Re: Still plugging away

this build is rad!

Mike Peters
Former rotary brat pioneer.
3.17.08 Jalopnik Hoon of the day.  #hasbeen
1984 Dodge Rampage, A few SHO engines, a Mustang 8.8, and a lot of hot glue going on now.

Re: Still plugging away

it is neat but its also completely, utterly, fully, entirely, definately the complete opposite way i would have built it, first off i would have kept the 3cly 2 stroke, soup it up or at least install a modern 2 stroke. but thats me

28 (edited by JThw8 2010-04-06 04:41 AM)

Re: Still plugging away

vwdmc16 wrote:

it is neat but its also completely, utterly, fully, entirely, definately the complete opposite way i would have built it, first off i would have kept the 3cly 2 stroke, soup it up or at least install a modern 2 stroke. but thats me

But to what end?  To attempt to preserve some of the car's originality?  What about brakes?  The car had none and good luck getting parts.  How about suspension? The rear leaf spring was quite literally rusted through and failure was imminent. 

Its a domino effect, to fix what was broken you have to modify (unless you know of a source for Wartburg parts in the US), to modify one system you have to modify others. In for a penny, in for a pound as the saying goes, if you're going to modify, then be serious about it.   To go through all that and retain the 3 cyl just because its quirky?  Quirky is cool, for a cruiser, show car, trailer queen, etc.  On a 3000 mile roadtrip quirky is a plan to fail.  If it all goes tits up on Lemons hey at worst, you've got the trailer, you've got beer, you are all set to kick back at best you've spent the weekend being a rolling roadblock.  If it goes tits up in BFE West Virginia while on the BABE rally you are hosed.  We've been in some areas and on some roads that you would be waiting hours for a tow truck and even once you get a tow then what?  Pop down to Autozone for a new set of bearings for a Wartburg motor?  Nothing against you Lemons types but I still think yer kinda weak wink  $500 crapcans in a conrolled environment, meh, put it on a cross country road trip and learn to suffer for real wink  (yeah, that's a buncha smack talk trying to intice you to give the BABE rally a try too, if your beater survives that it should be ready for Lemons)

I respect the originality of cars, most folks know by now I would have prefered to restore this car.  But that would have been an insult to the organizers of the contest as well as the gentlemen who donated the car because they wanted to see something crazy done with it.  Since I couldnt respect the car by giving it a full restoration then I felt if it was going to be "bastardized" it should be done in a completely over the top insane way.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Still plugging away

TheHeckler wrote:

I love your adaptation of the steering rack to handle the longer lower arms.

x2

The only question I have is what keeps the angle from rotating under the bolts at each end of the rack?  I understand the rack itself won't rotate but I'm not seeing much to keep the wheels from going toe-in and pushing the angle up and around the rack.  What am I missing?

Still, gonna file that trick away.  Great work on the car!

Nick

Nick
Focke Ewe racing -> Muttonheads! Racing -> Torque Junkies
86ish VW GTI...now with TDI Powah!

Re: Still plugging away

zebrabeefj40 wrote:
TheHeckler wrote:

I love your adaptation of the steering rack to handle the longer lower arms.

x2

The only question I have is what keeps the angle from rotating under the bolts at each end of the rack?  I understand the rack itself won't rotate but I'm not seeing much to keep the wheels from going toe-in and pushing the angle up and around the rack.  What am I missing?

Still, gonna file that trick away.  Great work on the car!

Nick

You are not missing anything, its an astute observation. 

Plan A was to drill the ends and insert a roll pin.  haahahahahahahah....<that's the steel in the steering rack laughing at my drill bits.
Plan B is to instal a guide in the center to keep it from moving. I just havent finished that up yet.  Also not shown in that photo are corner gussets on the bar and a reinforcement bar in the center to prevent any flexing of the bar under pressure, not relavant to your question but others may have questions about those aspects so I thought I'd toss that in.

In reality the downward movment is already limited.  And with the end bolts torqued down I can lift the whole front end by the center bar without it moving but an upper guild will be good for a little peace of mind.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Still plugging away

JThw8 wrote:

But to what end?  To attempt to preserve some of the car's originality?  What about brakes?  The car had none and good luck getting parts.  How about suspension? The rear leaf spring was quite literally rusted through and failure was imminent. ...

.

I would have kept the 2 stoke idea, yeah its not the best competion idea, but what else has that?! its just a orginal feature id keep. it could be made reliable, forget stock parts, replacments would be custom made or adapted parts. if i were to do a long rally race like you are then yeah id go with a modern watercooled engine, something reliable, modern, powerful etc.

yeah the OG suspension was a joke/danger, but volkswagen IRS would not be on my list, im an ACVW guy but i dont care for their suspension nor choose rear engine first for a racing car . go with a modern double a arm suspension and front or mid engine. But what do i know, i do own a '72 ghia nd a '81 delorean both rear engine cars and yes im making them track cars.

im just saying its not how id do it, dont let me stop you, believe me i have a lemons/race project that is stupid and sensless and has way too many hours into and left to finish, its probably not the way you would do it but i did. i hope to finish Black Ops soon, so it can be revealed to the public eye...... that is all.

