1 Topic by Mulry (edited by Mulry 2014-06-18 06:47 AM)

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Topic: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

The Buttonwillow radio frequency warning threads (here and here) raise a good question, but it's slightly off topic from that one, so I'm going to open this thread up:

If a Lemons team were to desire to obtain the appropriate license(s) to operate a typical car-to-paddock radio setup, what licenses and/or procedures should they undertake? I've tried to walk this path about 4 times over the years but I need a sherpa; the FCC is more difficult to navigate than the IRS and the USPTO combined, and neither of those is exactly a walk in the park.

For the sake of the conversation, suppose that the team wants to get licensed for UHF operations 450-470MHz, they are going to use a number of handheld radios for their essentially non-commercial purpose (since this is for better or worse somewhere between a hobby and an addiction, but certainly not commercially useful, like a plumbing company), and they only need the licenses for discreet areas of operation (racetracks).

I'm assuming that somebody (or multiple somebodys) on this forum has already successfully walked this path. Please be our guide.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

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2 Reply by cpl rampage (edited by cpl rampage 2014-06-18 06:54 AM)

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

The short answer is you need to get your technician class license. Anyone that wants to talk over the radio needs one. When you complete the test and register with the FCC you will get a call sign that you are supposed to use during the call.

http://www.arrl.org/getting-your-technician-license

One of our team mates has his instructors license because he needed it for work. Our team is taking our  technician class exams next week with him. If you go onto the arrl website you can find test locations, as well as study guides. the test is 35 questions and are pulled from a released pool of questions.

That is a far as I have gotten, i will let my team mate know about this thread, maybe he has more to add.

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

Pat,
The first step is to go here (FCC Registration) and get an FRN (FCC Registration Number) if you really want a license (FRS, MURS, & CB do not require a license). Then you have these choices:

GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service) - 15 channels, 7 of which are shared with FRS.
Technically, an FCC license is required to even operate on GMRS frequencies. FCC GMRS Info  These cost $85 and are good for 5 years.  No test is required.  These are the most commonly used channels at Lemons races.

Industrial/Business License AKA PLMR (Private Land Mobile Radio) - Frequencies; VHF 150-174 MHz and UHF 421-470 MHz - 12,5 KHz bandwidth
This is probably what you are thinking about when you consider getting an FCC License.  These radios (when properly licensed) can be used on foot or in vehicles.  This is the complicated and expensive license.  You need to go through a Frequency Coordinator (a private company authorized by the FCC to ensure that businesses & other users aren't stepping all over each other in the spectrum).  If you want to go this path, your best bet is to contact one of these companies and have them walk you through the process.  This is the most expensive option.  Unlicensed radios operating in this spectrum are the ones that are going to be stepping on local law enforcement and first responder frequencies.

FRS (Family Radio Service) - 14 channels, 7 or which are shared with GMRS.
I don't believe licenses are required for these, but power output is limited to 500mw (1/2 watt) and fixed antennas are required. 14 channels, 7 of which are shared with GMRS.  Not very good for Lemons. 

MURS (Multi Use Radio Service) - 5 channels
No license is required for MURS.  Power output is limited to 2 watts.  External antennas are allowed.

CB (Citizens Band) - 40 channels
The big drawback to CBs is the requirement for a long antenna to get any decent kind of signal (so the handnelds kind of suck).  Also, you probably don't want to use channel 24.

tl;dr
Get GMRS radios and deal with the rest of the people on track stepping on your frequency and your driver asking, "What?! What?!" repeatedly and live in fear of the FCC swooping in with directional radio finders so they can throw you in jail.

Hope that helps.

~Van

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

stimpyvan wrote:

Get GMRS radios and deal with the rest of the people on track stepping on your frequency and your driver asking, "What?! What?!" repeatedly OR live in fear of the FCC swooping in with directional radio finders so they can throw you in jail.

FTFY

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

Mike98036 wrote:
stimpyvan wrote:

Get GMRS radios and deal with the rest of the people on track stepping on your frequency and your driver asking, "What?! What?!" repeatedly OR live in fear of the FCC swooping in with directional radio finders so they can throw you in jail.

FTFY

Just to clarify a bit here. The FCC operates under Administrative Law. They don't have the power to incarcerate you. They can only fine you.

BUT if you do something with your radio that crosses over into criminal law such as misdirecting or interfering with life safety services THEN the normal law enforcement folks will lock you up AND the FCC will fine the pants off you.

