51 (edited by steve 2018-05-10 05:35 AM)

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

Sorry guys I would never keep receipts around in case my wife were to find them and know what I really spent on the car........

Although if I build the car that I want to build i think I can get in for under $3500, class C car

2010, 26th @ CMP, 2011, 10th & 5th at CMP, 2012? (MIA), 2013 Spring CMP, 53rd, 2013 Fall CMP 44th, 2014 Barber 14th, 2014 CMP 46th, 2015 CMP 57th, 2015 CMP 80th, 2016 CMP 16th, 3rd in B class, Winner Judges choice, and First car under 2.0 liter Alex's lemon aide stand winner. 2017 WRL, Road Atlanta 43rd, 2017 NCM 9th O/A , 1st in B class, 2018 CMP 13th O/A 3rd in Class B

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

Fishah wrote:
cheseroo wrote:
Fishah wrote:

Still waiting patiently smile

There does exist a situation that you likely are not privy to that has been consuming his time.

The world operates on my schedule dude.

Took me a while to dig through receipts plus got life stuff in the way.

But for the 1993 Chrysler LeBaron we brought to Houston

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_RJ6OzEBGk


$250 car @ public tow yard auction

$340 44' 1.75x120 DOM tubing

$20 for~40lbs of spreader plate/misc steel @ $.50lb from used metal supplier

Sub. $610


??Gas & welding wire??

Parts:

MOTORADT16Radiator Cap Wholesaler Closeout -- 30 Day Warranty$ 1.82$ 0.001$ 1.82
ULTRA-POWER5S1029Temperature Sender / Sensor$ 7.53$ 0.001$ 7.53
CARDONE SELECT132412 (132412:P)Master CylinderWholesaler Closeout - Private Label Pkg. - 30 Day Warranty$ 17.60$ 0.001$ 17.60
ATPTF102 (TF-102)Filter$ 3.95$ 0.001$ 3.95
PA CARGO 77710E Filter $ 3.43$ 0.001$ 3.43
CHAMPION LABSG6361 (G6361:P)Fuel Filter Wholesaler Closeout - Private Label Pkg. - 30 Day Warranty$ 2.87$ 0.001$ 2.87
ITGOC4670Oil Filter Wholesaler Closeout -- 30 Day Warranty$ 1.40$ 0.001$ 1.40
MOTORAD 240192 {#19114481, 24092} Standard 192F Info OE Temp Wholesaler Closeout - Private Label Pkg. - 30 Day Warranty] ($2.20)

5% discount code

$12.98 shipping

SUB $51.74


$12.14 x2 Wal Mart ATF

$14.64  Rotella Oil

$4.94 Permatex RTV

$20.75  LKQ Seat Track Each

SUB $52.47


<$100 race Seat Used Cobra FIA label Craigslist. It was more like a $50 as-purchased seat but I'll stick with an easier to find $100 for calcs here.

$89 for G force belts but I coulda got them cheaper here $29.99 + $11 shipping Gforce 2" belts closeout https://www.ebay.com/itm/G-FORCE-Racing … 1144633860

$29.95 Cutoff Switch w/ alternator protection https://www.racerpartswholesale.com/pro … isconnects

$10 Battery cable extension (old jumper cables Craigslist [actually Veteran Thrift Store])

$3.98 Copper Battery Cable Lugs https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/produ … ugs-1-pair (I grab a blister pack at the tractor supply outside the gate at Buttonwillow when I'm there)

+$100 Misc Tax and /or other Shipping

SUB $332.93
(+$610 +$51.74 +$52.47)

$1,047.14 to get on the track from scratch. And that's fudging it some in the high direction. 

Yes I bought spares (Complete rock auto total of both used and unused spares/seals/belts was $127.91 or $76.17 more than listed here. I also bought but did not install a shift kit for the transmission which was like $20 off ebay) and yes we needed to put on some front brake pads to finish the weekend (FRICTION MASTER    MX559 (MX559:P)    Brake Pad Wholesaler Closeout - Private Label Pkg. - 30 Day Warranty    $ 4.81    $ 0.00    1    $ 4.81)

I'd say my average out of pocket cash expense for building a car is about $1500, though.

