Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

I like the rules as they stand. They're in place because of the HUGE gaps in skill, car's abilities, and safety. This is also an endurance event. the general Idea is to keep it clean and consistent. contact and off-track excursions are either a result of inconsistency or a consistent desire to be a dick, thus if it happens more than once, it usually means you need some cool-off time to calm the hell down, because it's just not worth it. I love to race, and I love to drive my heart out, but this is Lemons. if i don't train myself to remain cool and collected, even if I'm not visiting the judges I could make it a short day for my team, and that just ruins it for the rest of us.

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

My experience has been that a good driver can manage to drive for a full tank of gas, make very nice lap times and not get in trouble.

Guys that think they are good drivers and go wheels off or rub someone are not as good as the guys I'm talking about in the first statement.

Since there is no prerequisite to earning a Lemons license, they hold us pretty accountable.

Maintain car control, field and flag awareness and you will stay out of trouble.

Trying to stay aware of all the cars around you in a 100+ car field and watching the flag stations is no small feet. 

While I have yet to "Pass Under Yellow" I have gone wheels off and had a guy turn into me once.  I am not a bad ass choir boy driver myself.  If I take it a bit easier, I would probably stay out of trouble.  I'm just a bit to friendly with the gas pedal.

Ain't no bodies fault but mine.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

ecugrad wrote:

You want Lemons to be like everyone else and Lemons is based upon NOT being everyone else.

I like NOT being everyone else.

+1

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Spinnetti wrote:

Anyway, even though your ideas have merit, it will just hasten to convert Lemons into just another collection of A-type a-holes. Lets have fun while it lasts. When it turns into "real" racing, I'll dump this and go back to the SCCA where my IT car awaits returning to the track.

Well put

Pendejo Engineering "Captain" - 1991 Alfa 164
1983 Shaguar XJ-S V-12 "The Two Ton Miata"
1995 Mercedes S600 V-12  - First car ever CLAIMED by JAY!
1980 Maserati Quattroporte - Judge's Choice

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Serj wrote:

I like the rules as they stand. They're in place because of the HUGE gaps in skill, car's abilities, and safety. This is also an endurance event. the general Idea is to keep it clean and consistent. contact and off-track excursions are either a result of inconsistency or a consistent desire to be a dick, thus if it happens more than once, it usually means you need some cool-off time to calm the hell down, because it's just not worth it. I love to race, and I love to drive my heart out, but this is Lemons. if i don't train myself to remain cool and collected, even if I'm not visiting the judges I could make it a short day for my team, and that just ruins it for the rest of us.

That sums it up perfectly

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Thanks to Serj and Troy - this is the simple truth to put into memory (I should have before, but I didn't)

1.) The rules are in place because of the HUGE gaps in skill, car's abilities, safety and cheating. 

2.) Since there is no prerequisite to earning a Lemons license, drivers are held 100% accountable for their actions anytime they're in the car (inlcuding the pits)

3.) Maintain car control, field (cars in around you AND in your mirrors) and flag awareness (know where all the flag stations are) and you will stay out of trouble.

4.) Trying to stay aware of all the cars around you in a 100+ car field and watching the flag stations is no small feat - but you have to in order to receive no blag flags.

5.) Lemons is just the warm-up  for some serious drinking Sunday afternoon

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

So it seems that the biggest difference between Lemons and Chumpcar are the no contact and 4 wheels off rules. Chumpcar looks to be more like SCCA & NASA.

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

littledog wrote:
David Hawkins wrote:
Mulry wrote:

I don't think this post constitutes whining. Discussion of prospective changes to the betterment of all of us isn't whining. Complaining about wrongs done, slights slighted, and "unearned" BS and judging penalties are examples of whining. So would be "change rules or I take my ball and go home" kind of statements.

But IMHO, this doesn't seem so whiny to me.

and you're clearly in a minority in this thread.

- The cars out there differ *wildly* in mass/handling/grip - letting the metal-to-metal get frequent is going to end with Caprice's and CRX's needing surgical separation

More like the caprice would need a toothpick to get the CRX out of its grill

El Capitan de Substandard Racing -  Houston, Tx
2009 Yee Haw! It's Lemons Texas: 1973 Gremlin - Gremwow!
2010 Gator-O-Rama: 1973 Gremlin - Gremlin Express, Lassiez le Crapheaps Roulette - Gremlin - Most Heroic Fix
http://substandardracing.blogspot.com/

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

komododave wrote:
littledog wrote:
David Hawkins wrote:

and you're clearly in a minority in this thread.

- The cars out there differ *wildly* in mass/handling/grip - letting the metal-to-metal get frequent is going to end with Caprice's and CRX's needing surgical separation

More like the caprice would need a toothpick to get the CRX out of its grill

Douchebag drivers in big body cars?

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

sergio wrote:

So it seems that the biggest difference between Lemons and Chumpcar are the no contact and 4 wheels off rules. Chumpcar looks to be more like SCCA & NASA.