Re: Still plugging away

vwdmc16 wrote:

yeah the OG suspension was a joke/danger, but volkswagen IRS would not be on my list, im an ACVW guy but i dont care for their suspension nor choose rear engine first for a racing car . go with a modern double a arm suspension and front or mid engine. But what do i know, i do own a '72 ghia nd a '81 delorean both rear engine cars and yes im making them track cars.

Agreed neither rear engine or VW IRS are optimal but fit well within the constraints of our challenge.
9 months to build something like this you look for shortcuts smile  A fully packaged rear suspsension and transaxle all in one is a great shortcut.

Its also very possible to ditch the torsion bars and move to coil overs with the setup although I dont think time or budget will permit at this point.

I would have prefered to flip the trans for a mid engine setup but again it just came down to time and budget.

My teammates keep jamming wider rubber under the rear and praying for traction, I keep reminding them that no amount of tire will make up for driving skill....but we dont have driving skill so I guess its a start smile

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Still plugging away

JThw8 wrote:
zebrabeefj40 wrote:
TheHeckler wrote:

I love your adaptation of the steering rack to handle the longer lower arms.

x2

The only question I have is what keeps the angle from rotating under the bolts at each end of the rack?  I understand the rack itself won't rotate but I'm not seeing much to keep the wheels from going toe-in and pushing the angle up and around the rack.  What am I missing?

Still, gonna file that trick away.  Great work on the car!

Nick

You are not missing anything, its an astute observation. 

Plan A was to drill the ends and insert a roll pin.  haahahahahahahah....<that's the steel in the steering rack laughing at my drill bits.
Plan B is to instal a guide in the center to keep it from moving. I just havent finished that up yet.  Also not shown in that photo are corner gussets on the bar and a reinforcement bar in the center to prevent any flexing of the bar under pressure, not relavant to your question but others may have questions about those aspects so I thought I'd toss that in.

In reality the downward movment is already limited.  And with the end bolts torqued down I can lift the whole front end by the center bar without it moving but an upper guild will be good for a little peace of mind.

Thanks for explaining what you have going on there.  One thought I had:  are there any wrench flats on the rack you could engage with some tabs welded to your angle?  Or maybe just grind a couple flats into the rack yourself.

Keep up the good work!

Nick

Nick
Focke Ewe racing -> Muttonheads! Racing -> Torque Junkies
86ish VW GTI...now with TDI Powah!

Re: Still plugging away

zebrabeefj40 wrote:
JThw8 wrote:
zebrabeefj40 wrote:

x2

The only question I have is what keeps the angle from rotating under the bolts at each end of the rack?  I understand the rack itself won't rotate but I'm not seeing much to keep the wheels from going toe-in and pushing the angle up and around the rack.  What am I missing?

Still, gonna file that trick away.  Great work on the car!

Nick

You are not missing anything, its an astute observation. 

Plan A was to drill the ends and insert a roll pin.  haahahahahahahah....<that's the steel in the steering rack laughing at my drill bits.
Plan B is to instal a guide in the center to keep it from moving. I just havent finished that up yet.  Also not shown in that photo are corner gussets on the bar and a reinforcement bar in the center to prevent any flexing of the bar under pressure, not relavant to your question but others may have questions about those aspects so I thought I'd toss that in.

In reality the downward movment is already limited.  And with the end bolts torqued down I can lift the whole front end by the center bar without it moving but an upper guild will be good for a little peace of mind.

Thanks for explaining what you have going on there.  One thought I had:  are there any wrench flats on the rack you could engage with some tabs welded to your angle?  Or maybe just grind a couple flats into the rack yourself.

Keep up the good work!

Nick

Im still mulling over that possibility, there is a keyway in the rack that would work, but the angle doesnt connect directly to the rack, there is a spacer disk in there that holds the boot in place too, so it becomes a little puzzle to get it all lined up and correct.  Add to that the disk is threaded along with the rack and you can see how if they are out of alignment but held together by a tab you're gonna have trouble getting that bolt in.  It's still something I want to look at but I have so much bulk work left to do that Im saving things like that for a quiet moment when my head doesnt hurt so much smile

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Still plugging away

JThw8 wrote:

I keep reminding them that no amount of tire will make up for driving skill....but we dont have driving skill so I guess its a start smile

HA i like that!

