151 (edited by Jalopyshoppe 2016-10-30 05:14 PM)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

OnkelUdo wrote:
Jalopyshoppe wrote:

For those of you obsessed with class C, I encourage you to profitably run a race series on class C entries alone.
Everyone has their own idea of fun. I'd rather work at McDonald's than build/race/deal with a class C car. It holds ZERO interest to me.
For those of you who constantly evangelize the Lemons thing, I ask you, why? Do you need to be validated? If someone wants to race, they'll inquire.

Some of your post is well written but this goes against the grain of your claiming to each their own.  What you basically, in your own way, are "evangelizing" is what Chump and other "real racing" organizations are selling.  Is it possible that is what you are looking for?

Lemons is about real racing but is also about the absurd, ridiculous and improbable.  If you encourage Class C to seek their own race, you are missing at least 50% of what Jay encourages...and he runs his racing series profitably.

FYI I am one of the original posters that encouraged not encouraging more spectators.

I'm not encouraging class C to start their own race. If I come off that way, you get me wrong. I'm just really tired of hearing class C people complain about class A and B cars. The "add more penalties" or "force them to use xx tires" crap is exhausting.

I'm overall fairly happy with Lemons, and I think most of us here are as well. I don't want to deny those who enjoy class C. I don't want to make it more difficult, or discourage those who participate. The percentage of class A drivers who bitch about class C is substantially smaller than the class C guys that bitch about class A/B. Never mind the spectator issue. The constant "answer" to whatever Lemons issues seems to be "discourage class A/B". It's just annoying as fuck.

I don't want separate races. I don't want extra penalties, I don't want anything more than quiet cars and people to shut the fuck up and race. Maybe repealing the Stunting/Sploding rule.

Smokey Yunick, Jim Hall, Chad Knaus, and Me...

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

I had to go back a few pages to figure out what you were getting at about the special penalties/tires/whatever to limit non-class C cars.  I agree that singling out fast cars that operate within at least the spirit of the rules would be counter to what seems to be Jay's vision as well. 

Not part of this discussion really, but it might be folks expressing their concern about the speed creep that is apparently very real on both coasts (we have not seen as much of it Class A but B has gotten 95% as fast as A in the Midwest)

FYI, don't want people to think you want class C to go elsewhere...encouraging us to run our own race with only Class C entries might be a start.  I took the three most "inflammatory" comments out of context for a reason.

C drivers complaining about A or B verses A drivers complaining about C really seems to be a made up statistic but it might be a coastal thing again.  Mostly people complain about bad drivers and dangerous drivers and just plain asshats.  I think your preference might be coloring your memories/impressions.

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

OnkelUdo wrote:

I had to go back a few pages to figure out what you were getting at about the special penalties/tires/whatever to limit non-class C cars.  I agree that singling out fast cars that operate within at least the spirit of the rules would be counter to what seems to be Jay's vision as well. 

Not part of this discussion really, but it might be folks expressing their concern about the speed creep that is apparently very real on both coasts (we have not seen as much of it Class A but B has gotten 95% as fast as A in the Midwest)

FYI, don't want people to think you want class C to go elsewhere...encouraging us to run our own race with only Class C entries might be a start.  I took the three most "inflammatory" comments out of context for a reason.

C drivers complaining about A or B verses A drivers complaining about C really seems to be a made up statistic but it might be a coastal thing again.  Mostly people complain about bad drivers and dangerous drivers and just plain asshats.  I think your preference might be coloring your memories/impressions.

My single quote could be perceived that way, Nd it could have been worded better. The intent of the comment was to reinforce the "it takes all of us" concept. I am VERY aware that it takes all of us to make Lemons the experience that it is. I've been privy to enough Chump and Lucky Dog events to know that I don't want to be part of that scene.

I guess I need to clarify: I don't drive. I only build and manage cars. While what happens on track affects me, I'm not deeply concerned with it. I honestly have enough faith in Jay's staff to manage that aspect. I really do encourage the people who drive my cars not to be shitheads, and I don't repeat rent to people who fuck other people's weekends up.

You are correct in assuming my problem is coastal. The West coast has a culture of whiners. People lack the ability to accept losing and are often offended when others don't embrace their ideals. Hence the class warfare.

The duality of simultaneously complaining that winning isn't important while singling out fast cars to make racing more difficult for them, as if that will make winning easier for others. If winning doesn't matter, why do you care if some people try to win?

I get that my rant is off topic, but I'm not sorry.