With zero bias, I totally agree with this statement.  Sawatthewheels rule changes make Lemons into Chumpcar. We ran Chumpcar recently, and while we had a great time, with only 22 starting cars the aggression level was high. I would hate to see what 100+ chumpcar drivers on the track together look like.

Keep Lemons the way it is. If you want Sawatthewheels rules, try Chumpcar and see if you still agree.

Chotus! Chotus! Chotus! Chotus!

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

ifb_mole wrote:

Thanks to Serj and Troy - this is the simple truth to put into memory (I should have before, but I didn't)

1.) The rules are in place because of the HUGE gaps in skill, car's abilities, safety and cheating. 

2.) Since there is no prerequisite to earning a Lemons license, drivers are held 100% accountable for their actions anytime they're in the car (inlcuding the pits)

3.) Maintain car control, field (cars in around you AND in your mirrors) and flag awareness (know where all the flag stations are) and you will stay out of trouble.

4.) Trying to stay aware of all the cars around you in a 100+ car field and watching the flag stations is no small feat - but you have to in order to receive no blag flags.

5.) Lemons is just the warm-up  for some serious drinking Sunday afternoon

You forgot the part about ramming into other cars because your team isn't winning.

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Steve W wrote:
sergio wrote:

So it seems that the biggest difference between Lemons and Chumpcar are the no contact and 4 wheels off rules. Chumpcar looks to be more like SCCA & NASA.

With zero bias, I totally agree with this statement.  Sawatthewheels rule changes make Lemons into Chumpcar. We ran Chumpcar recently, and while we had a great time, with only 22 starting cars the aggression level was high. I would hate to see what 100+ chumpcar drivers on the track together look like.

Keep Lemons the way it is. If you want Sawatthewheels rules, try Chumpcar and see if you still agree.

Now that I thought about it, the first couple of Lemons races were like Chumpcar, contact allowed. Jay didn't like where that was going so he changed the rules.

38 (edited by dan200 2010-02-13 07:29 AM)

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

WOW!  What a thread!!!

Like sawinatthewheel, my team wants to win the overall in a Lemons race though our reasoning is slightly different than most of you who race for the overall.  We run a old 300ZX and want to shatter the MYTH that a Z-car will never win at Lemons...

That being said I think my experience after running quite a few races is that sawinatthewheel has a lot to learn.

Racing can be dangerous and the rules are here to make things safer.  Please abide by them. There are mishaps on the track every times the Lemons run however the severity of the penalty is usually proportionate to level of danger the violator has placed on themselves and the rest of the people on the track.  If your punishments are severe, you earned it.

You are NOT gonna win this thing in a single corner but ya sure can lose it in one.  The Judges wisdom is vast.  They have seen it all before and make their decisions based experience which keeps all the participants safe from themselves and eachother. 

Please adjust your mentality to fit with the spirit of the event.  Stay safe, keep all four wheels on the track, don't bump people, and be careful.  With a few little adjustments to your driving styles ya will find the weekend to be much more fun and your time on the track to also be uninterrupted by a track official pointing his black flag at you. 

dan

(EDIT)  with the high speeds and low quality vehicles/drivers that hit the track at Lemons, BUMPING SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED.

Captain of The UNDERGROUND and Lemons SPAMBASSADOR

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

As a team that ran back in the Altamont days (man I sound like my Dad) I can tell you that the bumping tore up a lot of cars. When we finnished our second race (Oct. 07) the car was completely torn up. The head gasket was blown and the body was hammered. I told Jay that as much fun as this was if I had to build a new car every two events that the fun factor was going to fall off pretty quick. At the time nerf bars were allowed and the teams that had them used them to get by you because they weren't afraid of damage. I was one of the people who suggested that the nerf bars not be allowed anymore as a way to clean up the driving. Luckily Jay thought the same way and the current rules have come into play. Our team has been to see the Judges more times then I want to count but that is fine if it keeps the racing safe and I still get to play.

Wes Conklin
Team California Mille
2007 Eyetalian Class Champions
20+ races and still going strong, Finally won one. Pacific Northworst Winner 2012.

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

I think the subtlety that sawinatthewheel is talking about in his OP is getting lost here. He's not referring to bumping, which could be fairly defined as the intentional hitting of another's car with one's own car. He's talking about truly incidental contact -- minor and unintentional -- the kind that does not impact upon the trajectory of either car as they go down the track.

I disagree with serj's statement that "contact and off-track excursions are either a result of inconsistency or a consistent desire to be a dick." I think that's an overstatement. It is possible (and not even unlikely) to have minor, unintentional contact and 2-wheels off even if you are not a dick and are overall pretty consistent. We've all had 2-offs in practice or race conditions where that was the result of constantly changing conditions of racing, and it doesn't mean that we're all bad drivers when it happens. It just happens, and it happens even to the best drivers in the world when they're all alone on their F1 testing days.

I would agree with that statement if it were amended to say "frequent and/or repeated contact and off track excursions contact and off-track excursions are either a result of inconsistency or a consistent desire to be a dick."