Re: Still plugging away

In progress news, over the last 2 nights I have shortened the steering column by a total of 10 inches, fabricated new mounts to mount it in the car and fabbed up the link between the column and the steering rack.  Just needs final assembly and I can *finaly* check steering off my list.  Steering has, by far, been the biggest head scratcher/stress point/time consumer of this project so I'll be happy to move on.  Still need, fuel, electrical, cooling, a cage and bodywork (no not the pretty kind, the filling holes in firewalls and making the body fit over the wheels kind so kinda mandatory stuff) and some finish work on the brakes....still have a whole 7 weeks or so...plenty of time....AAAAAGGGHHHHH.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Still plugging away

'nother long day in the shop.  I finished all the fab work on the steering linkage and column mounts during the week so I stared with the install and test.  I was a bit concerned with the manual rack and big old porsche meats it was going to be a struggle but it turns lock to lock with one hand nice and easy....sweet.

Next up...
I started the day with a bad feeling this "simple" project would take me all day. Sadly I was right, but its mostly done now and that's the important part. Boxed in the pedals, too many angles...not fun.
http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com/images/pedalbox2.jpg

Also had a scrap, parts car guy show up for the subie carcass and wooohooo, he bought it for what I had into it....so we have recouped that POS to zero.  He was so excited to get it I think he either had another subie waiting on the parts or a buyer for the parts because honestly I think he overpaid but hey, Im not complaining.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Still plugging away

You've gone way beyond Lemons with this project, but in a good way.. More like monster garage.... After this I'm not even going to try something creative!

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

Re: Still plugging away

Spinnetti wrote:

You've gone way beyond Lemons with this project, but in a good way.. More like monster garage.... After this I'm not even going to try something creative!

I agree, but I really felt this car deserved something special.

I promise when we return with the MG it will be a cobbled together hunk of shite.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

40 (edited by JThw8 2010-04-11 04:15 PM)

Re: Still plugging away

As you may have noticed in the body on photos we had to take a large chunk out of the floor to fit our new center tunnel where there wasn't one before.  So today's task was to get it all buttoned back up.
To start with, before our sacrificial subaru left yesterday it had one more bit to give.

We took her roof for lots of free sheetmetal.
http://d12473838.serv160.ixwebhosting.com/images/donormetal.jpg
So first the basic layout
http://d12473838.serv160.ixwebhosting.com/images/gettingstarted.jpg
Then lots of marking and bending
http://d12473838.serv160.ixwebhosting.com/images/tunnelinprogress.jpg
And finally all welded in place
http://d12473838.serv160.ixwebhosting.com/images/tunneldone.jpg

This was all done with hand shears, a drill and an old 4x4 for bending over.  You don't need fancy tools (but boy do I wish I had them)

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Still plugging away

JThw8 wrote:

As you may have noticed in the body on photos we had to take a large chunk out of the floor to fit our new center tunnel where there wasn't one before.  So today's task was to get it all buttoned back up.
To start with, before our sacrificial subaru left yesterday it had one more bit to give.

We took her roof for lots of free sheetmetal.


This was all done with hand shears, a drill and an old 4x4 for bending over.  You don't need fancy tools (but boy do I wish I had them)

Very impressive.... I'd love to be involved in those shenannigans, but alas, too far, too many other distractions...

Eventually I want to do something crazy, but not for Lemons... thinking an old ChevyII or Nova (64'ish) shell on a supra turbo unibody..... or something equivalent... Once my LS400 is done with Lemons, I'll have to use that driveline for something!

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

Re: Still plugging away

Spinnetti wrote:
JThw8 wrote:

As you may have noticed in the body on photos we had to take a large chunk out of the floor to fit our new center tunnel where there wasn't one before.  So today's task was to get it all buttoned back up.
To start with, before our sacrificial subaru left yesterday it had one more bit to give.

We took her roof for lots of free sheetmetal.


This was all done with hand shears, a drill and an old 4x4 for bending over.  You don't need fancy tools (but boy do I wish I had them)

Very impressive.... I'd love to be involved in those shenannigans, but alas, too far, too many other distractions...

Eventually I want to do something crazy, but not for Lemons... thinking an old ChevyII or Nova (64'ish) shell on a supra turbo unibody..... or something equivalent... Once my LS400 is done with Lemons, I'll have to use that driveline for something!

I'd love to have the help!  My team is a great bunch and everyone is doing their part for sure but I've been stuck with fabrication, not that I have a skill for it, Im just stupid enough to try it.

