The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Bench Racing → OTHER crap can races?
I'm all about the opportunity to race another series with practically the same car!
The whole ChumpCar thing bugs me - the idea of my car being called a chump is insulting. 
The rumor mill indicates that a slightly more reputable crowd is trying to get a "CrapCanAm" series off the ground, with the idea of running complementary to Lemons - in NY when 24HoL is in CA, etc - so as not to take traffic away from Lemons but give teams more seat time and more theme refinement time. It sounds like they also plan to run *in* Canada, so get those DUIs expunged.
The whole ChumpCar thing bugs me - the idea of my car being called a chump is insulting.
The rumor mill indicates that a slightly more reputable crowd is trying to get a "CrapCanAm" series off the ground, with the idea of running complementary to Lemons - in NY when 24HoL is in CA, etc - so as not to take traffic away from Lemons but give teams more seat time and more theme refinement time. It sounds like they also plan to run *in* Canada, so get those DUIs expunged.
Get that passport! You'll have more trouble getting back into the 'States than you will coming up here...BTW, 100kph = 62 mph and the Ontario Provincial Police use black-and-white Vics and Chargers. Detectors are illegal. FYI.
Atomicalex,
Car to elaborate on CrapCanAm.
I had been considering/looking into putting on a race.
I was thinking Amateur Challenge. Lemons cars racing with cars other amateur cars like Spec Miatas. Then Chumpcar came along. Now they've invited Spec Miatas too, wonder if I gave him that idea?
Miatas have less than 120hp guys. They just have a lot of freakin' grip!
I am interested in Chump but I have read about John and RMP and a bit on AMP. I am not so sure of his motives. Is he really in it for the betterment of Crap Can racing or his personal bank account.
The reality is racing is pretty much an addiction. As long as the markets do not become over saturated with events, I think races will be successful regardless of motives.
I am anxious to see how the first race works out.
That CrapCanAm thing seems interesting. I did some research:
Their website is going live in 15 days
Their website was registered by Andy Didorosi (WHOIS lookup)
Andy Didorosi contributed to Jalopnik
That's about all I could get (I'm a programmer, not a detective). Now I'm really curious what happens in 15 days, but if your rumours of more Canadian races are true, it makes me happy.
As long as the markets do not become over saturated with events,
So long as we live in capitalist societies, I think this is inevitable. After 2-3 years of Lemons having a monopoly on low-budget enduro racing, we're seeing several competing series trying to get a piece of the pie. Assuming the low-budget enduro racing market is like any other, we'll probably see a gradual proliferation of races until anyone that wants to race, can. It's probably a net good for racers, as it will drive down prices or improve the events through competition, albeit at the cost of some of the 'heart' of the events.
Or I'm overthinking things.
That CrapCanAm thing seems interesting. I did some research:
Their website is going live in 15 days
Their website was registered by Andy Didorosi (WHOIS lookup)
Andy Didorosi contributed to JalopnikThat's about all I could get (I'm a programmer, not a detective). Now I'm really curious what happens in 15 days, but if your rumours of more Canadian races are true, it makes me happy.
Uh... we like Andy (hi Andy!) and he worked as a Judge for us at Nelson Ledges a couple weeks back, but CrapCanAm.com grew out of a discussion he and I had about how easy it is to start your own race series.
Finishing it, ala Lemons, that's another story.
Can someone elaborate re. John Condren? There seems to be a suggestion that he'll take the entry fee but not deliver a race...if he does deliver a contest as advertised, are his legal issues relevant? they might be, just don't know anything about him...If this becomes a profit-driven enterprise, does that matter if the events are affordable and fun?
Can someone elaborate re. John Condren? There seems to be a suggestion that he'll take the entry fee but not deliver a race...if he does deliver a contest as advertised, are his legal issues relevant? they might be, just don't know anything about him...If this becomes a profit-driven enterprise, does that matter if the events are affordable and fun?
I've heard this too, but I've also talked to John a few times and he is very committed to getting ChumpCar off the ground. If it means more races near Portland for me and my team, I couldn't care less about the "rumor mill". I've found that this racing community is very "small-town". All it takes is one guy with a chip on his shoulder to ruin it for everyone else.
