Re: Why do we keep throwing rods?
Another possibility is a torque wrench out of calibration. S/F...Ken M
The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Tech → Why do we keep throwing rods?
Another possibility is a torque wrench out of calibration. S/F...Ken M
Just to dispel a common myth, oil accumulators (and other engine-longevity-enhancing devices) are not considered budget-exempt safety equipment. You have to ask me for a residual value with room for such stuff if you think you need it. In the case of most Class C cars (and some in B or A), I have no problem signing off on an accumulator, but you need to talk to me first.
I dunno. I think the guys in the Fiero who spun in the oil and got hit by the Volvo after the Fairmont blew up... Would consider an Accusump to be safety equipment, at least in this case
Another possibility is a torque wrench out of calibration. S/F...Ken M
That is a very good possibility, especially for a "cheap" torque wrench.
Another possibility on older bolts is general fatigue.
I had a set of SBF aftermarket high-perf. rod bolts fail to meet their torque value (using an accurate torque wrench)
and just keep stretching until they broke. These bolts had seen 100k miles, and would only tighten to about 75% of the
desired torque value.
Here's an interesting article about using a rod bolt stretch gauge.
Assuming legit ARP fasteners and not E-bay Chicom garbage, the fasteners should be GTG
Measuring rod bolt stretch is the ideal method, but a valid(correct) torque setting using the recommended lube should hold up just fine under the conditions we're discussing. If the OEM crap held up to 6500rpm, there's no reason that 5000rpm should kill superior hardware except that there were installation "issues" or there's some other problem causing the failure. If the fasteners are "finger tight" after failure, IMO, either they were not torqued properly or heating(oiling system failure=friction)plus load caused plastic deformation of the fastener. S/F....Ken M
The cooked/copper bearings you are seeing on that blown motor are the one from the motor that blew after 3 race weekends of use. The last motor blew after about 1 1/4 weekends of racing. We haven't looked inside yet. The first motor I pulled apart which just didn't have any compression left did show signs of bearing erosion as well, but it had 100k miles on it when we started the first race. The one that spun basically all of the rod bearings at once at the end of the dragstrip at Buttonwillow was also running at like 240 degrees at the time, and was a "rebuild" from someone's driveway. I didn't even bother pulling the rods off the first one that destroyed the piston.
Isn't the answer to longevity issues usually forced induction? That or we are looking at a 460 swap
Have you looked at your downshift revs? We blew a fresh rebuilt motor like that cause the rev limiter doesn't work during downshift. At Autobahn, if we downshift from 4th straight to 2nd at 90+ MPH the engine would spin around 7500+.
Have you looked at your downshift revs? We blew a fresh rebuilt motor like that cause the rev limiter doesn't work during downshift. At Autobahn, if we downshift from 4th straight to 2nd at 90+ MPH the engine would spin around 7500+.
A/k/a "the money shift."
coolhand454 wrote:Have you looked at your downshift revs? We blew a fresh rebuilt motor like that cause the rev limiter doesn't work during downshift. At Autobahn, if we downshift from 4th straight to 2nd at 90+ MPH the engine would spin around 7500+.
A/k/a "the money shift."
As in spraying money on the track in the way of connecting rods, oil, and tears
Yes we money shift.
We've spent the money for the "good stuff" and our old 3 cylinder Metro engine spun at 6500 RPM nonstop for 10 straight races without an issue. We also have used a "special" oil for our E30' but redline on our eta motor is only 5K and we mostly keep it at 4500 rpm. Still never an issue in 8 races on a 250,000 mile engine.
Yes... I know... Jinxed.
My opinion is most people should be spending less time rebuilding engines and more time swapping in an old used "new" motor. I see lots of "freshly" built motors blow up (not just here, but our local circle tracks, etc), and old "tired" engines just keep on running.
When you guys stop running Dino oil you will race a lot more often . Do a quick search for coking temps for the oils.
How much better is synthetic?
The amount unadulterated jackassery coming from even well regarded engine builders is staggering. Go over to yellow bullet and browse and see the amateur crap coming out of "professional" engine shops.
Bearings installed backwards (with a hammer!) rocker arm pads installed upside down, no cam lube on flat tappets, etc. And this is for builds that are documented in magazines and such.
You might be better randomly grabbing some dude out of the local HS shop class and giving him a copy of Chilton's and giving him a Hundo and some beer. Not that I would encourage such despoiling of American youth, lol. S/F....Ken M
I.. Myself.. I would figure, would fall into this category. Hence, we don't get inside our engines to prevent issues. I would just cause issues.
The amount unadulterated jackassery coming from even well regarded engine builders is staggering. Go over to yellow bullet and browse and see the amateur crap coming out of "professional" engine shops.
Bearings installed backwards (with a hammer!) rocker arm pads installed upside down, no cam lube on flat tappets, etc. And this is for builds that are documented in magazines and such.
You might be better randomly grabbing some dude out of the local HS shop class and giving him a copy of Chilton's and giving him a Hundo and some beer. Not that I would encourage such despoiling of American youth, lol. S/F....Ken M
We've spent the money for the "good stuff" and our old 3 cylinder Metro engine spun at 6500 RPM nonstop for 10 straight races without an issue. We also have used a "special" oil for our E30' but redline on our eta motor is only 5K and we mostly keep it at 4500 rpm. Still never an issue in 8 races on a 250,000 mile engine.
Yes... I know... Jinxed.
My opinion is most people should be spending less time rebuilding engines and more time swapping in an old used "new" motor. I see lots of "freshly" built motors blow up (not just here, but our local circle tracks, etc), and old "tired" engines just keep on running.
mogren wrote:When you guys stop running Dino oil you will race a lot more often . Do a quick search for coking temps for the oils.