53 (edited by DirtyDuc 2018-05-16 10:45 PM)

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

So it sounds like the difference between inexpensive and expensive Lemons has to do with perceived safety and car choice.

Pick a class a car, have class a prices. Pick a class c car and have class c prices.

Unless your class c car manufacturer went under water in the sixties.

That guy

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

Sadly a car like that in Cleveland would be $2000 or more.

Also I'm suspect of $30 harness and $50 used FIA seat. Those are screaming counterfit to me.

But even a more realistic $400 for a used seat and the harness thats still about $2,000


sigh.....Oh to be competent enough to make a cage. And to live somewhere where cars are disposable.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

I have bought several FIA seats for between $50 & $100.  I'll admit the upholstery may not always be perfect but they are legit seats. The key is to be looking for stuff like this well before you need it.  If you know you are building another car next year, start looking now.  Personally, I wouldn't go the $30 harness route but the difference between $30 and $100 doesn't take away from the point being made here.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita" 
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)
1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless)
1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites) (Sold -> Houston.  Gone and forgotten)

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

I looked for over a year for ANY legal seat under $150 on CL, dirt track forums, etc.  Found one and it was sold the same day listed.  This was searching the entirety of the Chicagoland area.

57 (edited by Guildenstern 2018-05-17 08:19 AM)

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

The point being you can buy running cars for $200 in SoCal.

And often times Weird Shit for cheap too.

To do as little work as Spank did on that build (basically Fluids and a brake job) someone in a garbage state like mine would need to spend an order of magnitude more on the car than that.

I mean we don't even have inspections in Ohio. The kind of rolling death trap that people consider a GOOD used car would turn your hair green.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!"
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata.

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

Why build when you can buy for $500?

https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/cto/d/ … 23668.html

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
16x Loser with the Celica. 5 times loser in other fine machines

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

Brett85p wrote:

Why build when you can buy for $500?

https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/cto/d/ … 23668.html

Only if you were closer to Connecticut :-(

a lethal overdose of brick wall, taken while under the influence of a Ferrari and a bottle of tequila.

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

Somebody wrote:
Brett85p wrote:

Why build when you can buy for $500?

https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/cto/d/ … 23668.html

Only if you were closer to Connecticut :-(

Disclaimer, not mine but what great way to work out the bugs...drive it home smile

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
16x Loser with the Celica. 5 times loser in other fine machines

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

Like a lot of things, building the next car can get cheaper as you are more experienced but also Spank has either some mad contacts or better scavenging skills than a lot of us.  I would kill for his DOM prices.  I would love to find used gear like seats (I have done bargain bin harnesses).  At the end of the day we spend up front more for one of a few reasons:

Spend now or fear massive downtime
We can't jump on that $50 seat deal because it is gone by time we get off work
We plan to run that car/van/halftrack for many years at it seems prudent to spend now or spend later.

Also, I am brakes snob so we spend a lot on upgrading brakes but it has thus far all been OEM (for some car) upgrades...but I will buy ST43 pads if offered for the front of every vehicle I race because they are that good.

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

Spank wrote:
Fishah wrote:
cheseroo wrote:

There does exist a situation that you likely are not privy to that has been consuming his time.

The world operates on my schedule dude.

Took me a while to dig through receipts plus got life stuff in the way.

But for the 1993 Chrysler LeBaron we brought to Houston

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_RJ6OzEBGk


$250 car @ public tow yard auction

$340 44' 1.75x120 DOM tubing

$20 for~40lbs of spreader plate/misc steel @ $.50lb from used metal supplier

Sub. $610


??Gas & welding wire??