More crap-can racing within 800? I'm SOO in
I really don't know what affect RMP has on Chumpcar. It's just a credibility thing.
I guess the thing is a moral/ethical compass issue. The information on the down turn of RMP is pretty one sided from the Merced Sun Star. I think they had great things to say early in the RMP stuff. So one questionably credible source talking about the credibility of the other doesn't really paint a clear picture.
I don't think Chumpcar will take the money and run. If they did you would lose your entry fee. It would suck but that would be that.
I don't like their claiming rule because I think John plan's to use it. The criteria for their claiming is subjective and based on their perception of what a $500 car is. Lots of guys at NL didn't seem to think a 944 was a $500 car.
There clause for $1500 as raced is a far cry from the cost to actually get a car race ready. The about covers the cage. Would you like some tires, brakes, seat and a harness to go with that? Add about $1500+ and you still don't have the $500 car. Get some extras like spare tires, brake pads and rotors, radios, a cool system, lap timer, gauges that actually work and you are getting up there.
Lots of teams report built cost up to $6000 for a $500 Crap Can. Now some guy (John) who suspect's you're cheating or maybe just wants to screw you (read about RMP, you won't be the first person who got screwed) claims your car for $1500 and auctions it off to anyone willing to bid starting at $2000. At $2000 there should be a long line of bidders cause that's dirt cheap.
Or some spectator decides this looks fun and understands the time and expenses involved in building one of these cars and realizes the bargain. Especially since the car is supposed to be a "cheater" and probably even finished the race. There should be plenty of bidders going after your car. So, don't forget your check book.
Obviously the thought of getting claim scares me and is may be based on perception more than reality.
There are other consequences based on subjection. Do you want a subjective decision coming from someone with a questionable integrity.
Then there seems to be an ego thing going on.
John insists stock brakes are adequate for the racing we are doing. Yet, there are posts all over the place about brake failures and the Tunachuckers fire from blown brake line. I feel like John is letting his ego affect his better judgement here.
That does not mean I think you need Brembos either. Make sure your crap is in good working order. Old rubber stuff is bad. New stainless is all kinds of good, drums - bad, rotors - better.
There are parts of the rules that seem a bit contradictory and they keep changing. That also makes me wonder how much these guys know what they are doing. The Lemons rules a simple and they work. Why mess with a good thing?
What's up with all the interest in charity all the sudden too. I saw no mentions of charity in RMP stuff. A year later John and Chumpcar are all into charity. That's great but why the sudden change?
Does any of this directly affect Chumpcar and races, who knows. We really need to see how their events work out. I am sure there will be some adjustments after a few events.
On the claiming rule, keep in mind that it REALLY is a $250 penalty for bringing a flagrant cheater to the table. Let's say you slip through a car without penalty, slap a turbocharger onto it before racing, and then wipe the floor with the field. You cheated, and they claim it. It goes up for auction almost immediately, and the bidding starts at $1750. Who has money laying around like that? That's right, YOU do because you have this $1500 check in your hand. Pony up another $250 and it's yours (again).
I have a Lemons car I would LOVE to have them claim and give me $1500 for. But it would still be sad to see the Craptation wheeled away LOL.
I have no issues with letting any of my potential or current Lemons cars go for $1500... I went into Nelson with the mindset that the car would come home a worthless heap & kept the "your car can be destroyed at an time" phrase in the back of my mind. I wasn't pleasantly surprised to load the car up with only a couple minor dents & dings.
Actually, I think I LOVE the claiming rule! Not that I would use it or hope to gain from it, but just to keep everyone honest. As for the brake & wheel rules, the 2X rule & safety are not really issues. Stainless lines & good pads are one thing, Brembos & unobtainium wheels are quite another... Drum brakes are not an issue for me either, as we had them on the rear of our car with stock shoes. If we had a car like the caddy, Porterfield can re-line your shoes with a good brake lining & you're all set.
Eric
Who has money laying around like that?