How much better is synthetic?
This!!! ^^^
The amount unadulterated jackassery coming from even well regarded engine builders is staggering. Go over to yellow bullet and browse and see the amateur crap coming out of "professional" engine shops.
Bearings installed backwards (with a hammer!) rocker arm pads installed upside down, no cam lube on flat tappets, etc. And this is for builds that are documented in magazines and such.
You might be better randomly grabbing some dude out of the local HS shop class and giving him a copy of Chilton's and giving him a Hundo and some beer. Not that I would encourage such despoiling of American youth, lol. S/F....Ken M
Hey, the beer is for me. Just make sure it's good beer.
I'll watch over the "some dude" HS student and make sure it gets done right
...2) Manual transmission + engine braking = much more stress than running flat out all day with a C4 auto? The problem with this is The first motor backed with the stick lasted 3 race weekends, and 2 full races worth of laps...
You shouldn't be "engine braking". All braking should be done with the brakes. Rev match when you down shift to prevent upsetting the car while braking, and don't over-rev when you rev match. I assume your gear box has some pretty widely spaced gears. So, your team will need to be extra careful not to over rev when downshifting.
The amount unadulterated jackassery coming from even well regarded engine builders is staggering. Go over to yellow bullet and browse and see the amateur crap coming out of "professional" engine shops.
Bearings installed backwards (with a hammer!) rocker arm pads installed upside down, no cam lube on flat tappets, etc. And this is for builds that are documented in magazines and such.
You might be better randomly grabbing some dude out of the local HS shop class and giving him a copy of Chilton's and giving him a Hundo and some beer. Not that I would encourage such despoiling of American youth, lol. S/F....Ken M
Just read that thread.
Wow.
Just... wow.
Hey, stuff happens, it's how it's dealt with afterwards that separates the men from the boys(not US Navy style with fire hoses) But I mentioned it to point out that just because something is built by a "professional" doesn't make it right, or remove the need to double check it. It could easily be something as stupid as the guy got distracted while torquing the rod bolts and missed one(or more) Checklists and double checking everything is just sound practice.
Now that my engine builder retired, I do assembly myself, the investment in tooling to check the machinists work is cheaper than eating up these stupid expensive Mopar engines. But I'm single so there's no bitching about the basement being full of car parts and no silly questions about why are there valve guides in the freezer. S/F....Ken M
BTW, I vote for going 460 Ford, the world need more big blocks
You really know you're single if the parts are on the coffee table!
Glen Quagmire is my role model. There's nothing wrong with that! S/F....Ken M
I also agree with the new old motor solution. And this motor we just blown up wasn't built by a pro. There was some machine work done, then Dave, who took the car from me last year built the motor and swapped it in. You can be damn sure he double checked everything when putting it together. Right now that free car he got is getting pretty expensive.
Crazy Mike brought up several thing the other day when I talked to him. 1) Rods can and will grow with heat and revs, and just because you have enough clearance when checking a motor in the shop doesn't mean that at 5000rpm and 220 degrees doesn't mean a piston can't contact something. 2) Connecting rod side clearance. This is one I don't think we ever checked, we just assumed it was good enough for Ford, it'd be good enough with pistons and bearings.
I'm thinking oiling problems as well.
You say the oil pressure is 3 bar pegged all the time. Is that what your gauge maxes out at? If it is, how do you know what your real oil pressure is?
What's the oil pressure at idle with a fully warmed up motor? You should not have 3 bar oil pressure at idle on fully warmed up oil.
At what pressure does the oil pump relief valve open on this motor? Too thick an oil will push very little through the engine with most of the flow being dumped back in to the pan. You will see lots of pressure in this situation but the motor will have a tiny oil supply.
You want to run the thinnest oil possible that maintains sufficient pressure at the operating temperatures that you run so you get the most flow throughout the motor.
The amount unadulterated jackassery coming from even well regarded engine builders is staggering. Go over to yellow bullet and browse and see the amateur crap coming out of "professional" engine shops.
Bearings installed backwards (with a hammer!) rocker arm pads installed upside down, no cam lube on flat tappets, etc. And this is for builds that are documented in magazines and such.
You might be better randomly grabbing some dude out of the local HS shop class and giving him a copy of Chilton's and giving him a Hundo and some beer. Not that I would encourage such despoiling of American youth, lol. S/F....Ken M
A friend of mine dropped several Lemons cars' worth of dollars on a fresh Spec 944 engine from a builder he hadn't worked with previously but who had allegedly built a couple of other engines for his competitors.
Six laps into its first enduro with granny-shifting to ease the motor into service, Kaboom. No explanation from the builder, who suddenly stopped answering his phone.
I'm thinking oiling problems as well.
You say the oil pressure is 3 bar pegged all the time. Is that what your gauge maxes out at? If it is, how do you know what your real oil pressure is?
What's the oil pressure at idle with a fully warmed up motor? You should not have 3 bar oil pressure at idle on fully warmed up oil.At what pressure does the oil pump relief valve open on this motor? Too thick an oil will push very little through the engine with most of the flow being dumped back in to the pan. You will see lots of pressure in this situation but the motor will have a tiny oil supply.
You want to run the thinnest oil possible that maintains sufficient pressure at the operating temperatures that you run so you get the most flow throughout the motor.
I don't think I ever stated how much pressure we have, but we always seem to have plenty. We don't run too think of an oil, typically 15-40 Rotella diesel oil. The important thing to remember is we ran this motor at full race pace at Sears Point in the spring, when it was freshly built, and had no issues. We ran the one that blew earlier in 3 other races before it let go in practice.
I still prefer this animation
The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Tech → Why do we keep throwing rods?