Parts:

MOTORADT16Radiator Cap Wholesaler Closeout -- 30 Day Warranty$ 1.82$ 0.001$ 1.82
ULTRA-POWER5S1029Temperature Sender / Sensor$ 7.53$ 0.001$ 7.53
CARDONE SELECT132412 (132412:P)Master CylinderWholesaler Closeout - Private Label Pkg. - 30 Day Warranty$ 17.60$ 0.001$ 17.60
ATPTF102 (TF-102)Filter$ 3.95$ 0.001$ 3.95
PA CARGO 77710E Filter $ 3.43$ 0.001$ 3.43
CHAMPION LABSG6361 (G6361:P)Fuel Filter Wholesaler Closeout - Private Label Pkg. - 30 Day Warranty$ 2.87$ 0.001$ 2.87
ITGOC4670Oil Filter Wholesaler Closeout -- 30 Day Warranty$ 1.40$ 0.001$ 1.40
MOTORAD 240192 {#19114481, 24092} Standard 192F Info OE Temp Wholesaler Closeout - Private Label Pkg. - 30 Day Warranty] ($2.20)

5% discount code

$12.98 shipping

SUB $51.74


$12.14 x2 Wal Mart ATF

$14.64  Rotella Oil

$4.94 Permatex RTV

$20.75  LKQ Seat Track Each

SUB $52.47


<$100 race Seat Used Cobra FIA label Craigslist. It was more like a $50 as-purchased seat but I'll stick with an easier to find $100 for calcs here.

$89 for G force belts but I coulda got them cheaper here $29.99 + $11 shipping Gforce 2" belts closeout https://www.ebay.com/itm/G-FORCE-Racing … 1144633860

$29.95 Cutoff Switch w/ alternator protection https://www.racerpartswholesale.com/pro … isconnects

$10 Battery cable extension (old jumper cables Craigslist [actually Veteran Thrift Store])

$3.98 Copper Battery Cable Lugs https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/produ … ugs-1-pair (I grab a blister pack at the tractor supply outside the gate at Buttonwillow when I'm there)

+$100 Misc Tax and /or other Shipping

SUB $332.93
(+$610 +$51.74 +$52.47)

$1,047.14 to get on the track from scratch. And that's fudging it some in the high direction. 

Yes I bought spares (Complete rock auto total of both used and unused spares/seals/belts was $127.91 or $76.17 more than listed here. I also bought but did not install a shift kit for the transmission which was like $20 off ebay) and yes we needed to put on some front brake pads to finish the weekend (FRICTION MASTER    MX559 (MX559:P)    Brake Pad Wholesaler Closeout - Private Label Pkg. - 30 Day Warranty    $ 4.81    $ 0.00    1    $ 4.81)

I'd say my average out of pocket cash expense for building a car is about $1500, though.

Very impressive. Just know that you're an abberation and not the norm.

If the high end of a new build is $7k, and the low end is $2k, then $5k sounds like a good average for newbies to budget for.

#928 Porsche 928 - West German Pushrodders

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

Spank is most certainly an aberration.

eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

therood wrote:

Spank is most certainly an aberration.

What? He seems normal enough to me.

1982 MG Metro 1300: IOE 2015 Pacific Northworst GP, Longest Distance 2010 Cd'L Box Wine Country Classic
1980 KV Mini 1: Worst of Show and Fright Pig Supremo 2009 Concours d'Lemons
1978 H Special: Second-Round Elimination 2010 Lemons Pinewood Derby at Sears Pointless
1967 SAAB 96: IOE 2012 Pacific Northworst GP

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

I think the point of this thread is that anyone can build a Lemons car for less than the $5k that has somehow become the suggested norm for a build.  I have raced at least 7 different cars that were probably put together for less than $2k and had a hell of a lot of fun doing it.  A couple just had the safety equipment put in and raced as they were bought.  I am pretty sure one Renault didn't even have the oil changed, nor was it driven before the race. These were all class C cars.

If you want an example of an A class car, go look at the Eyesore Miata and tell me how they could possibly have spent $5k on that thing.  There might be a lot of cheatonium somewhere in that car, but I have no idea where it would be.