On topic: Anything artificially added to Lemons with the hope of making it more attractive for television or spectators will almost certainly make it less fun for the participants. Does anyone remember the Top Gear segment? Imagine if we all had to add some sort of manufactured drama? The best Lemons weekend has zero drama. I can guarantee live feed from Cerveza's pit is dull as fuck. I'm sure footage from the car is less exciting than a commute. Conversely, watching Dave Montoya drive 300 miles to buy a Craigslist engine and proceed to swap it in and discover that it's blown up as well would have similarly limited appeal.

We're all onto a pretty good thing here. Let's be happy with it and do what we can to enrich our own experiences.

Smokey Yunick, Jim Hall, Chad Knaus, and Me...

154 (edited by Spank 2016-10-31 10:07 AM)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUGB0zUlUxo

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

Jalopyshoppe wrote:

For those of you obsessed with class C, I encourage you to profitably run a race series on class C entries alone.

For what it's worth, I read this sentence the same way you meant it. The point is, the percentage of Class C cars at any given race is pretty small. Without the SRS RACERZ in Class A, we wouldn't have a series. As long as they're not driving like assholes and they follow the spirit of the rules, I don't mind them paying the bills at all. Jay, Phil, et al do a pretty good job keeping it that way, all things considered.

I've tried to get friends to come out to a race, but even if you take away the $30 entry fee, Fish is right. This sport is boring to watch. The paddock is almost always more entertaining than the track, but even then you have to be really into the cars to enjoy it.

Command Pilot/Flight Director, Escape Velocity Racing
Index of Effluency, Heroic Fix, Class C Trophy, now hopelessly gunning for Class B.
Currently 1-2 vs. Team Fairlylame in the Class of 1964 Championships

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

What we need is more electric cars. I'm serious. I'm not talking about hybrids, but pure electrics.


As several people have pointed out, a Lemons race is essentially unwatchable by anyone other than Lemons racers. I don't see that changing without fundamentally changing the nature of the event.


As far as I know, real spectator races are not amateur events. They are driven by manufacturer$ and advertiser$. Again, I don't see that changing without fundamental changes to the underlying nature of our society.


One under-served area in racing, that also happens to be closely associated with big media and manufacturer hot-buttons, would be electric road car racing. 


Watch a Formula E race ; quiet race cars that turn slow, boring laps for for a very short time because they have no range. And yet it is popular and has incredible manufacturer support. To quote Michael Andretti, who owns a Formula E team, when talking about major auto manufacturer executives, "They probably don't know or maybe even care about the other series, but if you can tell them about a green racing series, it's a place where their R&D budgets for electric cars, electric motors, or whatever green programs they have can be showcased, they really listen and want to see how they can get involved."


So what can be done to get more cars in Class E?


-Waive entry fees.

-Waive $ limits.

-Incentive laps, kind of like the opposite of penalty laps (don't worry, the EVs still wouldn't be competitive if you gave them +100 laps).

-Extra incentives for bringing more modern EVs. We run a 1981 Plymouth Horizon, but realistically it would have been cheaper to buy a not-too-smashed-up Nissan Leaf from Copart, or even a smashed up one (in our case, I have a frame machine). Of course to make it race-worthy, the powertrain would end up resembling the stock setup just as much as a Nascar Ford Fusion powertrain resembles a stock Fusion powertrain, but it would still look like a Leaf on the outside.

-Probably other stuff, but you get the idea.


Of course, just like in Formula racing, the EV would never be anywhere near competitive with a gas-powered car, but if you got enough participants, then you'd spin Class E off into a separate race session, maybe stretch quiet hour on Sunday by half an hour and run it then. We asked about racing during quiet hour at the CMP race, and they would have let us if the safety workers weren't taking a break during that time. Then you wouldn't have EV manufacturers getting publicly spanked by janky crapcans, which I'm guessing that automotive executives do not want to see, and you'd have a race that was short enough that a spectator might watch it.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

157 (edited by Guildenstern 2016-11-01 05:19 PM)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

Free power hookup?


Also this is Lemons. I give it three races before someone shows up running an unshielded air cooled nuclear reactor.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL) https://www.facebook.com/groups/MBTLracing/
88 Thunderbird "What's the word? Thunderbird!", "What's the Price? Thirty Twice!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

Guildenstern wrote:

Free power hookup?


Also this is Lemons. I give it three races before someone shows up running an unshielded air cooled nuclear reactor.

Can it be a decay style reactor...cause I am probably on a watch list for that already.

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

rmcdaniels wrote:

What we need is more electric cars. I'm serious. I'm not talking about hybrids, but pure electrics.


As several people have pointed out, a Lemons race is essentially unwatchable by anyone other than Lemons racers. I don't see that changing without fundamentally changing the nature of the event.