This is by far the craziest thing I've ever built and the most fabrication and customization I've done.  Like you I've always wanted to build something crazy and just really push my limits.  I dont know if its the deadline, or the car itself or what but Im really driven on this one.  I've had many failed starts on some truly wild cars, this one will get done (maybe not in time, but I will finish it)

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Still plugging away

Awesome, Jim.  And a few years ago I went out and bought a brake and it just gets in the way half the time.  Granted I'm not usually forming up a transmission tunnel from scrap, but the best sheet metal tool I've bought was one of those little hand brakes made by Wiss.  I use that way more than the benchtop brake.

Quad4 CRX - Wartburg 311 - Civic Wagovan - Parnelli Jones Galaxie - LS400 - Lancia MR2 - Boat - Sentra - 56 Ford Victoria
Known Associate of 3pedal Mafia, Speedycop, and the Russians.  Maybe even NSF.

Re: Still plugging away

As a matter of fact I did use the little Wiss tool to firm the mounting flanges

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Still plugging away

Ok, so when we cut off the rear of the frame to make room for a transaxle we lost the rear body mounts.  Lucky for us the VW torsion housing has some mount points built in.  We welded 1 inch bar stock to the fender wells where it ran over the mount and placed some mount material (hockey puck) between the bar and the mount then bolted it down.
http://d12473838.serv160.ixwebhosting.com/images/bodymount.jpg
This was done a few weeks ago, so in my effort to button up all the holes I made cover plates tonite, these were "designed" to also add some addtional support to the mount.
http://d12473838.serv160.ixwebhosting.com/images/bodymountcovered.jpg

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Still plugging away

jim  your  lemon  neighbor  sinical racing    wanted to  pick your  brain  again     email me @  ffolcher@aol.com  thanks andrew

Re: Still plugging away

JThw8 wrote:

Ok, so when we cut off the rear of the frame to make room for a transaxle we lost the rear body mounts.  Lucky for us the VW torsion housing has some mount points built in.  We welded 1 inch bar stock to the fender wells where it ran over the mount and placed some mount material (hockey puck) between the bar and the mount then bolted it down.
http://d12473838.serv160.ixwebhosting.c … ymount.jpg
This was done a few weeks ago, so in my effort to button up all the holes I made cover plates tonite, these were "designed" to also add some addtional support to the mount.
http://d12473838.serv160.ixwebhosting.c … overed.jpg

you're having entirely too much fun with that rib-making tool...  :-)

Jamie Palmer  tr6driver@yahoo.com
Austin Powerless Racing  '75 Austin Marina, 44th/IOE Summit Point '13, 35th/1st Class C CMP Fall '13, 23rd/3rd Class C CMP Spring '14, 83rd/14th Class C CMP Fall '14 (blown engine/swapped mid-race to finish), 3rd Class C CMP Spring '15, 2nd Class C CMP Fall '15
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Austin-Po … 3187341573

Re: Still plugging away

tr6driver wrote:
JThw8 wrote:

Ok, so when we cut off the rear of the frame to make room for a transaxle we lost the rear body mounts.  Lucky for us the VW torsion housing has some mount points built in.  We welded 1 inch bar stock to the fender wells where it ran over the mount and placed some mount material (hockey puck) between the bar and the mount then bolted it down.
http://d12473838.serv160.ixwebhosting.c … ymount.jpg
This was done a few weeks ago, so in my effort to button up all the holes I made cover plates tonite, these were "designed" to also add some addtional support to the mount.
http://d12473838.serv160.ixwebhosting.c … overed.jpg

you're having entirely too much fun with that rib-making tool...  :-)

Indeed, it makes my sub par hack jobs look *almost* good.

Actually the real point to bead rolling is to add strength to a flat panel and those little side panels help support the body mount to the added strength was needed.

But it is a fun little tool and I might as well try to get some use out of it, cause after this car I may take a looooong break from this stuff.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Still plugging away

Just a quick update again.  Finally finished of the guide for the steering bar to keep it from pivoting on the end points.  Not real pretty but I have to make things functional at this point and go back for pretty later.
http://d12473838.serv160.ixwebhosting.com/images/steeringguide.jpg

Starting on the body mockup and waiting for the cage guy to fit me in.  Hopefully working on the cooling system this weekend then its in my teammates hands for fuel and electrical.

Its getting there, but it's going to be close.

http://wartburg.misfittoysracing.com
OTTER: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part."
BLUTO: "We're just the guys to do it."

Re: Still plugging away

JThw8 wrote:

Just a quick update again.  Finally finished of the guide for the steering bar to keep it from pivoting on the end points.  Not real pretty but I have to make things functional at this point and go back for pretty later.
http://d12473838.serv160.ixwebhosting.c … gguide.jpg

Starting on the body mockup and waiting for the cage guy to fit me in.  Hopefully working on the cooling system this weekend then its in my teammates hands for fuel and electrical.

Its getting there, but it's going to be close.

Those Rabbit A arms?

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.