There is a lot more sweat equity and junkyard ingenuity required to keep the budget low.  Personally I choose the easy button sometimes.

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

The idea that anyone can build a Lemons car for less than $5000 is nearsighted.  Any experienced team can build for less than $5000 (not saying they want to, but they can).  A new team generally lacks the resources to build cheaper, especially if they want a successful weekend.  I suspect the $5k number comes in response to new teams asking about costs, and it is a cautionary tale from the veteran teams.  I know we spent far more on our first race than planned.  I'm positive it was over $3k, and we had found a $500 previously raced Lemons car with a nearly legal cage.
 
The problem is that new teams don't know what they don't know.  A $2k car in the planning quickly becomes much more expensive as the little stuff creeps in.  Since everything is a surprise, it must be purchased NOW, and new teams pay a premium.  That is if they even make it to the track...

Apparently my name is really "Craigers".  Who knew?
We might be yellow, but at least we are slow
I'm a WINNER!

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

Well for what its worth we spent ABOUT....$1000 on our first Lemons car it was an ex-circle track car.

Ford Escort "killer bee"  $500
Replace windshield $300
New belts $100

We got a local garage to buy us new brakes and tires for the car, nothing special but if I had to buy them myself add another $1000 for everything.

The car was built by the Dad for his daughter to race so the cage was VERY nice and much more then needed to be legal.  As many others have said check the rules before you buy, a lot of circle track cars are...not up to Lemons.

Our Camaro was a bit more..

1989 Camaro $500
Autopower cage $800 (on sale!!)
Bulter race seat $50  (used)
Belts $120
SSBC brake calipers $320
Cheaty radiator $200
Convert rear drums to IROC disc brakes $300
Firebird wheels $100

The same garage donated tires and brake parts for this car as well.  As most of you know we kept this car for a number of years adding more cheaty stuff as time went on (lexan rear window, fiberglass hood, 350 engine, etc...)  and we updated the car to keep legal with rule changes, but we honestly never spent more then $1000 a year to keep it up to snuff.

The vette....is going to be more sadly...but hey its going to be a lot more fun to race...right?????!?!

Team Sucker Punch Camaro (Tiger striped #38)  (1989-2017 RIP old friend)
Winner Org Choice award Were the Elite Meet to Cheat 2015
1984 Corvette WIP not raced yet.

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

I like buying cool “race car” type stuff...so the Acura may be a bit overkilled in some aspects. But, I also built it as a multi-purpose ride. It could do auto-x, time attack, endurance...WRL, AER maybe?? whatever series that’s relatively close in proximity at the time. We are talking about entering it in the USCA Optima street car challenge next year. Immediate deduction for lack of interior, but oh well.

The topic of multiple cars has been talked about, but geez, this one eats enough money. I’d hate to think about fielding a fleet.

Team BAD Company Endurance
Acura RSX #0
4 times losers, and counting...
"I got screwed" winners? 2018 Cure for Gingervitis, 5th on laps overall 2018 Elite meet to Cheat

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

Rustyjeep wrote:

I like buying cool “race car” type stuff...so the Acura may be a bit overkilled in some aspects. But, I also built it as a multi-purpose ride. It could do auto-x, time attack, endurance...WRL, AER maybe?? whatever series that’s relatively close in proximity at the time. We are talking about entering it in the USCA Optima street car challenge next year. Immediate deduction for lack of interior, but oh well.

The topic of multiple cars has been talked about, but geez, this one eats enough money. I’d hate to think about fielding a fleet.

http://www.grmchallenge.com

"Crapcan Clause:
24 Hours of Lemons race cars are automagically legal, provided they meet the spirit and intent of our rules."

Apocalyptic Racing - Occupy Pit Lane racing
Racing the "Toylet" Toyota Celica powered by Chevrolet Ecotec.
16x Loser with the Celica. 5 times loser in other fine machines

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

Brett85p wrote:

http://www.grmchallenge.com

"Crapcan Clause:
24 Hours of Lemons race cars are automagically legal, provided they meet the spirit and intent of our rules."



