26 (edited by jrbe 2012-07-12 04:49 AM)

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

There are 2 problems I see with shooting water in the brakes.

1 thermal shock if the nozzle pops off, hose breaks etc.   

2 if the water keeps the inside of the disc cool but the outside stays hot there could be a ton of internal stress waiting for a way out.  This may or may not be an issue depending on how the water/vapor does as it works its way through the vanes. 

Street cars dont have glowing or near glowing rotors when they drive through a puddle.  Turbo exhaust housings are thick cast iron, the water isnt hitting the exducer wheel.  They do crack, and they dont need to resist flying apart from a half ton of torque.

If you get the mist droplets fine enough i could see it definitely helping.  Its just the unknown part while racing with 100 other tools (me included) that freaks me out a bit.

Why not add bilge blowers to dump air in?  Im sure theres room in a car that big.  I definitely get the fact that with added power the brakes arent up to snuff.  On our car we have the biggest rotors and calipers that we can fit under 15" rims and they go into meltdown temps on track if we push too hard.  Thats with brembo rotors and endurance carbotec pads (lasted a race day n a half) and hawk HT-10 pads (lasted 2 hours.)

My ideas to help ours have been bilge blowers dumping air into the rotor and possibly one of these, http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/DataSheets/ds213.pdf I like this style because it is a closed loop system, if a valve fails to hold pressure you still have brakes.  Its not exactly simple to implement though with the bleeder return tubes.  It is nice because it is self bleeding.
Eventually we're doing a brake and rim size upgrade to fit the brakes to help as i think thats the only real way to fix it.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

Yes, we all think Olaaf is off his rocker for doing this.  But generally, the problems that people are presenting revolve around spraying water onto hot steel.  To that I reply - people race in the rain all the time.  Let's let him do this - there are more pressing issues that need to be addressed - like kill switches. 

So to Olaaf, I'm going to say that Crown Vic brake pads are only slightly different than Mustang pads.  And while you can't get endurance/high heat pads for a Vic, you can get them for a Mustang.  Otherwise, I look forward to watching steam come out of the wheels.

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

I will contact a few of the V8 supercar teams and get some technical info before I implement this (hopefully they will respond). Also, I just purchased a pair of books- “High Performance Brake Systems: Design, Selection, and Installation” and “Brake Handbook” both of which cover water-cooled brakes according to the online summary.

We already have 3” bilge blower fans, and Y-connectors to front 3” ducts. If we do the water, these will move to the rear. It’s actually very tight in the front- I had to flatten out the ducts pretty severely in order to get them to clear the tires at full lock (with 225 tires, and I would like to go wider eventually).

Flying Rat Motorsports- Turbo Taxi, RIP

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

Anarchyjet wrote:

Did you have brake fade because the fluid was boiling?  If not, you have a complex solution to a problem you don't have.

"A complex solution to a problem you don't have" would be a great slogan for the NYC Taxi.

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Re: Water Cooled Brakes

I suspect adding new/more ducting would be an easier fix than water cooling.  Perhaps punching some louvers on top of the quarter panels for vacuum?  S/F....Ken M

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

Anarchyjet wrote:

Did you have brake fade because the fluid was boiling?  If not, you have a complex solution to a problem you don't have.

Haven't you seen the video of when the brakes failed at Summit Point?

"She's a brick house" 57th out of 121 and 5th in Class C, There Goes the Neighborhood 2013
"PA Posse" 21st out of 96 and 2nd in Class C, Capitol Offense 2013.
"PA Posse" 29th out of 133 and Class C WINNER, Halloween Hooptiefest 2013
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32 (edited by jiggermyster 2012-07-13 12:30 PM)

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

RobL wrote:

Yes, we all think Olaaf is off his rocker for doing this.  But generally, the problems that people are presenting revolve around spraying water onto hot steel.  To that I reply - people race in the rain all the time.  Let's let him do this -...

Racing in the rain, everything is wet. Wet brakes heating up and wet brakes cooling down.
Not the same as:
"hmmm... pedal is getting really soft (as rotors approach 1000°), time to hit the sprinkler button." yikes

But, like you said... go for it! could just be the secret weapon that launches the car into the hay bales into a top contender!

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

RobL wrote:

Yes, we all think Olaaf is off his rocker for doing this.  But generally, the problems that people are presenting revolve around spraying water onto hot steel.  To that I reply - people race in the rain all the time.  Let's let him do this - there are more pressing issues that need to be addressed - like kill switches. 

So to Olaaf, I'm going to say that Crown Vic brake pads are only slightly different than Mustang pads.  And while you can't get endurance/high heat pads for a Vic, you can get them for a Mustang.  Otherwise, I look forward to watching steam come out of the wheels.

Carbotec will make them if they dont already have them. Pads are easy.

