Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

Pretty sure the new bolts were put in with all the correct precautions taken. The rods need to be machined for the ARP bolts anyway, so as far as I know they were honed too.

Yeah, I forgot to mention we do have a cheap Chinese rev limiter set to 5000rpm. When it hits that point it cut out every other spark. We typically shift around 4500rpm.

I wonder about that vibration. I really haven't driven the car this year except around the pits at Sears.

Constructor/Owner/Driver - Billy Beer Ford Futura

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

echosixmike wrote:

Did he hone the rods when he went to the ARP bolts?  Because when you torque the good stuff to it's preload, it's a metric shitload more than the factory junk....

Now the rod end is out of round and you pinch the bearing and............

S/F.....Ken M

That's looking like a pretty good theory.

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2012 Gulf region champs

28 (edited by rlchv70 2014-06-25 01:05 PM)

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

Post pics of the failed parts, it will help.

Edit:  Sorry, skipped right over them.

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

Parkwod60 wrote:

https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t1.0-9/998144_605358142878996_1178389030_n.jpg

You have oiling issues.
Look at the big- and small-ends of these rods. There is oil coking at each end.
Also, if you look at the bearings, ALL of the tin has been wiped off of the face of the bearing.
At most, you should only see a little copper showing at the center of the face, basically from about 5 o'clock to 7 o'clock and possibly 11 to 1 o'clock with the small end at 12 o'clock. (Too many clocks.) That is usually caused by cold starts and low oil pressure when it does show-up.

Those rod bearings are completely free of the bearing material. The copper is designed to provide a softer surface that the steel backing if you wear through the bearing tin. Also, the copper helps provide a place for metal debris that would scratch the crank journal a place to go.

If you look at the piston pin, there is coking around the pin, but not on the skirts. There is some on the crown from combustion heat, but that's where it stops.

My guess is that you cross-drill the crank throws, and then chamfer the feed holes.
You may also need an oil restrictor to the upper portions of the engine.

What do the main bearings look like? That will help diagnose if the oiling issue is before the crank or just at the rods.
Go talk to a race engine builder with those parts in hand, or a lot of pics.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
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Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

I think the improved rod bolt/ hone issue is worth running down and confirming, just to be sure.  Assumption being the mother of all C/F's and all that.

What do the rod journals on the crank look like?  Metal transfer from bearings?  How about the main bearings?  The oil holes in the main bearings fully lined up with the oil passages in the main saddles? 

IMO there has to be an oiling issue to the rods given the conditions you describe and assuming there was not an issue with the rod bolts..  I don't know enough about this particular type of engine to have any guesses about weaknesses specific to the engine.     

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2008/05 … gs-go-bad/

You're the guy looking at the parts, maybe this article can be useful.  It does mention vibration as being a possible reason for bearing failure due to distortion.  S/F.....Ken M

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

Actually, DelinquentRacer brings up a good point. The engine in my car has a restrictor in the oil feed to the head. If you lose that too much oil goes to the head and not enough to the rods/crank. Worth a check to see if you have one or if it's missing.

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32 (edited by rlchv70 2014-06-25 01:15 PM)

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

DelinquentRacer wrote:

You have oiling issues.

Not sure I agree.  Look at this picture.  Notice that the nut is backed off.  I would suspect that the nut was not tightened properly.

Post some pictures of the sister rods, rod bearings, crankshaft, and main bearings. 

You can often learn more from what didn't fail.  For example, if you have oil starvation issues, it will manifest on all bearings.

Edit:

It also looks like the nut backed off in this picture.

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

All of this pictures show either piston, rod or rod bolt failure.
Oiling did not cause any of that damage.

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

I did not take apart either of the motors that actually threw rods. I was told that the rod bolts on some of them seemed to be only finger tight though.

I think the important piece of the puzzle is the first motor, built mostly the same (same cam, same head, same exhaust, same intake, same read end ratio/redline) that DIDN"T throw a rod. The first catastrophic failure was a piston at 7000rpm, but the rods were all fine. That failure was at nearly the same amount of race miles as the most recent ka-blewy. I must admit, I did not take the rods off the crank, I just junked the whole bottom end. I did not replace the rod bolts.

The only major difference is we now have a manual transmission, we aren't cornering much harder. And the manual didn't destroy the motor in the 1st three races we started with it.

