Topic: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

Hi:
While I'm pretty much married to a 5.0L engine for our Lemons car for now, I was thinking this morning about what engines would make a project car interesting to drive (vs. appeal to the judges sense of audacity) AND somewhat affordable (in terms of replacement spares). If you folks HAD to swap in a turbo or supercharged engine (vs ghettocharging what your car already came with) for a Lemons or budget build project, what would you use? I'm also assuming that you are considering a more involved swap than swapping in the turbo/SC engine from a fancier version of your project car (example: SuperCoupe engine swap => Tbird chassis or MR2 turbo => MR2 chassis)

If you did swap a turbo engine into your Lemons car, why did you pick that particular combination?

Any thoughts here on these engines? I'm assuming of course that for a project car you'd grab the engine+ECU+harness and maybe the transmission if there was some sort of electronic control or it didn't readily mate with your chassis's transmission. I also approaching this daydream thinking this would be swapped into a Front engined, RWD vehicle.

Q: What else would you consider?

My Top Four
Volvo 4cyl Turbo:  plentiful in junkyards. Can be mounted longitudinally so RWD swaps should be more easily doable (right?). Not sure about parts costs
Ford 3.8L SC Mustang/Tbird: Donor cars can still be had for cheap.
GM 3800 SC from Buicks/Olds/Grannies: Donor cars can still be had for cheap. Not sure how easy it would be to swap in b/c of it's transverse mounting. Any manual options?
Ford 2.3T : donor cars can still be had but from my experience selling off an old Tbird 2.3T ECU, I'm willing to be that these are drying up b/c of the cult following. What say you?

Worth Considering
Saab 2.0T:  tons in junkyards. A friend had one and said that the build quality on the direct ignition cassettes made it an oft replaced part. Are parts cheap?
VW 1.8T/2.0T: they make a lot of power but I'm sure parts are expensive (based on my experience owning a Audi 2.7T


Engines that are Probably Too Expensive (for Lemons at least)
Nissan SR20DET: sure, you can get them from Japan but that supply has to be dwindling now as those case were pulled from the streets. Also drift monkeys probably push up the demand.
Nissan RB26DETT: All blocks are imported. No junkyard will have them. I've read that some parts can be crossed with domestic US Nissans but parts costs HAVE to be higher. Also, drift monkeys.
Mazda 13B swap: Rotaries may be lightweight but I'm not sure their lack of torque and high parts costs make this a viable swap into a random project for anything but the most serious rotary faan.
Audi 2.7T: uhm. no.

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

Since turbocharged engines explode (or just overheat and blow head gaskets) with depressing frequency in Lemons, engine cost and junkyard availability should be at the top of your list. I think the best approach might be to find a very common/cheap engine and then ghettocharge it using Eyesore Racing's techniques and a junkyard-common turbocharger.

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

vw td or tdi, adapter to yota trans. dominate.

dead rabbit society: cultured 'n shit.

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

Rust in the Wind has had good life expectancy with their Saab Red Top from a 9000 series.  In the NorthEast their are tons of these or at least their used to be. 

240 hp with their best Saab 2.0L Turbo add a few trick parts and 300 is easy but as Phil mentioned their reliabilty goes down hill as you mod them.

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

Volvo turbo 4, also the Volvo turbo 5 May be worthy of consideration. Don't know about RWD installs of same. Would stay away from the audi turbo anything...

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6 (edited by Brett85p 2015-01-29 11:25 AM)

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

GM 4 cyl Ecotec is an option, they are cheap and plentiful from all manner of GM related vehicles from 2004 to the present day. I payed $84 at pick and pull for a 2.2 Ecotec out of a 2004 Cavalier on half price day. HP ranges from 150 to 250 if you step up to a 2.4 and there are plenty of factory turbo and supercharger options. The supercharges from cobalts are a bit spendy for Lemons but the turbo setup on a 2.0 Saab (also a GM ecotech block) will bolt on without much drama and the internet fanboys say you can easily push 300 hp in a standard engine. These are reasonably well designed, all aluminum engines that can be had for Lemons money all day long.

Most are FWD but the Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky used these engines in a RWD config so there are bellhousings available for the AR-5 transmission also found in Chevy Colorado. There are also Ecotech to T5 aftermarket bellhousings available.