Maybe the guy racing the Neon that came to the track in his Ferrari or the guys with the 6 figure RVs, the Porsche guys or some spectator on the fence about building a car.
Plenty of guys racing down here in Texas have plenty of money around.
You might get away with a $250 penalty/fine or your might be left walking.
Yes, our cars can get destroyed at any time on the track just like your driver on public roads. Just how often does that happen?
How many cars have been wrecked to the point they were 100% destroyed? Aside from the burnt BMW, the worst damage I have seen has been from the Curse.
FYI - As a seasoned financial professional, let me say that you have to look deeper at statements like "sending NET revenue to charity" as they can be a bit deceptive.
No one does all this work for free, so I suspect he and others will have paying positions in Chumpcar.... What I'm saying is that ChumpCar will in all likelyhood pay John Condren as CEO or whatever, and what is left could be paid to a charity and it would still meet the description of "profits going to charity".
I'm not doubting his motives, just saying that that statement alone does not cast him as a altruistic saint on a mission for all of crap car kingdom. And of course Jay would have to get a real job if this thing with Lemons went belly up, as I'm sure he profits from his work as well. I'd want to get paid myself. I am a bit concerned when I see a lot of fees, but he's trying to get away from tomfoolery penalties that are part of Lemons, for better or worse.
The more series the better, and the Texas HHR race and TMS race seem quite cool. HHR is a great track with a lot of elevation and you can see nearly the whole deal from pits as its mostly below you.
Stovebolt nailed it.
Condren is doing this to make money.
Again, it's sad that it's Lemons with a sense-of-humor-ectomy, but it's fine that he's trying to expand the notion of crap car racing...
That said, I question his motives and ability to pull off some of what he's claiming.
And it's a bit annoying that while he claims to not be trading on the Lemons name, he certainly appears to have used it to get (or try to get) track dates.
Good for him if he pulls it off, but for me the Lemons 2010 expansion has pretty much got my racing needs (and budget- 4 races!) covered, and I really enjoy the atmosphere that is a Lemons paddock.
I know Lemons is fun for everyone involved, but do y'all really think Jay started this gig WITHOUT the intention of making money? There's money in racing! My hat is off to Jay for finding a novel way to market it and build his own market.
I know Lemons is fun for everyone involved, but do y'all really think Jay started this gig WITHOUT the intention of making money? There's money in racing! My hat is off to Jay for finding a novel way to market it and build his own market.
+1 Loren is right! I even have a T-shirt that says there is money in Racing cause I put it there.
I just think it's great that Jay and his friends got together and found a niche in racing for all of us wanna-be racers to join in on. If John can pull it off then so be it.
I can only imagine the satisfaction these guys get when they see the huge smiles on our faces at the end of the day knowing they pulled off another fantastic event where most if not all of us had fun. If they walk away with their pockets full of money then so be it.
It's their Idea and if they wanted to they could pull the plug on the whole thing and walk away, leaving us with crap sitting in our back yards to rust away for another dream. Just remember "crap in your yard" and thank these guys for letting us put that "crap" on a track for a couple of days a year.
I wonder if there are enough racers to make 2 crapcan series survive?
Chump was looking appealing... until the 2010 schedule came out.
I have a life outside of racing. Really, I swear I'm actually a professional. That means more than 5 or 6 races a year just isn't feasible. I can easily make 5 Lemons races without compromising my professional obligations. A sixth race would probably even work, provided the road trip is under 18 hours each way.
Chump doesn't matter tho. I'd really rather have my racing with a sense of humor. The humor and atmosphere is what made me drink the Kool-Aid in the first place. I just can't see racing without it.
Of course the Chump promoters want to make money. So? Lemons organizers make money too. I'm not going to hold that against Chump.
Certainly the much improved schedule from Lemons will hurt my chances of attending more than a couple Chump races, but i still plan to do a few. I get my kicks on the track, not in watching penalties handed out, so I don't really care whether it's just time served or doing some silly thing. I do agree that increasing the crapcan schedule from 10-35 or so will make it tough for Chump to break in, and tough for both series to host a profitable race. I will go with races at good tracks, close to home and at convenient times regardless of series. Right now I'm looking at 4 Lemons races and 2 Chump races.
