Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Marc wrote:

Ahh, that makes more sense, it's just unrectified smile

you could actually make that work without batteries in the middle if you had the right motor. you just step up the voltage to where you want it then use a bunch of TRIACs to do some wave-chopping to throttle the motor.

as long as it was a brushless A/C motor you would not get premature wear, but it would likely scream and whine at certain power levels.

then you just use the throttle control on the turbine to do what it's made to do, maintain a fixed RPM with a variable load.

the advantage/disadvantage with the simple triac controller is you get to shed the battery weight but you also now need a generator that can furnish peak power instead of average power and you're back to a heavy generator.


Funny you mention this.... I actually hold a patent for water cooled solidstate relays for use in my industry. I have a manifold design that holds three 120 amp 440 volt relays for 3 phase aplications. One of these systems can handle 40000 watts ALL day long. Maybe do a deal like MROLLA and have two electric motors. You could load the passenger side floor with a few hundres lbs of batteries for WOT.

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#3 IROC MAIDEN

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Here is the power supply/controller and manifold. The controller is Atmel CANBUS and is 12vdc. it would be pretty simple to just use a TPS for throttle input. No need for a huge speed controller its all right here.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff42/flyhiflylo/IMAG0508.jpg

less than 10lbs.

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#3 IROC MAIDEN

128

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

those crydom ssr's are pretty awesome. I've used them in a few spots before.

and yes, if you wanted to be dirty, there's no reason you can't step up the voltage, rectify it, smooth it and then shape it into a 3 phase square wave at whatever frequency you want to drive the motor optimally.

certainly the motor would scream at being driven with a square wave. you'd hear all the harmonics resonating. it would be like listening to a room full of old TV's whistling. WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIOOOO

Dogs would cry, kids would give me dirty looks (because their hearing isn't blown in that frequency range yet)

since battery weight is no longer a concern, we can use a higher voltage without adding battery weight. you could even predicatively ramp the turbine up and down to set the max voltage appropriately.

those SSR's top out at 125A. if you used a 360V system (wild guess, but close enough to real) you'd be able to drive 60-70HP into an electric motor continuously with water cooling.

you could use a pair of highlander electric rear differentials, they are fairly light and you'd get the desired power output. (they are 3 phase AC 277V i beleive, but they should put up to overvoltage. most electric motors do)

at this point we've only added to about 150lbs of stuff.

the turbine to drive the generator will only be about 100lbs. so if we can get the generator head to generate 110kW under 250lbs, it's all possible. any voltage is fine since it can be stepped up. of course, 300+V would be better since you can avoid finding transformers that will put up to 2000A of primary current.

129

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

there's something a bit off in my math. i'd need more than 110kW at the generator.

anyways, let's follow this path till we can disprove it.

you said:

Scotty wrote:

Now here is the super kicker, They have 120HP and 180HP versions out there.  Hope this info can help.

can i get more info? model numbers? weights?

heck, let's aim for the sky and then scale back down if we have to. what's the 180HP version?

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Lookie here... Looks like this cat is all up in this shit.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Williams-Gas-Tu … mp;vxp=mtr

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#3 IROC MAIDEN

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

I have seen the military gen sets (the larger ones) rated @ 170kW.

Try calling Mark Boyce... Like I said that guy knows a guy for sure.

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#3 IROC MAIDEN

132 (edited by Scotty 2012-07-09 02:42 PM)

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

If you went electric your car would NEVER break... LOL Just get some huge Wilwood 6 piston brakes.  I think you could just get some huge industrial 440v 3 phase motors and hook them 1:1 to a 2:70 diff from a boat car. Then throw the turbine in that passenger seat.  All wheel drive electric.

By the way.... Those relays with my manifold run @ 80C at 100% duty cycle. Crydom crapped a brick when I gave them the test data.  They even crapped a bigger brick when I told them it was less than 1oz a minute of water transfer to maintain that level. No fans no HUGE heatsinks. I think you could cool those with a dirt bike radiator and a fuel pump.. I use the tap water feeding the steam generator.

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#3 IROC MAIDEN

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

I don't know if it is useful or not but rotaryaviation makes gear reduction sets for driving propellers with high-revving wankels.  They have a 2.85:1 unit available.  Not sure of cost or if it would mind the load but they have been used successfully on 300-400hp motors. 

http://rotaryaviation.com/Gear_red_intro.htm

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Isn't the Corrvette throttle pedal fly-by wire?  I think my infinity FX-35 is too.