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
24x Loser with the Celica. 16x loser in other fine machines
Overall winner Gingerman 2019

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

PT Cruiser Touring editions had turbo 4s that it shared with the Neon SRT4s.  That motor in NA form was also used in Jeep Liberties, which came in 2WD (good luck finding a 2WD manual trans).  This would give you near unlimited engines, but spare transmissions would be the weak point depending on how heavy the car is, and how fast the transmission hits it's instantaneous explosive disassembly point pushing it around the track.

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

Firebelly wrote:

PT Cruiser Touring editions had turbo 4s that it shared with the Neon SRT4s.  That motor in NA form was also used in Jeep Liberties, which came in 2WD (good luck finding a 2WD manual trans).  This would give you near unlimited engines, but spare transmissions would be the weak point depending on how heavy the car is, and how fast the transmission hits it's instantaneous explosive disassembly point pushing it around the track.

Some of the Jeep bellhousings bolt up to W series Toyota transmissions and a W58 is a nice strong trans....

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
24x Loser with the Celica. 16x loser in other fine machines
Overall winner Gingerman 2019

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

OM617
Factory turbo. Good fuel economy. 240d manual transmission bolts up. 120hp/170ftlbs. And it only weighs 700lbs dry. I may be a bit biased though.

Planet Express
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10 (edited by therood 2015-01-29 04:37 PM)

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

The original list is good. I'd add the Mazda B-family of engines; the fairly rare B6T was in the Mercury Capri XR2 and made 130 horsepower, but the general word is that the stock internals of the normally aspirated B-series engines (obtainable in various forms the Miata, the Escort GT, a whole bunch of cars...see the link) can take a healthy dose of boost from a non-original TRUBO. From what I can tell (mostly based on Eyesore's experiences), running 175 horsepower or so with that engine gives a pretty solid mix of power and efficiency.

Whatever turbos they put in the Saabs seem to be reliable enough of their own accord; might be worth looking into.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

Q: On the 4cyl Ecotec and the 4cyl Chrysler turbo engines, are there any material differences between the N/A and Turbo/SC blocks?

I know with the Tbird 3.8L "Essex" V6, the N/A versions were externally balanced to 40oz and had cast crank/connecting rods while the equivalent SC engines from the Supercoupes were (except for the first model year) internally balanced and had forged internals plus thicker head castings and a slightly lower compression. You could take the intake manifold & SC bits and throw them on a N/A block but putting that kind of engine into an endurance race is kind of playing with fire.

-g

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4

12 (edited by Brett85p 2015-01-30 08:42 AM)

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

gunn wrote:

Q: On the 4cyl Ecotec and the 4cyl Chrysler turbo engines, are there any material differences between the N/A and Turbo/SC blocks?

I know with the Tbird 3.8L "Essex" V6, the N/A versions were externally balanced to 40oz and had cast crank/connecting rods while the equivalent SC engines from the Supercoupes were (except for the first model year) internally balanced and had forged internals plus thicker head castings and a slightly lower compression. You could take the intake manifold & SC bits and throw them on a N/A block but putting that kind of engine into an endurance race is kind of playing with fire.

-g

From Wikipedia describing the SAAb turbo version of the GM Ecotec.

"LK9 is a turbocharged 2.0 L— 1,998 cc (121.9 cu in)—version of the L850 (86 mm bore) series ECOTEC utilizing an all new reinforced sand cast aluminum cylinder head and reinforced internal components. This version of the engine also has Saab's Direct Ignition system and in Saab vehicles features Saab's Trionic 8 engine management system as well as a revised valve train. The timing chain and timing gears are also new. The reinforcements, turbocharging, internals and such were developed by GM Powertrain Sweden. It features an 86 millimetres (3.4 in) bore and stroke and a 9.5:1 compression ratio. Power is 210 horsepower (160 kW) at 5300 rpm and 221 lb·ft (300 N·m) of torque at 2500 rpm. Maximum boost is 12.3 psi (0.85 bar)."

That is all well and good but the Turbo exhaust manifold will bolt onto any 2.2 or 2.4 ecotec and the basic block is the same these are cheaper and more plentiful in junkyards.
I have both sitting side by side in my garage right now smile

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
24x Loser with the Celica. 16x loser in other fine machines
Overall winner Gingerman 2019

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

Any thoughts on the Chrysler 2.2L Turbo engine from the 80s?


What about the 4G63 1997cc found in the 2nd gen Eclipse GS-Ts that were the rage with the ricer crowd? While I know those engines made big powah back in the day, I'm willing to bet that diehards keep the price of these engines up just like with the SR20DET. It looks like there are plenty on eBay but IMO, not exactly for lemony money.
-g

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4

14 (edited by therood 2015-01-30 12:07 PM)

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

gunn wrote:

Any thoughts on the Chrysler 2.2L Turbo engine from the 80s?

