Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

Exactly so add 6 more laps to the daily total.

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

I'm going to look through my tubs of failed charger projects and see if I can come up with enough stuff to make two sets of chargers.

I have enough good parts for one really good set of chargers; maybe I can come up with a second set of sketchier chargers and try running two charging stations.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

I am an electric powered enthusiast (see my electric-boat-forum.com where water and electricity mix for what is also stretching electric power,  btw I built the first electric jetski in the world ..)

If I might make a suggestion....you need to run two cars at the race.  Car1 is the electric car.  Car2 is a hybrid, which has an extra battery pack that is charged up while the car is running the track under gas power.
They both come into the pits, and Car2 dumps its charged pack power into Car1.   Some version of lithium can be charged and discharged at very high rates, and lead acid batteries can certainly handle it.

Problem solved.   Just be ready to make a lot of pitstops.

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

Of course that's bringing us back around to mounting a 20kwh generator on the car and turning it in to a train.

I figure we'll require 15 pit stops to get us through a day, basically every 30 minutes.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

rmcdaniels wrote:

Of course that's bringing us back around to mounting a 20kwh generator on the car and turning it in to a train.

I figure we'll require 15 pit stops to get us through a day, basically every 30 minutes.

Having the generator in the electric car makes it a hybrid, not an electric car. 
Must have an electric car to win the e- class and qualify for cost exemption, right? 

While you could just run a huge generator at full throttle in the pits to generate the large amount of energy needed
rather than a second car as hybrid,  the hybrid car is doing something "useful" while burning fuel and generating pollution and greenhouse gases and make lots of noise, as racecars do that on the track.  It would not be appreciated doing it in the pits.

Yeah, frequent pit stops is your only real option, making them quick is what you are after.
A battery swap still needs the old one recharged before the next pit.  So perhaps what you can do is the battery swap for the ev,
then the hybrid car pits to recharge the old pack with its dump pack, so basically the hybrid car will be slow to make the ev faster.

Or convince tracks to install under track inductive charging coils...yeah that is going to happen.  smile

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

nimblemotorsports wrote:
rmcdaniels wrote:

Of course that's bringing us back around to mounting a 20kwh generator on the car and turning it in to a train.

I figure we'll require 15 pit stops to get us through a day, basically every 30 minutes.

Having the generator in the electric car makes it a hybrid, not an electric car. 
Must have an electric car to win the e- class and qualify for cost exemption, right? 

While you could just run a huge generator at full throttle in the pits to generate the large amount of energy needed
rather than a second car as hybrid,  the hybrid car is doing something "useful" while burning fuel and generating pollution and greenhouse gases and make lots of noise, as racecars do that on the track.  It would not be appreciated doing it in the pits.

Yeah, frequent pit stops is your only real option, making them quick is what you are after.
A battery swap still needs the old one recharged before the next pit.  So perhaps what you can do is the battery swap for the ev,
then the hybrid car pits to recharge the old pack with its dump pack, so basically the hybrid car will be slow to make the ev faster.

Or convince tracks to install under track inductive charging coils...yeah that is going to happen.  smile

From what  I remember reading on this forum, when running a Prius, it basically keeps it batteries dead. Because when you accelerate you use battery power as well. By disabling that, a hybrid like Prius becomes a very slow car. And only recharging when braking.
A diesel generator should be higher efficiency then a hybrid power plant as well.
The sad part is the pollution, but its racing, and most cars have emissions removed anyways.

https://www.facebook.com/greatglobsofoil/
This car....Is said to have a will of it's Own. Twisting its own body in rage...It accelerates on.
1978 Opel/Buick Isuzu - 4 races, IOE, Incredible Feats in Badge Engineering 1996 Ford Probe GT - under a knife
http://i.imgur.com/m3KbADo.gif

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

If Car2 had a huge surplus of extra power, this idea might work.  Otherwise I don't really see any advantage over just using a generator.  Also, spending an additional $1500 worth of entry fees to run a very slow hybrid for the express purpose of charging batteries seems like a....poor use of capital.

