• Registered: 2009-06-20
  • Posts: 73

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

TheHeckler wrote:
NWracer wrote:

If wheels go off to avoid an accident from some idiot overdriving in front of you, good job, if you have wheels off because YOU were the idiot overdriving, Black Flag away and beer sales go through the roof!

I only agree with the one point above copied.  If you have to leave the pavement to avoid the spin in front of you AND you show caution re-entering the track then all is as it should be.  I would rather people not have people's irrational fear of leaving the track cause a simple on track spin to turn into a 4 car disaster because nobody dodged it.

they're called brakes, they're very effective at minimizing damage if used judiciously.

dodging things without understanding of your surroundings (like i imagine most lemoners would be doing) can be more dangerous that a few front to back bumps.

  • JThw8
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Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

gregtivo wrote:
TheHeckler wrote:
NWracer wrote:

If wheels go off to avoid an accident from some idiot overdriving in front of you, good job, if you have wheels off because YOU were the idiot overdriving, Black Flag away and beer sales go through the roof!

I only agree with the one point above copied.  If you have to leave the pavement to avoid the spin in front of you AND you show caution re-entering the track then all is as it should be.  I would rather people not have people's irrational fear of leaving the track cause a simple on track spin to turn into a 4 car disaster because nobody dodged it.

they're called brakes, they're very effective at minimizing damage if used judiciously.

dodging things without understanding of your surroundings (like i imagine most lemoners would be doing) can be more dangerous that a few front to back bumps.

Indeed, wheels into dirt without proper situational awareness and car control = why am I on my roof

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  • Serj
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Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Mulry wrote:

I think the subtlety that sawinatthewheel is talking about in his OP is getting lost here. He's not referring to bumping, which could be fairly defined as the intentional hitting of another's car with one's own car. He's talking about truly incidental contact -- minor and unintentional -- the kind that does not impact upon the trajectory of either car as they go down the track.

I disagree with serj's statement that "contact and off-track excursions are either a result of inconsistency or a consistent desire to be a dick." I think that's an overstatement. It is possible (and not even unlikely) to have minor, unintentional contact and 2-wheels off even if you are not a dick and are overall pretty consistent. We've all had 2-offs in practice or race conditions where that was the result of constantly changing conditions of racing, and it doesn't mean that we're all bad drivers when it happens. It just happens, and it happens even to the best drivers in the world when they're all alone on their F1 testing days.

I would agree with that statement if it were amended to say "frequent and/or repeated contact and off track excursions contact and off-track excursions are either a result of inconsistency or a consistent desire to be a dick."

I don't think that the OP's point was that we should trend towards all-out racing, but merely that marginally fewer black flags might result in increased enjoyment for all involved -- drivers, judges, staff, fans, etc.

hey Mulry; I did, in fact temper my statement a bit if you'll notice:

"contact and off-track excursions are either a result of inconsistency or a consistent desire to be a dick, thus if it happens more than once, it usually means you need some cool-off time to calm the hell down, because it's just not worth it."

I understand, and can ignore even an isolated incident that doesn't seem like a safety or driver-related issue. I firmly believe the corner workers, and the Judges are aware of those instances as well. This is a multi-tiered penalty system that's in place. Corner workers can decide that there wasn't a problem worth reporting, and in fact I'm positive that if they see something not so kosher, they keep a close close watch on you to see if you're alert, and aware, and not presenting a hazard. I distinctly remember the guy in T4 (the righty just after the lefty) at CMP staring right at me with a pair of binoculars as i went by. If they decide it was clear, obvious, and a bad move, they get you pulled in, where you talk to the Judges. You fess up, have a clear understanding of your mistake, and for the most part you/your team are clean and consistent, they'll either tell you to go back out or swap drivers. If you come back in more than once, they have some fun at your expense. If you're getting pulled in a 3rd or 4th time, I can almost guarantee you're talking to Jay before you go back out.

54 Reply by Spinnetti (edited by Spinnetti 2010-02-17 07:16 PM)

  • From: Frisco, Texas
  • Registered: 2009-05-02
  • Posts: 1,430

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

JThw8 wrote:
gregtivo wrote:
TheHeckler wrote:

I only agree with the one point above copied.  If you have to leave the pavement to avoid the spin in front of you AND you show caution re-entering the track then all is as it should be.  I would rather people not have people's irrational fear of leaving the track cause a simple on track spin to turn into a 4 car disaster because nobody dodged it.

they're called brakes, they're very effective at minimizing damage if used judiciously.

dodging things without understanding of your surroundings (like i imagine most lemoners would be doing) can be more dangerous that a few front to back bumps.