I am beginning to think maybe it was new rod bolts without honing the big end that did them both in. The first thrown rod had most likely several thousand road miles on it before we put it in the race car. But if it was professionally rebuilt I would suspect it used new rod bolts. I can say for certain that this most recent failure did.

I think the next race, if we stick with the 200 motor, will be bone stock again. Maybe with a cam, if we didn't destroy another one (that is the single most expensive part of these motors, everything else is dirt cheap). Maybe with the 2bbl cylinder head if that is salvageable.

Constructor/Owner/Driver - Billy Beer Ford Futura

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

safety wire the rod bolts?

Team Lost in the Dark
Winner " I got screwed" and "Jay's dream car"
2012 Gulf region champs

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

Baron wrote:

safety wire the rod bolts?

I'd say that's fixing the symptom instead of the problem.

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Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

rlchv70 wrote:
DelinquentRacer wrote:

You have oiling issues.

Not sure I agree.  Look at this picture.  Notice that the nut is backed off.  I would suspect that the nut was not tightened properly.

Post some pictures of the sister rods, rod bearings, crankshaft, and main bearings. 

You can often learn more from what didn't fail.  For example, if you have oil starvation issues, it will manifest on all bearings.

Edit:

It also looks like the nut backed off in this picture.


Its difficult to say, a nut will back off after a bearing spins when everything starts hammering/galling.

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Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

Team Infinniti wrote:

Its difficult to say, a nut will back off after a bearing spins when everything starts hammering/galling.

I've a dozen engines with thrown rods and they have never had the nuts backed off unless they weren't tightened properly. The bolts or caps will break first.

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

Did you measure the length of the rod bolts before and after they were torqued? If you measure the loose survivors are they longer than their torqued length?

If the engine had detonation you'd most likely see detonation "waves" in the carbon on top of the piston. I'd also go with revving too high as the cause. It will start stretching the rod material. Also when installing rod bolts burrs can hold up the bolt from seating properly and get pounded into place. I'd guess this isn't the root of the problem though here.

My guess is the bearings are not lubed as well as ideal and it's being revved too much. Honda's are super blow uppity because their stock "street" rev limit is too high for race use. Just because "they" or the "experts" do something and use it as a rule of thumb doesn't mean it is right and or will be fine under race duty.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

Nothing against the LeMoneering community, but have you brought up these questions on a forum specific to the engine? Every engine has its quirks, and if the Ford Six community is anything like the Slant 6 community, there are a dozen crazy old bastards who have spent decades building that same engine for drag racing and boost. Those guys could probably help with a higher degree of precision.

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

This isn't very scientific, but we have seen that some engines (e.g., Honda B, Chevy small-block, Toyota R) just love to throw rods in Lemons racing, and no magical cure (other than draconian redline enforcement) has been found for them. We  haven't seen many Ford Thriftpower 144/170/200/250 engines in Lemons (actually, the Billy Beer car is the only one that comes to mind, although I'm sure I'm missing at least one other), and knowledge gained from the drag-racing/street world isn't going to be very relevant for Lemons race conditions. Maybe it's time to try a torque-demon 300 and set the rev limiter at 2800!

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

No Phil, we are the only ones. Every early Mustang or Falcon that has shown up has had a V8 in it.

There is a Ford six specific forum out there, but you guys are more entertaining. Plus except for 1 crazy Australian guy everybody else out there is either drag racing them or just driving them on the street. It is very possible we are having oiling issues, but wouldn't you expect them to all blow the same way, after the same number of race miles then?

To reiterate, the first rod we threw had already been races for more than 1/.2 a weekend at Sears Point, the whole weekend at Buttonwillow in the 105+ heat, and another 1/2 weekend at Sears, before it blew in practice at the Sears Point sprint race.

The motor that we know we overrevved, because we ran a green flag lap with the C4 in 2nd instead of drive had the piston fall apart, and blow a hole in the cylinder, but the rods looked fine.

Constructor/Owner/Driver - Billy Beer Ford Futura

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

rlchv70 wrote:
DelinquentRacer wrote:

You have oiling issues.

Not sure I agree.  Look at this picture.  Notice that the nut is backed off.  I would suspect that the nut was not tightened properly.