2008- 2010:  1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
2010-present:  1975 Ford LTD Landau...doesn't have a name?

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

kakarot1232001 wrote:

...
The sad part is the pollution, but its racing, and most cars have emissions removed anyways.

I don't know how feasible something like this would be to rent and carry to CMP, but a biodiesel generator setup with a Stirling cogenerator would have lower emissions and higher efficiency.

Team FPO (For Parts Only)

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

A lot of the decisions being made here are budget-related.

Stuff like generators comes down to W/$. Some of it is also logistics related. We don't have the room on our trailer for more than the car; anything else will have to fit in the RV, where it will be loaded/unloaded by a team with an average age of over 50.

So while some solutions are really great; we don't have the resources to implement them.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

160 (edited by kakarot1232001 2017-04-21 01:12 PM)

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

spoted this with my little eye:
https://online.ogs.ny.gov/surpluspublic … ?ID=239327
https://online.ogs.ny.gov/surpluspublic … ?ID=239326

May it help you in your endeavours

https://www.facebook.com/greatglobsofoil/
This car....Is said to have a will of it's Own. Twisting its own body in rage...It accelerates on.
1978 Opel/Buick Isuzu - 4 races, IOE, Incredible Feats in Badge Engineering 1996 Ford Probe GT - under a knife
http://i.imgur.com/m3KbADo.gif

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

rmcdaniels wrote:

Of course that's bringing us back around to mounting a 20kwh generator on the car and turning it in to a train. .

Exactly. If I were to go this route -- which is technically "gas electric" or "diesel electric", not hybrid -- I'd use supercapacitors and a diesel generator. Of course, 100-120KW of supercaps will cost more than renting the track. (VIR rates, not CMP rates.)

We're old and out of shape, so lugging hundred pound things around isn't fun. You're going to love the Tesla Inspired(tm) solution to swapping a 500lb power module.

Duff Beer Civic (#128) -- 2014 Sebring - Class B (#1 of 7), 2016 Barber - Class B
1981 Jet Electrica 007 [Plymouth Horizon TC3] (#128) -- Mk.1 - Index of Effluency Eco (IOEe) @ 2016 Lemons South Fall, Mk.2 - Judges' Choice @ 2017 'Shine Country Classic, Mk.3 - Index of Effluency @ 2017 Southern Discomfort

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

mechimike wrote:

14" from ground to bottom of license plate area on bumper. 15.5" for the rest of the bumper bottom to the ground. The area under the license plat it a little *ehem* swiss-cheesy, so we might need to mount the receiver dealie off- center slightly.

I apologize, but looking at where we are today after testing our charging station setup and breaking our generator, there is no chance that I'll have the magnetic coupler rigged up in time for CMP.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

Not a bad day at the race track, 129 laps and:

http://www.carolinahondas.com/members/roger-albums-stuff-picture6645-ioe.jpg

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

rmcdaniels wrote:

Not a bad day at the race track, 129 laps and:

http://www.carolinahondas.com/members/roger-albums-stuff-picture6645-ioe.jpg


More laps than we turned.......

Congrats on a job well done.

whatever it was i didn't do it
dorifto dogs E30 - gone but not forgotten

Lee Ho Fook's Racing E36

165

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

Congrats guys!   I still contend Team Duff is still the best slow team.  Always very predictable and safe to race around these guys even with some huge speed differentials sometimes.

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
#411
'93 Acura Integra

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

VKZ24 wrote:

Congrats guys!   I still contend Team Duff is still the best slow team.  Always very predictable and safe to race around these guys even with some huge speed differentials sometimes.

Absolutely.

I was passing a car in the carousel and The Duff Car was in front of us, I knew exactly where they were headed at track out so used them as a pick....  wink

whatever it was i didn't do it
dorifto dogs E30 - gone but not forgotten

Lee Ho Fook's Racing E36

167

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

soldmystang wrote:

I was passing a car in the carousel and The Duff Car was in front of us, I knew exactly where they were headed at track out so used them as a pick....  wink

This makes me cringe. When I'm the slow car and I see it happening in my mirror, it's major pucker that I might get plowed.