Indeed, wheels into dirt without proper situational awareness and car control = why am I on my roof

Heck, I've turfed it before in "real" racing and its no big deal if you keep your wits about yout, but if people would rather wreck than get a black flag for putting wheels off, they need their head examined! Gotta love us racer types - will argue pointless stuff forever on the interweb for our entertainment when not wrenching on our cars! smile

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  • From: Los Fucking Angeles
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,032

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

One MORE thing to throw on the fire. The corner workers do exercise judgment. Not every idiotic thing is called in.

I would suggest that all of you whining about our rules send at least one team member up to timing and scoring and have them shadow the race controller for 30 minutes.

You will get a whole new set of eyes from doing so. Translation: you all drive pretty bad. Especially you Californians

"This is the scene where I get shot," Bronson said. "I have these little squibs that explode to make it look like bullets are hitting." "Fascinating," said Bergman. "I never knew how they did that." "You mean," asked Bronson, "you don't use machine guns in your movies?"
  • JThw8
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Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Spinnetti wrote:
JThw8 wrote:
gregtivo wrote:

they're called brakes, they're very effective at minimizing damage if used judiciously.

dodging things without understanding of your surroundings (like i imagine most lemoners would be doing) can be more dangerous that a few front to back bumps.

Indeed, wheels into dirt without proper situational awareness and car control = why am I on my roof

Heck, I've turfed it before in "real" racing and its no big deal if you keep your wits about you, but if people would rather wreck than get a black flag for putting wheels off, they need their head examined! Gotta love us racer types - will argue pointless stuff forever on the interweb for our entertainment when not wrenching on our cars! smile

Therein lies the issue and the point I think others are making.  The experienced driver can keep their wits about them and wheels off is not a big deal.  There is a whoooole lot of inexperience on a Lemons track so you can't assume the driver will keep their wits about them.

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  • From: north of dallas
  • Registered: 2009-11-29
  • Posts: 264

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

seeing as how i am
1) driving somebody else's car
2) broke my ass over the last three weeks working on it
3) i value my health, and finally
4) i  have kids depending on me to make it back to the hacienda in one pc.

i will go off track to save the car, myself, and whoever is blocking the track. then i will cheerfully go visit the honorable judges, and let the chips fall wherever..............................

  • From: San Diego, CA
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
  • Posts: 1,640

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Judge Jonny wrote:

One MORE thing to throw on the fire. The corner workers do exercise judgment. Not every idiotic thing is called in.

That answers a longstanding question for me. I was wondering if the corner workers (who I assume also work races for other series) were able to use their discretion in calling in black-flaggable offenses or were just told that ANY contact or tires off = auto black flag.

In 5 races I have not personally received a black flag, even though I've had a couple of small offs and a bumper bump here and there. I wonder if I'm just lucky or if the corner workers knew there wasn't any "incident" worth reporting.

Our team has had a few black flags and all were justified (although at least one we did not realize until we watched the video afterwards). So far the black flag system has been fair to us, but who knows, I may be singing a different tune some other race!

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Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Judge Jonny wrote:

One MORE thing to throw on the fire. The corner workers do exercise judgment. Not every idiotic thing is called in.

I would suggest that all of you whining about our rules send at least one team member up to timing and scoring and have them shadow the race controller for 30 minutes.

You will get a whole new set of eyes from doing so. Translation: you all drive pretty bad. Especially you Californians

Wow I actually assumed right...















Californians are horrible drivers...

Sons of STIG
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  • From: Pleasanton, CA
  • Registered: 2009-09-02
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Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Lies, we're great drivers!

(what could go wrong?)

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Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

craznoe wrote:

Lies, we're great drivers!

(what could go wrong?)

NOT... from what I have seen... only thing worse than a Californian is a Katrina Victim... or some one with Mexico plates...

Sons of STIG
Judge Jonny, "So, what's the next formerly thought to be immune from winning that will steal the nickels?An MR2? A Fierro (ha ha ha)? A Datsun/Nissan Z? A Camaro?"
  • From: San Diego, CA
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Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Riktor wrote:
craznoe wrote:

Lies, we're great drivers!

(what could go wrong?)

NOT... from what I have seen... only thing worse than a Californian is ... some one with Mexico plates...

They are one in the same where I grew up.

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  • From: Davis, Ca
  • Registered: 2009-04-30
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Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Hey there's an ad for an addiction cure center on  the top of this page... what's up with that?    Where's my beer and my plasma cutter?

Gosh, my business card says 'Tech Tyrant'
  • Registered: 2010-02-21
  • Posts: 8

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Great thread! I understand the crazy rules and contstant black flags. And yeah we were guilty of choosing 4 off over contacting another car that ended up on its roof. However, I get the whole fun thing, but when when we got called in, we were asked "why are you here" and when we said we didnt know, the anser was "YOUR DONE!!! GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE!!! IT's OVER!!!". We didnt realize getting ejected from the event and race was part of the fun. We had a driver who never even made it into the car...An official who shall remain nameless refused to talk to us and told us to get out, however a visit to race control confirmed my worst fear. They hadn't called in any transgression that resulted in the latest blag flag on us but were in fact calling in penalties as fast as they could answer the radio, proving our ejection was unwarranted.

