1.5seconds. resume normal operation when throttle is re-applied and cut throttle if brake is applied.

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

ha! even simpler turbine throttle control strategy:

a button on the shifter. if the button is held and the brake isn't applied, tubines to 100%. otherwise turbine torque output follows the foot pedal.

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

Marc wrote:

I wonder if there's any reason to use an automatic at all? the turbine throttle controller ECU would be a bit more complicated, but i could make it manage the throttle demand to mask out when the vehicle is shifting so the turbines keep pushing during shifts. a well placed turbine kill switch would be necessary, but trivial to implement.

*edit* actually, not complicated at all, if the throttle drops above a certain rate (deg/s) down to idle just hold the peak position from the last second for up to 1.5seconds. resume normal operation when throttle is re-applied and cut throttle if brake is applied.

Nope no reason at all, now that the turbines have their own transmission.  And the throttle hold is very realizable, my mom's astra did the exact thing you mention on upshifts, holding the engine RPM for a second or so when you let off the throttle.  I'm guessing maybe a switch on the clutch to tell it to do so?  It was a slightly unnerving feeling having the engine still revving mid-shift.

Marc wrote:

ha! even simpler turbine throttle control strategy:
a button on the shifter. if the button is held and the brake isn't applied, tubines to 100%. otherwise turbine torque output follows the foot pedal.

This button must be the biggest red button you can squeeze on the shifter, and simply labelled, "POWAH!"


But what about downshifting?  This is where I see you running into problems with implementing the manual:

-Say when you go to move the shifter for a downshift, do you just have to make sure not to press the button in the process?  I'm guessing the brake clause is to handle just this, but what about schmucks like myself who are inept at heel-toe braking?  It would really suck to get jolted forward in the midst of an aggressive braking/downshifting situation because you accidentally ran the turbines up to 100%.

-Revmatching is the other issue.  Regardless of whether you can heel-toe or not, or whether you just keep off the shifter button, when you go to revmatch the diesel for the next gear down you'll be inadvertently increasing power to the turbines, again causing you to accelerate when you'd really like to be slowing down.

Just some thoughts, I have a feeling these issues can be overcome by some clever means, but the controls will almost certainly need to get quite a bit more complex.

2011 LA - #53 300zx, 10 OA, 3 B
2012 RHoNJ- Guest Outlaw! #115 Parnelli Jones Galaxie; LA - #53 300zx, 15 OA, 5 B; HH #53 300zx KERBLOOIE!!!
2013 TGTN - #53 300zx, 30 OA, 4 B; LA - #86 golf, 32 OA, 7 B

18 (edited by camaroz1985 2012-09-14 10:49 AM)

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

Put your button on the wheel to solve part of that problem.

Ryan

Looks Good On Paper Racing
#314 V8 E30 Submarine

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

camaroz1985 wrote:

Put your button on the wheel to solve part of that problem.

I think he had it on the shifter because you would naturally press it for the handful of seconds it's needed during a shift.  On the wheel would probably be tricky to coordinate.

2011 LA - #53 300zx, 10 OA, 3 B
2012 RHoNJ- Guest Outlaw! #115 Parnelli Jones Galaxie; LA - #53 300zx, 15 OA, 5 B; HH #53 300zx KERBLOOIE!!!
2013 TGTN - #53 300zx, 30 OA, 4 B; LA - #86 golf, 32 OA, 7 B

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

yeah, there are certainly some considerations. but this is the kind of stuff i do for a living (design automotive electronics modules). I'll make sure to put proper analysis and safety interlocks in place to prevent issues.

it's a classic look:
http://www.mustangeleanor.net/data/media/8/Eleanor_Go_Baby_Go.jpg


NOS? no, i have jet power!

21 (edited by Marc 2012-09-14 01:51 PM)

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

heck, the first run might only be actuated as a "push to pass" button. the turbines ramp over a few seconds anyways so it won't be a brutal hookup.

as for quickly rising engine RPMs due to downshifts, that isn't a concern. the turbine RPM after the CVT would be strictly linked to road speed.

http://www.automobilsport.com/upload/superleague-formula-2008/superleague-button.jpg

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

Marc wrote:

heck, the first run might only be actuated as a "push to pass" button. the turbines ramp over a few seconds anyways so it won't be a brutal hookup.

as for quickly rising engine RPMs due to downshifts, that isn't a concern. the turbine RPM after the CVT would be strictly linked to road speed.

http://www.automobilsport.com/upload/superleague-formula-2008/superleague-button.jpg

Nah that wasn't what I was worried about, I was more concerned about when you stab the accelerator to get your diesel RPM to the right spot before reengaging the clutch on a downshift.  Since the pedal is tied to both the turbine and diesel throttle, and the turbines are constantly coupled to the wheels, you'll get unintended acceleration due to your revmatching.  How this would manifest in reality I don't know, could be as minor as an unsettling quirk you can get used to, or it could prove to be a serious safety concern when entering turns under race conditions.  Just something to keep in mind when working out the controls, I'm sure you'll be able to sort it out.

And I was wrong, holding down your shift button while heel-toe downshifting would avoid both problems, assuming that you keep the brake switch tripped throughout.

2011 LA - #53 300zx, 10 OA, 3 B
2012 RHoNJ- Guest Outlaw! #115 Parnelli Jones Galaxie; LA - #53 300zx, 15 OA, 5 B; HH #53 300zx KERBLOOIE!!!
2013 TGTN - #53 300zx, 30 OA, 4 B; LA - #86 golf, 32 OA, 7 B

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

oh, downshift blipping!

hmm, that's a good point, but you could interlock with the clutch for that.  I'll have to come up with good interlocks, and some of it will come down to testing/getting a feel for it.

it's possible the turbines react slow enough that a throttle blip would not even be noticable.

24 (edited by dana_h_acdc 2012-09-14 08:46 PM)

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

THEME!!!!

OMG IT Needs a little red button To light the fires!

http://listas.terra.cl/system/items/000/015/239/medium/10.jpg?1341344096

http://youtu.be/5unKNLcj8P8

Re: how to combine the turbine power with the diesel power

And an Elvis 8-track.

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Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
2013 Chubba Cheddar Enduro - Organizer's Choice, 2014 Doing Time in Joliet
http://www.facebook.com/#!/SirJackieSte … urseRacing