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

Spank wrote:
soldmystang wrote:

I was passing a car in the carousel and The Duff Car was in front of us, I knew exactly where they were headed at track out so used them as a pick....  wink

This makes me cringe. When I'm the slow car and I see it happening in my mirror, it's major pucker that I might get plowed.

Understood... And I always try to give plenty of room, but if you're setting up a car running SLIGHTLY slower than you for a pass, and ahead is a guy running 15 mph slower than either of you, what is there to do? I usually try to wait for the straight and process 'em then, but when you're driving a pretty slow car at Sonoma, your passing opportunities are often "wait for the AMC Eagle/Rambler/ etc then introduce that car buzzing in your ear to its rear bumper"...

OMG Racing '94 Benz S500 #140: https://www.facebook.com/pages/OMG-Raci … 2774944199
Judges Choice and Regional Award winner! Chuckwalla '12, Buttonwillow '13, BFE GP '15, Miller '14 & '15, Sonoma '13,'14,'15. Inde '16,17.Finisher of the inaugural Lemons Rally, in the black Jag.... and IOE in the Super Snipe back in '12...look for the #820 Audi back on a track near you in 2017!!

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

When I'm in the Electrica, I'm primarily in traffic management mode. I'm not racing anyone, so I spend a lot of time looking in the mirrors and figuring out how many are coming, where they will catch me, and what's the best way to get them by me quickly and smoothly so nobody gets frustrated or is surprised. I try to give every car a point-by to make sure that we're all clear on how the pass is going to happen, although some drivers don't appear to understand what a point-by is.

In the Electrica V1, at 30-40 MPH, traffic management is very difficult because there's no time to set anything up. At CMP this past weekend in the Electrica V3, going 70-80 MPH, I thought that it was very easy to keep everyone moving quickly and smoothly around me. I'm happy that people agree.

And congrats to VK on the P1 finish!

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

170 (edited by jfbeam 2017-05-01 05:25 PM)

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

Spank wrote:

This makes me cringe. When I'm the slow car and I see it happening in my mirror, it's major pucker that I might get plowed.

Driving the Mk.1 Electrica, yes. A 100mph differential makes me a turtle in the road. Everyone has to know where I am to avoid me; there's nothing I can do to give any space. That's why there were 6 orange bike flags on the car for everyone to see us half a mile away. And the corner workers where keen to keep a white flag two stations behind us -- and tell me to get back off-line before dropping the double-yellow. (The workers loved us, despite the obviously unsafe condition. We're dead silent, and slow enough to talk to the workers as we went by.)

The current Mk.3 configuration (with 3 battery modules) is capable of over 100mph. Not that anyone is crazy enough to drive a 35yo L-body at such a speed -- the stopping distance is measured in parsecs (if it can stop itself at all.) It's actually powerful enough now to over heat the motor in a few minutes. Around 100C regenerative braking stops working, and you're left with tiny manual brakes to stop a 2ton pile of steel. If we keep doing this, I'll have to switch to the marine version of that motor -- oil cooled system.

Speaking of regen... Holy shit will that slow you down. I originally had it set to "digital" mode. Triggered by brake light switch, it's supposed to be a 2.5s ramp to 80% (400A), but was 2.5s of nothing followed by being thrown forward into the harness (albeit gently.) You had to plan your braking perfectly, if you lift, you won't have brakes for 2.5s. I set it back to brake pressure mode after that.

In a few hours, I'll have the video from the "quiet hour racing" up.

NOTE: Anyone wishing to join the Class E Club(tm), be aware the RF noise generated by an EV will interfere with your transponder. (AC systems MUCH more than DC) Keep Roland happy, get your transponder as far from the drive system and as low to the ground as practical.