It should be like the K-Car's original engine but faster. And by "faster," I mean how "the pace at which it created engine externals."

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

therood wrote:
gunn wrote:

Any thoughts on the Chrysler 2.2L Turbo engine from the 80s?

It should be like the K-Car's original engine but faster. And by "faster," I mean how "the pace at which it created engine externals."

Hah.

This guy throws out some hate for the 2.2L T because the turbo exacerbated the cooling issues of that engine. It's even more amusing to read the replies when the Chrysler Caliphate jumps in to defend their "good but not great" engine.
http://www.cheersandgears.com/topic/787 … l-turbo-i/

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

Poor Mitsu 4G63T. Gets no respect these days. Earlier (90-94) 6-bolt crank is the one you want. Transverse and kinda tall, but very strong bottom end and 250hp doesn't bother it. Just needs lots cooling and good oil supply.

Not the cheapest or most reliable choice, but you can make gobs of power and would have plenty of aftermarket support.

Bert One - 1981 Volvo 262c Bertone | Ernie - 1990 Nissan 240SX

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

skivittlerjimb wrote:

Poor Mitsu 4G63T. Gets no respect these days. Earlier (90-94) 6-bolt crank is the one you want. Transverse and kinda tall, but very strong bottom end and 250hp doesn't bother it. Just needs lots cooling and good oil supply.

Not the cheapest or most reliable choice, but you can make gobs of power and would have plenty of aftermarket support.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I can tell, these bellhousing adapters are actually somewhat reasonable and would allow you to use the 4G63T mounting longitudinally in a RWD application. The alternative would be to mod a AWD evo transmission to block off the front axle ports.
http://www.billsautofab.com/recent_mit.asp

$350+ship for a 463T to Toyota W-Series trans
a little more for a GM350, T56 or R-154 supra trans adapter.

Myopic Motorsport's #888 Ceci n'est pas une Citron Thunderbird ("This is not a lemon" but a 1995 tbird w/ 93 V8 swap + shopping cart rear wing + engine mounted frito maker)
2017 Sears Pointless Organizer’s Choice
Frito Making Tbird from 2018 Sears Pointless Engine Heat BBQ - http://goo.gl/csaet4

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

A friend of mine had one swapped into a '91 BMW 318i. Not sure but almost certain he used the BMW transmission. Also pretty sure the 4G64 (2.4 NA) was mounted longitudinally in the old Mighty Max pickup trucks.

Bert One - 1981 Volvo 262c Bertone | Ernie - 1990 Nissan 240SX

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

The NA 2.0 was in the trucks too.

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

therood wrote:

<snip>

Whatever turbos they put in the Saabs seem to be reliable enough of their own Accord; might be worth looking into.

<slight threadjack>

. . . I see what you did there. . . .  brilliant!

But here's whatcha oughta do if you're really into the 'ill-advised swaps':   I know there's a trophy in there somewhere!

You need two cars for the swap, right?  One donor, one donee?

But then you have an extra shell, and an extra engine, right?  And the job's only half done; you have to clean up the yard anyway, so:


1.  Buy turbocharged Saab .
2.  Buy turbocharged Volvo.
3.  Put Saab engine in Volvo.
4.  Put Volvo engine in Saab.
5.. (optional) Call yourselves the 'Swedish Transplants' for extra thematic points. ..
6.  DOMINATE!!!!

Re: Random daydreaming: cheapest Turbo/SC engines for ill advised swaps...

fleming95 wrote:
therood wrote:

<snip>

Whatever turbos they put in the Saabs seem to be reliable enough of their own Accord; might be worth looking into.

<slight threadjack>

. . . I see what you did there. . . .  brilliant!

But here's whatcha oughta do if you're really into the 'ill-advised swaps':   I know there's a trophy in there somewhere!

You need two cars for the swap, right?  One donor, one donee?

But then you have an extra shell, and an extra engine, right?  And the job's only half done; you have to clean up the yard anyway, so:


1.  Buy turbocharged Saab .
2.  Buy turbocharged Volvo.
3.  Put Saab engine in Volvo.
4.  Put Volvo engine in Saab.
5.. (optional) Call yourselves the 'Swedish Transplants' for extra thematic points. ..
6.  DOMINATE!!!!

ABBA theme for sure!

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
24x Loser with the Celica. 16x loser in other fine machines
Overall winner Gingerman 2019