As far as I know, real spectator races are not amateur events. They are driven by manufacturer$ and advertiser$. Again, I don't see that changing without fundamental changes to the underlying nature of our society.


One under-served area in racing, that also happens to be closely associated with big media and manufacturer hot-buttons, would be electric road car racing. 


Watch a Formula E race ; quiet race cars that turn slow, boring laps for for a very short time because they have no range. And yet it is popular and has incredible manufacturer support. To quote Michael Andretti, who owns a Formula E team, when talking about major auto manufacturer executives, "They probably don't know or maybe even care about the other series, but if you can tell them about a green racing series, it's a place where their R&D budgets for electric cars, electric motors, or whatever green programs they have can be showcased, they really listen and want to see how they can get involved."


So what can be done to get more cars in Class E?


-Waive entry fees.

-Waive $ limits.

-Incentive laps, kind of like the opposite of penalty laps (don't worry, the EVs still wouldn't be competitive if you gave them +100 laps).

-Extra incentives for bringing more modern EVs. We run a 1981 Plymouth Horizon, but realistically it would have been cheaper to buy a not-too-smashed-up Nissan Leaf from Copart, or even a smashed up one (in our case, I have a frame machine). Of course to make it race-worthy, the powertrain would end up resembling the stock setup just as much as a Nascar Ford Fusion powertrain resembles a stock Fusion powertrain, but it would still look like a Leaf on the outside.

-Probably other stuff, but you get the idea.


Of course, just like in Formula racing, the EV would never be anywhere near competitive with a gas-powered car, but if you got enough participants, then you'd spin Class E off into a separate race session, maybe stretch quiet hour on Sunday by half an hour and run it then. We asked about racing during quiet hour at the CMP race, and they would have let us if the safety workers weren't taking a break during that time. Then you wouldn't have EV manufacturers getting publicly spanked by janky crapcans, which I'm guessing that automotive executives do not want to see, and you'd have a race that was short enough that a spectator might watch it.


Oooooh....I like it.....
My wheels are spinning already.....

MarioKart Driving School: 1987 Honda Prelude Opus #28  (still can't win anything...)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

Jay is relatively uptight about electrical power stuff since Texas. We had to run everything by the race steward and brief the track safety personnel    on Friday. The level of scrutiny was relatively high (for Lemons).

I figure we need about 30Kva to drive it like a race car (unlike how we drove it at CMP), so the tentative plan for Barber looks something like this:

http://www.carolinahondas.com/members/roger-albums-stuff-picture6615-generator4.jpg

We're going to buy the extra insurance on the industrial generator rental.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

OnkelUdo wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

Free power hookup?


Also this is Lemons. I give it three races before someone shows up running an unshielded air cooled nuclear reactor.

Can it be a decay style reactor...cause I am probably on a watch list for that already.

At 10kW/tonne? You'll be over the weight limit.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL) https://www.facebook.com/groups/MBTLracing/
88 Thunderbird "What's the word? Thunderbird!", "What's the Price? Thirty Twice!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

Guildenstern wrote:
OnkelUdo wrote:
Guildenstern wrote:

Free power hookup?


Also this is Lemons. I give it three races before someone shows up running an unshielded air cooled nuclear reactor.

Can it be a decay style reactor...cause I am probably on a watch list for that already.

At 10kW/tonne? You'll be over the weight limit.

The solution: Wireless power transmission, ala Nikola Tesla!   Best done at a night race.  :-)

"I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!"
IOE winner in the Super Snipe -- Buttonwillow 2012
IOE winner in Super Snipe v2.0 -- Buttonwillow 2016
"Every Super Snipe in Lemons has won an IOE!"

163 (edited by m610 2016-11-04 08:23 PM)

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

The spectators I know have loved being at our races. Some examples:

Gil, generally into more prestigious stuff, took one look at the assembled in the Sears Point garages and said he now knew why we liked this kind of racing. That could have been a back-handed complement, but I don't think so. He seemed pleasantly surprised.

A newly engaged couple dropped in at last year's Sacto show, got a good laugh, asked when our next race was, and actually came and hung out with us all Saturday and later went to dinner with us.

A father and three young sons met us at last year's Sacto show. They came by again this year to see us again and to tell us about the fun they had at Arse-Freeze last year, asked about Arse-Freeze 2016, and told us they'd be there and would look for us in the pits.