6 Reply by Mulry (edited by Mulry 2014-06-18 10:49 AM)

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

Question: is the information in Post 2, above, correct -- if we just move into the 420-450MHz range, then all we'd need is a $15 technician license for every driver/radio operator (after they pass the appropriate exam)? This might be easier & cheaper overall than trying to get a PLMR license (and that was the one I was thinking of -- I've even applied for it previously but the application got bounced for reasons involving CFR's and FAR's and PDQ's and LMNOP's that I simply could not understand).

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

Mulry wrote:

Question: is the information in Post 2, above, correct -- if we just move into the 420-450MHz range, then all we'd need is a $15 technician license for every driver/radio operator (after they pass the appropriate exam)? This might be easier & cheaper overall than trying to get a PLMR license (and that was the one I was thinking of -- I've even applied for it previously but the application got bounced for reasons involving CFR's and FAR's and PDQ's and LMNOP's that I simply could not understand).

Using HAM bands is possible if everyone is licensed and you follow proper communication protocol. Even then not all communication types are available on all frequencies. You have to look at the band plan and make sure you aren't causing problems with repeaters or satellite communications.

If you are causing a ruckus HAMs will find you much faster than the FCC ever will.

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

I smell an awesome theme opportunity.

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

TrackGeeks_Chris wrote:
Mulry wrote:

Question: is the information in Post 2, above, correct -- if we just move into the 420-450MHz range, then all we'd need is a $15 technician license for every driver/radio operator (after they pass the appropriate exam)? This might be easier & cheaper overall than trying to get a PLMR license (and that was the one I was thinking of -- I've even applied for it previously but the application got bounced for reasons involving CFR's and FAR's and PDQ's and LMNOP's that I simply could not understand).

Using HAM bands is possible if everyone is licensed and you follow proper communication protocol. Even then not all communication types are available on all frequencies. You have to look at the band plan and make sure you aren't causing problems with repeaters or satellite communications.

If you are causing a ruckus HAMs will find you much faster than the FCC ever will.

Sure. But assuming that you're going to be a responsible adult, the worst that would happen is that you step on a HAM versus stepping on Johnny Law, right? I mean, they could make your life hell (or at least your comms), but it's unlikely that a HAM license comes with the authority to imprison, right?

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

Mulry wrote:
TrackGeeks_Chris wrote:
Mulry wrote:

Question: is the information in Post 2, above, correct -- if we just move into the 420-450MHz range, then all we'd need is a $15 technician license for every driver/radio operator (after they pass the appropriate exam)? This might be easier & cheaper overall than trying to get a PLMR license (and that was the one I was thinking of -- I've even applied for it previously but the application got bounced for reasons involving CFR's and FAR's and PDQ's and LMNOP's that I simply could not understand).

Using HAM bands is possible if everyone is licensed and you follow proper communication protocol. Even then not all communication types are available on all frequencies. You have to look at the band plan and make sure you aren't causing problems with repeaters or satellite communications.

If you are causing a ruckus HAMs will find you much faster than the FCC ever will.

Sure. But assuming that you're going to be a responsible adult, the worst that would happen is that you step on a HAM versus stepping on Johnny Law, right? I mean, they could make your life hell (or at least your comms), but it's unlikely that a HAM license comes with the authority to imprison, right?

Its still FCC which is administrative so the penalties would the the same. The difference is that HAMs can be a bit vigilante and vindictive. They understand that its very unlikely the FCC would catch anyone so they are their own "law".

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

TrackGeeks_Chris wrote:

Its still FCC which is administrative so the penalties would the the same. The difference is that HAMs can be a bit vigilante and vindictive.

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

Thank you for this information. I'll probably look into getting correctly licensed after this race weekend.

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

Mike98036 wrote:
stimpyvan wrote:

Get GMRS radios and deal with the rest of the people on track stepping on your frequency and your driver asking, "What?! What?!" repeatedly OR live in fear of the FCC swooping in with directional radio finders so they can throw you in jail.

FTFY

Thanks, but I did mean "and" because I suspect that most teams using GMRS radios aren't actually licensed to use them.

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

stimpyvan wrote:
Mike98036 wrote:
stimpyvan wrote:

Get GMRS radios and deal with the rest of the people on track stepping on your frequency and your driver asking, "What?! What?!" repeatedly OR live in fear of the FCC swooping in with directional radio finders so they can throw you in jail.

FTFY

Thanks, but I did mean "and" because I suspect that most teams using GMRS radios aren't actually licensed to use them.

Ah. Then belay my last!