I don't think that the OP's point was that we should trend towards all-out racing, but merely that marginally fewer black flags might result in increased enjoyment for all involved -- drivers, judges, staff, fans, etc.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Judge Jonny wrote:

You forgot the part about ramming into other cars because your team isn't winning.

Well points 2,3 and 4 would pretty well cover ramming into other cars , don't ya think Johnny?

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Mulry wrote:

marginally fewer black flags might result in increased enjoyment for all involved -- drivers, judges, staff, fans, etc.

Tell that to the spectators who spend the entire race watching the antics in the Penalty Box. They'd prefer that we start black-flagging drivers for failure to use turn signals, so they can watch the Studs & Spurs penalty one more time.

43 (edited by Speedycop 2010-02-13 03:56 PM)

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Drivers who know they are clearly at fault should quickly state that fact when they pull into the penalty box. Own your mistakes. Don't make another team pay for them. If it was just mutual contact from aggressive, close-quarters racing, that's different. You know it if you lose it in a turn and slide into another car that TRIES THEIR BEST to avoid you. I saw the Galant smack the Celica, though I wasn't in the penalty box to see if he admitted fault. The Celica should have been let back out ASAP, IMO. (Maybe it was, I dunno.) I saw the Bimmer coming WAAAY too hot into T1, and he still slid into my right rear quarter, even after I gave him the whole track to work with. I told Jay that the Bimmer driver would own up. He refused. Dick move. If one of my drivers is at fault in a penalty situation, and they don't own up right away, I'm yanking them. They know it, and thankfully it hasn't happened in 5 races.

One penalty can knock you out of the running, as we all know. Don't make others pay for your mistakes.

/soapbox

Captain: Speedycop & The Gang Of Outlaws -'94 Mark VIII (Least Horrible Yank Tank Stafford '09, NOLA '10) '61 Caddy (Org Choice-NL '09) '63 Tbird (EPIC Repair Failure-Gingerman '10, I Got Screwed-Summit Pt '10, I.O.E. WINNER Stafford '10!) '77 Lancia Scorpion (I.O.E. WINNER Joliet 2010!) '67 Galaxie 500 (Judges Choice-CMP '11)
Future Fleet: 1957 Ford Prefect 1942 Buick 1959 Bugeye Project GLCOAT

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Serj wrote:

I like the rules as they stand. They're in place because of the HUGE gaps in skill, car's abilities, and safety. This is also an endurance event. the general Idea is to keep it clean and consistent. contact and off-track excursions are either a result of inconsistency or a consistent desire to be a dick, thus if it happens more than once, it usually means you need some cool-off time to calm the hell down, because it's just not worth it. I love to race, and I love to drive my heart out, but this is Lemons. if i don't train myself to remain cool and collected, even if I'm not visiting the judges I could make it a short day for my team, and that just ruins it for the rest of us.

This says it all!

Dr. No-Disturbed Brilliant Mind behind the "take no prisoners" 007 Jaguar

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

(Thank Heavens! Someone else for the pitchforks and torches crowd to go after!)

Er, I mean +1.

Pat Mulry, TARP Racing #67

Mandatory disclaimer: all opinions expressed are mine alone & not those of 24HOL, its mgmt, sponsors, etc.

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Gee...1 post to speak out against the system.  Cowardice anyone?

Mod Squad Racing
http://twosrus.com

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

David Hawkins wrote:

Gee...1 post to speak out against the system.  Cowardice anyone?

i applaud Mr. NWracer choosing to pop his cherry on this forum by admitting he thinks the Rules are not as they should be in this particular series.  i suspect he will get to interact with Judge Jonny and Judge Murilee soon enough.  smile

that's true balls son, let's hope you figure out the real story sooner rather than later.

whatever it was i didn't do it
dorifto dogs E30 - gone but not forgotten

Lee Ho Fook's Racing E36

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

NWracer wrote:

If wheels go off to avoid an accident from some idiot overdriving in front of you, good job, if you have wheels off because YOU were the idiot overdriving, Black Flag away and beer sales go through the roof!

I only agree with the one point above copied.  If you have to leave the pavement to avoid the spin in front of you AND you show caution re-entering the track then all is as it should be.  I would rather people not have people's irrational fear of leaving the track cause a simple on track spin to turn into a 4 car disaster because nobody dodged it.

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

English much?

I should sleep.  Screw it, I'm going to go get drunk, it's my first night not working late on the car in 2 weeks.

El Capitan de los Bastardos De Lemons
1993 Linco Mark Ate
1957 Renault Dauphine
Driver with LemonSpeed's V6 Mustang

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

TheHeckler wrote:

English much?

I should sleep.  Screw it, I'm going to go get drunk, it's my first night not working late on the car in 2 weeks.

the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem.  english and sleep are both highly overrated.  cheers !!! smile

whatever it was i didn't do it
dorifto dogs E30 - gone but not forgotten

Lee Ho Fook's Racing E36