Post some pictures of the sister rods, rod bearings, crankshaft, and main bearings. 

You can often learn more from what didn't fail.  For example, if you have oil starvation issues, it will manifest on all bearings.

Edit:

It also looks like the nut backed off in this picture.

I s'pose by posting I am essentially saying that the failure is caused by oiling problems.
Overheating the rod can cause a multitude of issues.
I've never seen a rod nut back-off on destroyed engine bits, either.
There is not enough info to come to a specific, diagnosis. Also, there are too many cooks in the kitchen.
One nice thing about over-budget engine builders is that they assemble the engines the same each time with, usually, proven techniques.

So, from the oil coking on the rod ends and the bearings that have NO tin/babbit layer, that engine has oiling issues. Those rods are seeing excessive heat.
Pull the bearing shells and the steel backs will be severely discolored from heat. That heat is only developed through excessive friction.
Not enough oil flow or not enough oil wedge/film (tight clearances).
Pics of the mains would help.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
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The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

Is anyone else wondering why Sensory Assault hasn't jumped in on this thread and suggested that the solution to your rod throwing problem would be a rotary swap?

Sorry For Party Racing! - 1985 Pontiac Firebird - Car #35

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45 (edited by mogren 2014-06-26 05:45 AM)

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

1) Use a good synthetic oil.
2) Make sure that the rods are round. Use the good bolts without washers and add blue locktite. Get the right torque value. 5/16 is about 38# normally .
Shift it at  5500 or less.
That 20-50  dino  oil is most of your problem.  No real race engines run dino oil.   Add annoil accumulator of some sort.  Mine cost less than 50$
Pics here,  http://gallery.oracool.net/v/album82/protech/Cheaps/

Mike Ogren, Racing in Florida, GA. 
352 4288-983
.

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

I think most of our old heaps would leak like sieves if we tried to run synthetic.

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Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

mogren wrote:

1) Use a good synthetic oil.
2) Make sure that the rods are round. Use the good bolts without washers and add blue locktite. Get the right torque value. 5/16 is about 38# normally .
Shift it at  5500 or less.
That 20-50  dino  oil is most of your problem.  No real race engines run dino oil.   Add annoil accumulator of some sort.  Mine cost less than 50$
Pics here,  http://gallery.oracool.net/v/album82/protech/Cheaps/

Pretty sure a Ford 200 six isn't considered a "real race engine"...  wink  We ran 20/50 dino oil in our gas motors for a couple races with no issues caused by the oil.

Nick
Focke Ewe racing -> Muttonheads! Racing -> Torque Junkies
86ish VW GTI...now with TDI Powah!

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

As you probably noticed, I'm a firm believer in not over-revving, but I think with your rev limiter set at 5000rpm and the shift points at 4500rpm or so you're not over-revving.  That's opinion of course but it doesn't sound too bad to me.

Check the back of your bearings, maybe Delinquent is right.  But the loosened nuts is a bad sign for whoever put the engine together.  I've also never seen that, though my rod-through-block exploded engine tear down exposure consists of two at this point.

Oh, and @rlchv70: only here would having a dozen blown engines be a sign of being qualified to give advice!  :-)

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Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

dculberson wrote:


Oh, and @rlchv70: only here would having a dozen blown engines be a sign of being qualified to give advice!  :-)

Thankfully, the experience was through durability testing engines at work and not personal experience.  smile

"Dino" oil [synthetics and conventional oils are both made from fossil fuels, it is just the purity of the base stock that changes] is just as good at providing protection as synthetics, EXCEPT under extreme circumstances.  That being said, the extra margin that it provides in our environment is probably worth it.  Normal running engine won't care, but if something goes wrong, it can provide enough extra protection to get an extra few laps.  The propensity of synthetic oil to increase leaks is partly an old wives tale.  They can have more detergents that will dissolve deposits and lead to possible leakage.  However, good conventional oils can do the same thing.

Loose rod bolts/nuts will lead to bearing failure.  The bearing failure then leads to the locally overheated oil, which can cause the oil coking seen here.

Again, to properly diagnose this, we need to see the other bearings in the system.

Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?

When you guys stop running Dino oil you will race a lot more often .  Do a quick search for coking temps for the oils.
How much better is synthetic?

Mike Ogren, Racing in Florida, GA. 
352 4288-983
.