Team Lost in the Dark
Winner " I got screwed" and "Jay's dream car"
2012 Gulf region champs

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

jiggermyster wrote:

But, like you said... go for it! could just be the secret weapon that launches the car into the hay bales into a top contender!

In case you didn't realize, it's the same guy as this: http://youtu.be/zMBL2mlLVHE

--Rob Leone Schumacher Taxi Service
We won the IOE at Southern Discomfort.
We got screwed at The Real Hoopties of New Jersey  and we took cars down with us.
We got the curse at Capitol Offense but they wouldn't let us destroy the car.

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

echosixmike wrote:

I suspect adding new/more ducting would be an easier fix than water cooling.  Perhaps punching some louvers on top of the quarter panels for vacuum?  S/F....Ken M

certainly easier. not as awesome when outbraking someone with steam pouring out of the wheel wheels and the anti-lag (newly released firmware for the megasquirt) banging, though.

Flying Rat Motorsports- Turbo Taxi, RIP

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

Baron wrote:
RobL wrote:

Yes, we all think Olaaf is off his rocker for doing this.  But generally, the problems that people are presenting revolve around spraying water onto hot steel.  To that I reply - people race in the rain all the time.  Let's let him do this - there are more pressing issues that need to be addressed - like kill switches. 

So to Olaaf, I'm going to say that Crown Vic brake pads are only slightly different than Mustang pads.  And while you can't get endurance/high heat pads for a Vic, you can get them for a Mustang.  Otherwise, I look forward to watching steam come out of the wheels.

Carbotec will make them if they dont already have them. Pads are easy.

We have Carbotech RP-2's in the front and XP-8's in the rear.

Flying Rat Motorsports- Turbo Taxi, RIP

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

jiggermyster wrote:

Racing in the rain, everything is wet. Wet brakes heating up and wet brakes cooling down.
Not the same as:
"hmmm... pedal is getting really soft (as rotors approach 1000°), time to hit the sprinkler button." yikes

But, like you said... go for it! could just be the secret weapon that launches the car into the hay bales into a top contender!

water vaporizes very quickly at high temps. I'm not sure, but i would tend to believe that racing in the rain the rotors would be completely dry, from the centrifugal forces, and the vaporization effect of the hot steel and droplets of water.

just like when you spray some water on your hot welds, it boils/bubbles/vaporizes right off, and the steel is still very hot (depending on the amount of water, of course). i would be interested if there is any data on how much cooler a rotor will run after the braking zone and running to the next braking zone with ducts (50 degrees maybe?)

Flying Rat Motorsports- Turbo Taxi, RIP

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

olaaf wrote:
jiggermyster wrote:

Racing in the rain, everything is wet. Wet brakes heating up and wet brakes cooling down.
Not the same as:
"hmmm... pedal is getting really soft (as rotors approach 1000°), time to hit the sprinkler button." yikes

But, like you said... go for it! could just be the secret weapon that launches the car into the hay bales into a top contender!

water vaporizes very quickly at high temps. I'm not sure, but i would tend to believe that racing in the rain the rotors would be completely dry, from the centrifugal forces, and the vaporization effect of the hot steel and droplets of water.

just like when you spray some water on your hot welds, it boils/bubbles/vaporizes right off, and the steel is still very hot (depending on the amount of water, of course). i would be interested if there is any data on how much cooler a rotor will run after the braking zone and running to the next braking zone with ducts (50 degrees maybe?)

Mike Jr @carbotec said they have seen 200-300 degrees cooler with ducks.

Team Lost in the Dark
Winner " I got screwed" and "Jay's dream car"
2012 Gulf region champs

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

Baron wrote:

Mike Jr @carbotec said they have seen 200-300 degrees cooler with ducks.

wow! using the temp sticker things that change color at certain temps? So this is peak temp 200-300 cooler?

Flying Rat Motorsports- Turbo Taxi, RIP

40 (edited by Spinnetti 2012-07-13 03:40 PM)

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

RichVS wrote:

Forget the water.  Oil has the enthalpy of vaporization you're looking for.

Not only that, it cools better! (jk)...

If I were to do it (not), I'd have it closed loop and use convection to drive it from a header tank.

As for using "Ducks", that's kinda gross isn't it? How would they cool it? Steamed Duck? smile

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

olaaf wrote:
echosixmike wrote:

I suspect adding new/more ducting would be an easier fix than water cooling.  Perhaps punching some louvers on top of the quarter panels for vacuum?  S/F....Ken M

certainly easier. not as awesome when outbraking someone with steam pouring out of the wheel wheels and the anti-lag (newly released firmware for the megasquirt) banging, though.