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#3 IROC MAIDEN

135

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Scotty wrote:

Isn't the Corrvette throttle pedal fly-by wire?  I think my infinity FX-35 is too.

most new cars are. not sure what you're getting at? the throttle on this setup will likely be fly by wire, i already make an adapter for the MKII MR2 to install an electronic pedal. i used them to swap 2gr-fe engines into MKII MR2s


I spent a bit more time looking at my constraints if i can't get a proper free turbine style turboshaft. it means that the turbine RPM pretty much has to stay fixed. but the load can still vary quite dramatically as long as there's a closed loop controller keeping the RPMs fixed.

the easy way to drive wheels with a fixed RPM input directly is with an IVT (infinitely variable transmission). but they aren't really available in the junkyard market yet (do prove me wrong if you can).

the available alternatives to an IVT are:
-hydrostatic drive
-series electric drive
-??? (anything else?)

but there's another way, if i use some other kind of motor to get the car up to the speed where the turboshaft can engage at it's fixed RPM it would be great.

initially i thought of a small electric motor, but it needs to get the car up to 20mph before the turbine can engage, this will still require at least 30hp if i want to ensure i can merge onto the track at a decent speed.

but then the perfect "what could possibly go wrong" idea came to me:
1)use that audi CVT, bolt on the smallest diesel motor i can find (must be diesel so i don't need two fuel tanks) (probably a 1.9L Volkswagen or so)
2)remove the turbo from the diesel motor, use bleed air from the turbine instead
3)make a reduction gear assembly to bring the turbine down to 4000-4200RPM output at 100% turbine speed (depending on the redline of the diesel motor)
4)put a clutch between the diesel motor and the turbine.

and there it is, at that point i'm thinking about 150+HP of turbine power and 100HP or so of diesel power (we'll over-boost it with bleed air.... just because)

the controller could be pretty tricky to design, but i think i'm up to the task. it should make for a resonably snappy car and even drivable on the street. the turbine can produce up to 100psi of boost

from the outside it's just going to sound like a diesel with the world's biggest turbo and frankly, it won't be that far off from the truth.

it won't be a simple fabrication, but it does allow me to use much easier to acquire turbine. plus, if i have turbine issues, i'll still have an anemic diesel engine i can keep racing with.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Marc wrote:
Scotty wrote:

Isn't the Corrvette throttle pedal fly-by wire?  I think my infinity FX-35 is too.

most new cars are. not sure what you're getting at? the throttle on this setup will likely be fly by wire, i already make an adapter for the MKII MR2 to install an electronic pedal. i used them to swap 2gr-fe engines into MKII MR2s


I spent a bit more time looking at my constraints if i can't get a proper free turbine style turboshaft. it means that the turbine RPM pretty much has to stay fixed. but the load can still vary quite dramatically as long as there's a closed loop controller keeping the RPMs fixed.

the easy way to drive wheels with a fixed RPM input directly is with an IVT (infinitely variable transmission). but they aren't really available in the junkyard market yet (do prove me wrong if you can).

the available alternatives to an IVT are:
-hydrostatic drive
-series electric drive
-??? (anything else?)

but there's another way, if i use some other kind of motor to get the car up to the speed where the turboshaft can engage at it's fixed RPM it would be great.

initially i thought of a small electric motor, but it needs to get the car up to 20mph before the turbine can engage, this will still require at least 30hp if i want to ensure i can merge onto the track at a decent speed.

but then the perfect "what could possibly go wrong" idea came to me:
1)use that audi CVT, bolt on the smallest diesel motor i can find (must be diesel so i don't need two fuel tanks) (probably a 1.9L Volkswagen or so)
2)remove the turbo from the diesel motor, use bleed air from the turbine instead
3)make a reduction gear assembly to bring the turbine down to 4000-4200RPM output at 100% turbine speed (depending on the redline of the diesel motor)
4)put a clutch between the diesel motor and the turbine.

and there it is, at that point i'm thinking about 150+HP of turbine power and 100HP or so of diesel power (we'll over-boost it with bleed air.... just because)

the controller could be pretty tricky to design, but i think i'm up to the task. it should make for a resonably snappy car and even drivable on the street. the turbine can produce up to 100psi of boost

from the outside it's just going to sound like a diesel with the world's biggest turbo and frankly, it won't be that far off from the truth.

it won't be a simple fabrication, but it does allow me to use much easier to acquire turbine. plus, if i have turbine issues, i'll still have an anemic diesel engine i can keep racing with.


Well there you have it.... Pretty simple. LOL

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#3 IROC MAIDEN

137 (edited by Marc 2012-07-10 08:04 AM)

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Scotty wrote:

Well there you have it.... Pretty simple. LOL

1.9L was wrong, VW has the 1.6L diesel 60HP 4 banger. perfect!

VW and Audi have often used the same bolt pattern so the engine might even bolt right up to the audi CVT. but at worse it takes a small adapter plate.