Although I highly doubt that the FCC has the resources to pursue every usage of GMRS frequencies, just to check if the operator is properly licensed.  On the other hand, interfere with police/fire/EMS and your risk of swift action (by someone, anyway) increases exponentially.

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

I think is fantastic to see all the new interest in amateur radio. But if you want to use it for racing, please add these considerations.

The # of simplex frequencies (i.e. not tied to a repeater) is very limited in the UHF spectrum.

It's bad form to enable DCS on a HAM frequency because then you won't hear someone trying to call you to tell you you are stepping on them.

You should identify your station at the end of each communication. I know this sounds like a nit, but if a HAM hears you on a HAM frequency and you aren't identifying and they can't contact you, it's a bad thing.

Jim
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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

chicagozer wrote:

I think is fantastic to see all the new interest in amateur radio. But if you want to use it for racing, please add these considerations.

The # of simplex frequencies (i.e. not tied to a repeater) is very limited in the UHF spectrum.

It's bad form to enable DCS on a HAM frequency because then you won't hear someone trying to call you to tell you you are stepping on them.

You should identify your station at the end of each communication. I know this sounds like a nit, but if a HAM hears you on a HAM frequency and you aren't identifying and they can't contact you, it's a bad thing.

Jim
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I wish that any of that made any sense to me at all.

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

Mike Taylor of Hong Norrth is an RF engineer and ham radio freak. I'd say he'd be the guy to ask about this stuff.

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18 Reply by Mike98036 (edited by Mike98036 2014-06-18 03:25 PM)

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

Mulry wrote:

I wish that any of that made any sense to me at all.

Let me see if I can simplify it a little bit...

The # of simplex frequencies (i.e. not tied to a repeater) is very limited in the UHF spectrum.

There are a set number of channels available and LOTS of users; nearly all of them are already being used.  The odds of you picking an empty one are slim.

It's bad form to enable DCS on a HAM frequency because then you won't hear someone trying to call you to tell you you are stepping on them.

DCS is like a privacy setting; only two radios set to the same DCS can hear each other.  Just because you are using DCS, doesn't mean non-DCS users on the same channel can't hear you; you just won't be able to hear them try to complain that you're stepping all over other users (basically, transmitting at the same time, making everyone's tranmissions useless).

You should identify your station at the end of each communication. I know this sounds like a nit, but if a HAM hears you on a HAM frequency and you aren't identifying and they can't contact you, it's a bad thing.

This one's kinda self-explanatory.  It's kinda like saying "over" at the end of a transmission.  Other users on HAM frequencies expect it.

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

Perhaps a very silly question, but does everyone on the team need to hold a GRMS license? I'm betting the answer is yes, but worth the question.

I'm probably getting a GMRS license finally just to reduce some risk.

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

TheEngineer wrote:

Perhaps a very silly question, but does everyone on the team need to hold a GRMS license? I'm betting the answer is yes, but worth the question.

I'm probably getting a GMRS license finally just to reduce some risk.

The rules state that one family member gets the license and it covers the entire family.

We are all brothers and sisters at the track right?? wink

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

What about those that run this range in business band for actual business? I am sure every employee is not licensed.

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

TrackGeeks_Chris wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:

Perhaps a very silly question, but does everyone on the team need to hold a GRMS license? I'm betting the answer is yes, but worth the question.

I'm probably getting a GMRS license finally just to reduce some risk.

The rules state that one family member gets the license and it covers the entire family.

We are all brothers and sisters at the track right?? wink

Well my dad is on the team. I guess I have him covered.

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

Team Infinniti wrote:

What about those that run this range in business band for actual business? I am sure every employee is not licensed.

Correct - business licenses apply to an organization.

GMRS is not a business band - business activity is prohibited on GMRS (though it does go on because people don't know any better).

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

mattp wrote:
Team Infinniti wrote:

What about those that run this range in business band for actual business? I am sure every employee is not licensed.

Correct - business licenses apply to an organization.

Is 24 Hours of Lemons a business?  Could Jay get a license and then we would all be covered for business bands?

One License to rule them all...

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Re: How to Obtain Proper FCC Radio Licenses for Lemony Racing?

jimbo_se-r wrote:
mattp wrote:
Team Infinniti wrote:

What about those that run this range in business band for actual business? I am sure every employee is not licensed.

Correct - business licenses apply to an organization.

Is 24 Hours of Lemons a business?  Could Jay get a license and then we would all be covered for business bands?

One License to rule them all...

LOL. Which is lower: Jay's desire to be Radio Frequency Coordinator or a snowball's chance in hell?

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