Yep, getting flagged because they think you're on fire is definately the way to go! smile
S/F....Ken M

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

Wayyy back when road race guys used to mount fand on the wheels to pump cooling air through the brakes. If you check out Fred Puhn's 'How To Make Your Car Handle' there are some pictures of Corvair cooling fans mounted to a Corvette for this purpose. But sorry, no steam is generated that way.

Philosophy of life: old age and treachery will ALWAYS overcome youth, enthusiasm and cash. General smartass know it all beer swilling ne'er do well. Avoid eye contact with this person, best avoided completely. 2008 Animal House Racing CMP 'Most Likely To Leave In An Ambulance' 2009 Blind Rodent Racing CMP 2010 Team Galileo CMP 2011 Roundhouse Kick Racing CMP 2012 Road Kill Grill Racing CMP (x2)

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

Seems we could modify the wheels themselves to blow air over the brakes. Attach little air scoops to the spokes or whatever holes are available. Or spinners? They'd keep turning and blowing air during braking.

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

On our Civic (admittedly much lighter than a Crown Vic) we used some 3" diameter galvanized duct from Home Depot which is mounted on the front control arms and points right at the back of the caliper. That is connected to some 4" dryer duct that points out of the front of the car, the brakes feel MUCH better with this setup. We are running Porterfield R4E pads and at no time did we have brake fade, the pedal feels like a rock and the car will just about stand on its nose.  A little figuring puts us at ~97 MPH on CMP's front straight and through The Kink., probably 70 or so on the rest of the track except for the 25 MPH Turn 11 just after The Kink. We change out the brake fluid at the end of each day, but I sorta think that might be overkill. Still going to do it, though.

Philosophy of life: old age and treachery will ALWAYS overcome youth, enthusiasm and cash. General smartass know it all beer swilling ne'er do well. Avoid eye contact with this person, best avoided completely. 2008 Animal House Racing CMP 'Most Likely To Leave In An Ambulance' 2009 Blind Rodent Racing CMP 2010 Team Galileo CMP 2011 Roundhouse Kick Racing CMP 2012 Road Kill Grill Racing CMP (x2)

45 (edited by jrbe 2012-07-15 08:29 PM)

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

The problem is extra power means a lot of extra heat in the brakes.  Ducting may work for about stock power levels but when you add 1/3rd or more it becomes an issue.

m610 wrote:

Seems we could modify the wheels themselves to blow air over the brakes.

http://www.styleofspeed.com/images/land/supplement/rim/imsa-rim-01.jpg

balancing could get fun...or it could turn into Clarkson in his police fiat(?) vs the stig

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-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

Spinnetti wrote:

As for using "Ducks", that's kinda gross isn't it? How would they cool it? Steamed Duck? smile

You have to be willing to sacrifice some waterfowl for ultimate braking performance.

Former chief proprietor and lead bad idea generator of Binford "More Power" Racing, 2010-2013: humbly self-proclaimed the best Chevy Beretta in Lemons history.

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

Junkyard Dog wrote:

On our Civic (admittedly much lighter than a Crown Vic) we used some 3" diameter galvanized duct from Home Depot which is mounted on the front control arms and points right at the back of the caliper. That is connected to some 4" dryer duct that points out of the front of the car, the brakes feel MUCH better with this setup. We are running Porterfield R4E pads and at no time did we have brake fade, the pedal feels like a rock and the car will just about stand on its nose.  A little figuring puts us at ~97 MPH on CMP's front straight and through The Kink., probably 70 or so on the rest of the track except for the 25 MPH Turn 11 just after The Kink. We change out the brake fluid at the end of each day, but I sorta think that might be overkill. Still going to do it, though.

Pic of our car at Stafford in 2010... we had the same idea, one small off track excursion and you can see the trail we left:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e302/tommy861/IMG_2522.jpg

We gave up on them after that.....

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Re: Water Cooled Brakes

m610 wrote:

Seems we could modify the wheels themselves to blow air over the brakes. Attach little air scoops to the spokes or whatever holes are available. Or spinners? They'd keep turning and blowing air during braking.

There is some precedence for that approach.

http://dta-motorsport.com/used/wheel.jpg

Good Luck Everybody Else Racing. Yes, we have a fan page.

Re: Water Cooled Brakes

chicagozer wrote:
m610 wrote:

Seems we could modify the wheels themselves to blow air over the brakes. Attach little air scoops to the spokes or whatever holes are available. Or spinners? They'd keep turning and blowing air during braking.

There is some precedence for that approach.

yup, a bunch of cars have done similar. Even our daytona has something that when squinted at looks like it might move air.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/s720x720/536079_627926218952_1240666622_n.jpg

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Re: Water Cooled Brakes

chicagozer wrote:

There is some precedence for that approach.

I'm pretty sure that F1 did something with outside wheel brake ducting. They called them "rim shields" or something like that. So just hire a former F1 wheel engineer and you've got the problem solved. smile

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

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