138

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

"six turning, four burning" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_B-36

maybe i need two smaller turbines so i can claim "One turning, Two burning" smile

139 (edited by Marc 2012-07-10 03:58 PM)

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

looks like it's coming together. the guy that was trading me the turbine for the radial has a 2nd turbine and does not want much extra over the traded radial.

so that's the plan,

two Tiernay TT10 turbines operating at a fixed RPM that have an electronically controlled clutch
one 1.6L naturally aspirated volkswagen diesel engine (with boost here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7nslBBMv1Y) fed turbine bleed air to get it's power rating up.
one audi Multitronic transmission
a drive by wire accelerator pedal and a fancy homebrewed electronic controller.

a dash of fancy fabrication (we might see the return of the goldwing boxes again!)

and i'll have an homage to the B-36 in a street legal Lemons car.

the diesel engine means i can even operate it in "stealth" mode when coming in and out of residential areas.

i can lose a bit of weight, the turbines will use the diesel engine as the starter, it should allow a quicker start since they should be able to be spooled by the diesel to near 100% operating speed.

should be pretty funny, when operating in stealth mode, the 1.6 will be naturally aspirated. when starting the turbines, it will be supercharged, when running 0-20mph it will be turbocharged and 20+mph it will be turbocharged and assisted directly.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Slow, faster, more, MORE, OMGWTFBBQ

Epic.

Volvo 544 - now with Chevy 3.9 power!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 112 races and counting
6/7/21

141

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

is anyone near Eveleth, Minnesota ?

I want this and the guy won't ship: http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Volkswagen-1 … 500wt_1156

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

If someone can get it to Road America, I can get it to Autobahn...  Or Chicagoland at least.

A&D: 2011 Autobahn, 2012 Gingerman, 2012 Road America, 2012 Autobahn II, 2013 Gator-O-Rama (True 24!)
Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
2013 Chubba Cheddar Enduro - Organizer's Choice, 2014 Doing Time in Joliet
http://www.facebook.com/#!/SirJackieSte … urseRacing

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

4.5 hour drive for me, and I couldn't do it this weekend anyway.  Maybe somebody up in the Twin Cities area?  Only about 3:15 from there.  I could store it for a while if needed.

Former chief proprietor and lead bad idea generator of Binford "More Power" Racing, 2010-2013: humbly self-proclaimed the best Chevy Beretta in Lemons history.

144

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

yeah, i can certainly pick i up at the autobahn race. I'm planning on being there. i might take you guys up on the storage proposal if we can get it closer.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Marc wrote:

the easy way to drive wheels with a fixed RPM input directly is with an IVT (infinitely variable transmission). but they aren't really available in the junkyard market yet (do prove me wrong if you can).

I just saw a rear-ended Mk1 Prius at the scrapyard a couple of months ago.  They're out there.

K Car Stalker

146

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

firegremlin wrote:
Marc wrote:

the easy way to drive wheels with a fixed RPM input directly is with an IVT (infinitely variable transmission). but they aren't really available in the junkyard market yet (do prove me wrong if you can).

I just saw a rear-ended Mk1 Prius at the scrapyard a couple of months ago.  They're out there.

prius uses two generator/motors to make an IVT. I can't use it in this application.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Marc wrote:

yeah, i can certainly pick i up at the autobahn race. I'm planning on being there. i might take you guys up on the storage proposal if we can get it closer.

So now you just need someone to pick it up and store it till the second half of August, delivering it to Road America.  From there I can haul it to Chicago, store it till October and bring it to Autobahn.

But then you won't be getting it till mid October.

A&D: 2011 Autobahn, 2012 Gingerman, 2012 Road America, 2012 Autobahn II, 2013 Gator-O-Rama (True 24!)
Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse Racing
2013 Chubba Cheddar Enduro - Organizer's Choice, 2014 Doing Time in Joliet
http://www.facebook.com/#!/SirJackieSte … urseRacing

148

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Racin_G73 wrote:
Marc wrote:

yeah, i can certainly pick i up at the autobahn race. I'm planning on being there. i might take you guys up on the storage proposal if we can get it closer.

So now you just need someone to pick it up and store it till the second half of August, delivering it to Road America.  From there I can haul it to Chicago, store it till October and bring it to Autobahn.

But then you won't be getting it till mid October.

that's still a 450mile hole in the delivery. as for time, It's ok. I've got to fix the 1987 MR2 (cracked header & shift linkage issues) and build a 1991 accord for the next race. i won't be working on it other than sourcing parts till then anyways.

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

Pm me, I might be able to help you out with a good 1.6 mechanical injected VW diesel. I am in western PA, and I can crate and ship freight with a little logistics.

Would it be easier to drop an entire VW FWD diesel engine/transmission/subframe assembly in the front of the MR2 and then not have to worry about moving the power through the turbine drive system?

150

Re: version 3.0: The MR2 gets a gas turbine engine (Project Outline)

killerken53 wrote:

Pm me, I might be able to help you out with a good 1.6 mechanical injected VW diesel. I am in western PA, and I can crate and ship freight with a little logistics.

Would it be easier to drop an entire VW FWD diesel engine/transmission/subframe assembly in the front of the MR2 and then not have to worry about moving the power through the turbine drive system?

Sounds great! sent you an e-mail through the board (check your trash/spam if you don't see it)

I'm not entirely against using a separate drive train entirely. the front of an MR2 is really tight, but i would not say no to having the extra parts on hand to figure out the viability.

Thanks!