It was GREAT weekend. Nothing blew up. No one was electrocuted, despite the rain and wet batteries. Our massive jenga tower of Chinese agricultural drone chargers actually worked -- mostly -- this time.

Duff Beer Civic (#128) -- 2014 Sebring - Class B (#1 of 7), 2016 Barber - Class B
1981 Jet Electrica 007 [Plymouth Horizon TC3] (#128) -- Mk.1 - Index of Effluency Eco (IOEe) @ 2016 Lemons South Fall, Mk.2 - Judges' Choice @ 2017 'Shine Country Classic, Mk.3 - Index of Effluency @ 2017 Southern Discomfort

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

Hey guys.  Big congrats on the IoE.  Well, well deserved. 

You always gave the LTD plenty of room and a point by every single time.  Very clean and easy to race around.  I tried to give a thumbs-up every time I passed.  :-)

2008- 2010:  1966 Volvo 122, "Charlie"
2010-present:  1975 Ford LTD Landau...doesn't have a name?

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

After reviewing the over 120 pieces that have to be connected and operated in the paddock to make this work, we have decided that this solution needs to be simplified, but without losing its craziness or stupidity. If anything, we need to double down on the crazy and stupid. We also have a 300/Spartan theme that really relies on us going for 300 laps at the fall CMP race, and I really want to wear a cape in September, so we need to spend more time turning laps and less time monitoring hundreds of potential failure points. We'd also like to not be the guys running four noisy generators in the paddock until 2:00 A.M.

For all of those who have mentioned generators in the car and I have replied that it's not going to work for some practical reason, I apologize. You were right; I was wrong.

Prepare for series-hybrid petro-electric domination. A generator in the back and a bank of super capacitors as an energy sink to store power for acceleration. No more batteries or chargers or cables.

I can see no way in which this carefully laid plan could possibly fail.

Everybody grab your brooms, it's shenanigans!

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

It works for locomotives. Why wouldn't that work in a race car?!? (psst, that's how the 1st gen Chevy Volt worked, too. To get the gubment money, it had to be a pure electric; now they're handing out money for plugin hybrids so the generator gets coupled to the drive system.)

PS: that "practical reason" was there's no where to put it -- the batteries take up all the space. Plus the need for complicated, expensive battery management systems.

Duff Beer Civic (#128) -- 2014 Sebring - Class B (#1 of 7), 2016 Barber - Class B
1981 Jet Electrica 007 [Plymouth Horizon TC3] (#128) -- Mk.1 - Index of Effluency Eco (IOEe) @ 2016 Lemons South Fall, Mk.2 - Judges' Choice @ 2017 'Shine Country Classic, Mk.3 - Index of Effluency @ 2017 Southern Discomfort

174

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

Consider reaching out to the west coast team, If It's Not Punk It's Junk. They kinda sorta may have some ideas.

Just Sayin'

You can probably reach them through the info in this ad.
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/esd/pts/6086872581.html


But you didn't hear it from me...

Re: "Racing" the Duff Beer Electric Car

Spank wrote:

Consider reaching out to the west coast team...

EV West has everything of value out of the Smart EVs. (i.e. the batteries)

We're tired of the complicated, finicky nature of high-energy batteries. They work ok for mass produced, production cars because they have the expensive crap to manage battery charge. For race applications, that's weight you don't want or need in the car. Back in the paddock, you need stacks of batteries, chargers, BMS's, and a small nuclear power plant to feed it all. Capacitors have none of that nonsense. They can be cycled millions of times, require only the most basic over-voltage protection circuit, charge and discharge in seconds...

Duff Beer Civic (#128) -- 2014 Sebring - Class B (#1 of 7), 2016 Barber - Class B
1981 Jet Electrica 007 [Plymouth Horizon TC3] (#128) -- Mk.1 - Index of Effluency Eco (IOEe) @ 2016 Lemons South Fall, Mk.2 - Judges' Choice @ 2017 'Shine Country Classic, Mk.3 - Index of Effluency @ 2017 Southern Discomfort