We have been talking about the 2010 race options down here around Texas.
With 5 Lemons races and 2 Chump Races, that's a lot of races.
Being from St. Louis, if some friends or family from up there are interested, I might be willing to go to Memphis.
The Lemons New Years Eve race just sounds like the best way to ring the New Year, just have to figure out how to afford it
We are thinking we will run a different car in Chump at TMS. A true 24 hour race in our backyard is hard to pass up.
Regarding Chump and making money. I understand both groups need to be profitable. I am very glad Jay got Lemons going and has expanded so we can get our racing fix. (I'd really like to know how the initial discussions with insurance companies went) John with Chump did help Jay get Lemons going with the first race being at Altamont.
That said, John said this in his initial intro for ChumpCar on the Yahoo board:
There have been many, many messages posted on the Yahoo e-mail group over the last 2 years (before the forum came along), calling for new races throughout various parts of the country, as well as calls for additional races where one race a year was being held. These same requests have actually carried over to the forum and continue to this day.
With that in mind, I started to develop the ChumpCar World Series -- a new endurance road racing series that has its roots in Lemons, but applies its own format to create its own personalty.
Typically, Lemons is referred to as "the other race" on the Chump forum. It seems kind of disrespectful. Rarely does anyone here refer to Chump as "the other race." Show some respect for your "roots."
Somewhere else John said Lemons is done expanding, he will continue to race in Lemons while Jay and crew will participate in Chump. He made it sound like he and Jay had a nice conversation about putting on more races. This may have come up in a conversation John and I had, I don't remember.
Maybe they count differently in Cali but last I checked 23 about twice as many as 11. So was there really ever discussion about future Lemons expansion between Jay & John?
While I don't appreciate "the other race" references and a bit of dishonesty I still want to do a True 24 Hour Crap Can race. I think we'll be racing at TMS, if John will let me.
FYI, if you want my respect, don't lie to me.
A Troy diatribe that doesn't mention brakes!? What kind of topsy-turvy fever dream world is this? 
BTW, I think "that other series" is just a bit of harmless ribbing, in much the same way that Jalopnik is referred to as [REDACTED] over at Hooniverse.com.
"are there enough crap can racers to support two series?"
Good question. Also for our Houston texas team, we have fair number of race options. However, a lot of the people I talk to who learn of this sort of thing want to do it, so there is room for growth - however many balk at the amount of mechanical work involved, and flake out. I know many teams face this with team members who flame out or fade away, whatever.
I for one like the chump car rules the last time I read them, and our car should pass tech at both.
Since most races seem to have more wanting to race than actually can race it would seem that there is room for more racing. So once the races start only being able field half the cars they want then both will have to rethink. Even with that the chump schedule for a first season seems rather ambitious.
More racing is always beneficial to us addicts, except in the pocketbook. I -finally- went to the chumpcar series site and I don't think the schedule is geared to compliment the Lemons schedule so much as it's designed for parasitic purposes. Gingerman in August? Lemons is already running 2 events at that track, and it'll definitely affect attendance @ MAM. They're doing Putnam Park the weekend right before a Gingerman Lemons race. Teams may drop upwards of $1500 just in event fees, and most aren't going to be doing it within a week of each other. People are going to pick one.
Lemons without the humor is going to be one of those friday night circle track race for money events...without the pot going to the winner at the end of the night.
IMO chumpcar sounds like Lemons for Whiners. If you "don't get it" for Lemons, you can go there, without the pranks, no complete car destruction, and you'll get more money if the organizers take your clunker.
If you're not racing for fun, and you're not racing for money, John has a series for you, but what's the point?
If you're not racing for fun, and you're not racing for money, John has a series for you, but what's the point?
But the racing IS the fun! And both series offer that. I'm happy Lemons greatly increased their schedules, and I'll at least try the Chump series.
The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Bench Racing → OTHER crap can races?