Roger, an old school race engine builder, mostly retired, came to the Buttonwillow race. He ventured out briefly and immediately came back, disgusted at all the crap he saw in the paddock. Then the Nyan car, pitted behind us, fired up their car and sound system. The pain on Roger's face... priceless. He grumbled that he hoped they blew up soon. Later, in the bleachers watching the start of the race, the Nyan car came by, full song. Roger laughed, said he got it, that was funny, and started finding respect for all the other "crap". Went home a changed man.

Brian, used to race Riverside and all that, is into Fieros, overly dramatic acting out old-school manhood stuff, can be pretty embarrassing at times, was horrified at what we we doing to decent cars, especially the Mexican wrestling team-themed Fiero. Desperately wants to race with us.

Roy, an item on his bucket list was to see, in person, an Opel GT racing. Lemons provided that for him, and seriously, he is grateful.

LT, used to buy cars from salvage yards, fix them up to race, and took them to local ovals to race them. Even made money selling some of his cars to other racers. Two strokes, five heart attacks, and a bunch of other stuff later, comes to our races, barely able to walk, just to be in the middle of it all, watching the beater racing, reliving his youth.

The thing is, Lemons is fun. It's fun working on the cars, fun racing the cars, fun hanging out with you guys and gals, and fun telling our stories to unsuspecting strangers. Whether we do the telling to people perusing the pits, at shows, or reading Phil's stories, it's fun. Having fun is self-validating.

Mike

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

rmcdaniels wrote:

What we need is more electric cars. I'm serious.

That's funny.

Scott

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

Jalopyshoppe wrote:

Maybe repealing the Stunting/Sploding rule.


HEAR, HEAR! I vote Jalopyshoppe for president, I want the S/S rule abolished. Quiet nights are sad nights at a race track.

Quad4 CRX - Wartburg 311 - Civic Wagovan - Parnelli Jones Galaxie - LS400 - Lancia MR2 - Boat - Sentra - 56 Ford Victoria
Known Associate of 3pedal Mafia, Speedycop, and the Russians.  Maybe even NSF.

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

Wow as a Class C Racer I feel like I need to never go to California....  As a side note I don't think we need to do anything to get more spectators.  RoadKill has done it for us.  We had 150 some new drivers and like 28 new cars at MSR.  I hate to say this but Jay and Nick have a good deal going with the RoadKill guys and I don't think they need our help...

Now they just have to learn how to drive...

Buckaroo.

Organizer's Choice Houston Yee-Haw Its Lemons 08', DNF Houston Yee-Haw Its Lemons 09'
Ugly Class 3 Winner Houston Gatoro-o-Rama  10', Ugly Class 3 Winner BFE Colorado 10', Ugly Class 3 Winner Texas World Speedway 12, We got Screwed Winner ECR 14', Barely Finished MSR 14' and trying like hell for an IOE in 2015.

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

Little Buckaroo wrote:

Wow as a Class C Racer I feel like I need to never go to California....


Buckaroo.

You actually should, California does need more C class cars. We just don't need people discouraging A class cars.

You have it better than you know in Texas. Literally the best group of people to race with. I really encourage you to bring your car and yourself out here to make California more like Texas.

Smokey Yunick, Jim Hall, Chad Knaus, and Me...

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

How do you get spectators to Lemons races?  There has to be something more than car racing. Bathurst in Australia, the 24 hour race at Nurburgring, Monaco F1 GP, all in their own ways offer more than just motor racing.  Often the race is a sideshow for many spectators.  The spectators need a party with a car race they can watch from time to time.

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

A lemony version of an F1 Village? I'm picturing a cross between a hobo jungle and Burning Man, but slightly cleaner and less druggy.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

Lemons "Quality" Old carnival rides with snot welds and zip ties in place of bolts!!

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL) https://www.facebook.com/groups/MBTLracing/
88 Thunderbird "What's the word? Thunderbird!", "What's the Price? Thirty Twice!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)

171

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

Guildenstern wrote:

Lemons "Quality" Old carnival rides with snot welds and zip ties in place of bolts!!

$500 Ferris Wheel my ass!

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

rmcdaniels wrote:

A cross between a hobo jungle and Burning Man, but slightly cleaner and less druggy.

This is exactly what I tell whomever will listen when they ask what a Lemons race is like. But with a car race in the background.

#19 Thunderchicken Extra Crispy Racing. 1992 Thunderbird Super Coupe
Organizers Choice Award, 2015 Arse-Freeze-Apaloosa.
#4 R. Loewy Racing, 1963 Studebaker Avanti
IOE, Pacific Northworst GP 2016

Re: What can be done to make Lemons more attractive to spectators?

MZAVARIN wrote:

It'd be better if we increased participants....not spectators..

Friggin' this.

- All of Texas