I'm still stunned at the number of penalties, but worse, how we were sent packing and other teams kept on racing. I guess Lemons has a lot of entries and they want to make sure future events have fewer entries.

Not sure how this whole Lemons things works it was our first event, with two drivers who had never raced. Perhaps cussing us out and refusing to talk to us is fun. Fun for them, not for us. We should have been racing, but instead we are home.  Our car doesnt have a scratch on it. No contact.

To be fair, we were warned by others who had done Lemons that it wasn't fun for them either, and that they wouldn't do it again.

We are pretty bummed out, we had a good car, and were looking forward to the other events. We are hoping the other crappy car series turns out to be a little less "fun" than Lemons!

  • Registered: 2009-07-31
  • Posts: 25

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

for future reference, the proper response to that question is " I went four off" .  Pretty simple.

  • Registered: 2010-02-21
  • Posts: 8

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Normally one does not get black flagged for avoiding an incident.... so when they ask "what did you do" , should we have have said, stayed four on and caused a crash! ???

  • From: Frisco, Texas
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  • Posts: 1,430

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

Hey folks, an epiphany: Want to see why they shouldn't make the rules more lenient? Head over to Jalopnik and watch the crash video collection. For the first time, I saw some driving I think is genuinely homicidal. A few were unfortunate and part of racing junkers, a couple just plain stupid or lack of experience, but whoever was driving that Diamante should be kicked out forever!

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Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

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  • Registered: 2009-07-31
  • Posts: 25

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

the judges don't care why you went off.  It's in the rules...if you go off, you come in. Don't wait for the black flag.

  • From: Bloomington, IN
  • Registered: 2009-08-14
  • Posts: 1,525

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

rayschnedi wrote:

the judges don't care why you went off.  It's in the rules...if you go off, you come in. Don't wait for the black flag.

One of our drivers did this at Nelsons last year.  No penalty, switch drivers and head back on course.  Pretty easy.

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  • Registered: 2010-02-21
  • Posts: 8

Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

And, BTW, we have no issue with the blag flag. . But being told to "GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE, YOUR DONE!!" was a little over the top.

We were not so fortunate to change drivers and go back out. We would have preferred the treatment they apparently give everyone else. But, to be fair, previous Lemons competitors had told us similiar horror stories and advised strongly against entering a Lemons race.. we should have listened!

  • bob-e
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Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

waaaaamburger and french cries for you

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  • Registered: 2009-05-04
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Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

wtfawdt wrote:

And, BTW, we have no issue with the blag flag. . But being told to "GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE, YOUR DONE!!" was a little over the top.

We were not so fortunate to change drivers and go back out. We would have preferred the treatment they apparently give everyone else. But, to be fair, previous Lemons competitors had told us similiar horror stories and advised strongly against entering a Lemons race.. we should have listened!

So you were chiorboys all day, then got called in for doing absolutely nothing wrong and were sent home?

riiiiiiiiighhhht.  Where's the whaaaambulance?

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  • Registered: 2009-10-25
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Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

I'm waiting with my popcorn and beer for the "judges" response...I have a feeling it will be somewhat different

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74 Reply by RobL (edited by RobL 2010-02-21 02:39 PM)

  • RobL
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Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

wtfawdt wrote:

And, BTW, we have no issue with the blag flag. . But being told to "GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE, YOUR DONE!!" was a little over the top.

Get closer to the real story and you might get more sympathy.

This doesn't seem like your first race - do you have video of your incident?

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  • Serj
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Re: An open letter to the Judiciary

WTFAWDT; sorry, I'm not buying this one either. there's a VERY short list of things that will take you from 0 black flags to race ejection. There's the "Why am I on my Roof?" rule, which, assuming you/a teammate could DRIVE back to the penalty box to get this treatment, that wasn't It. Second is zero Tolerance for Fuel Leaks, which, afaik, if someone spots it, you got ONE chance to fix it. You put it back out there and the leak shows up again, you're done. Again, doesn't sound like it. bitching and whining is sadly pretty common among 'experienced' racers that believe they are god's gift to driving, so if that was the case, we'd have probably about 50% attrition rate over the 2.4 rule. Now, if you went 4-off, sped through the pits blatantly too fast, nearly ran over race staff/competitors on your way through the paddock to the penalty box, then bitched your innocence to the first official walking up to your car, I could DEFINITELY see that going from 0 to Trailer in one visit. I've spoken to, hung out with, and have watched penalties at these races since 07, and if you're here to tell us some random judge/official with no name approached your car on your first visit to the box and told you to trailer it in very harsh language, you either did something VERY VERY VERY bad, or you're lying. Choose very very very VERY carefully in voicing your defense. I want to hear this one.