So. Far. Away. Otherwise, I have kept an eye on that for a few years now.

It's hard enough coordinating a few weekends a year at close proximity tracks, let alone across the country. Don't get me wrong, I'd love it...lol.

Team BAD Company Endurance
Acura RSX #0
4 times losers, and counting...
"I got screwed" winners? 2018 Cure for Gingervitis, 5th on laps overall 2018 Elite meet to Cheat

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

Guildenstern wrote:

sigh.....Oh to be competent enough to make a cage. And to live somewhere where cars are disposable.

it's less difficult than you think! buy a welder, learn to use it, then make friends with someone who has a bender.

"THE WONDERMENT CONSORTIUM"
Nothing's for certain, it could always go wrong. Come in when it's raining, go on out when it's gone.

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

I can't explain roll cage tubing prices. It always seems cheaper and easier to get in California. It's in the $5/ft range if you can find it.

Here's a different economics lesson:
We had 344 laps at MSR to the LeBarron's 135.

That's 250% more laps/seat time!

I try to get more mileage out of our race dollars. Literally, more laps on track.

We were at COTA a couple years ago and the entry fees were $2200 or 2300 for 2 8 hour days. That's $137.50 an hour.

A buddy was there and they lost a water pump belt and didn't have a spare $10 belt! That cost them $10 plus an hour and half or so of lost track time resulting in a $10+(137.5X1.5) = $216.50 belt. This is what I see many teams doing.

Now lets look at $/lap:

We snapped the crankshaft at Barber the race before MSR and built a fresh bottom end. That was about $350.00. We warrantied out our crappy house brand O'Reilly's clutch which is now a "Power Torque." They used to be Valeo clutches and lasted a LONG time. We've raced on those for almost 10 year. Call it $500 for the fresh motor and clutch swap. 6 tires were $150 each for a $900 total, new brake pads for because we hadn't changed them in YEARS and the old ones still look awesome, $400. New oil gauge with warning light and some other gauges maybe $100.

Eng/Clutch: $500
Tire:              $900
Brakes:        $400
Gauges:      $100
Other:           $100
Total             $2000
Laps:               344
$/lap:             $5.81

Le Baron   $1047.14
Laps:              135
$/Lap:            $7.75

The Le Baron was 150% more per lap than the Z.

We spent a lot prepping for MSR.

Our following race at Road Atlanta (4 weeks later), all we did was buy 4 tires and change the oil for about $700. That was all going great for about 12 hours when we thought we lost the whole transmission. Turned out to be the axle shaft but anyway we were in second up to that point and completed 259 laps.

Road Atlanta:
$/lap = $700/259 = $2.70

Fuel and entry fees are not in any of these numbers. We typically burn 8-10 gallons per hour on a dry track. Towing I get about 10 mpg. There are a lots of other expenses going into race weekends than just the car.

As a team I think we spent more on accommodations and travel than the race at Road Atlanta.

He wad 5 drivers at MSR so the entry fee was $1475 compared to Road Atlanta with 4.
We knew  going into MSR  we would like to do Road Atlanta, Barber and NOLA all close together plus major holidays limiting repair times in the middle. So we tried to do as much prep as possible to reduce downtime between races for MSR. In those 4 races, we took out 2 transmissions, 2 oil pumps and pulled off 2 top 10 finishes.

We got a big ass chewing at NOLA plus an additional penalty Sunday morning at NOLA, the oil pump crapped out shortly after that. Midday 5th gear sounded like a "bag of hammers," and we still managed to finish 7th running several hours in just 4th gear.

Troy

#35 LRE
1973 Datsun 240Z

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

For more fun mathematical gymnastics, calculate the average price per lap for the entire entry list at a given race, then consider the cost to the community of causing a full-course caution.

Assuming, of course, that laps under yellow provide no utility to the members of the community.  I have been in situations where FCYs are like gold, but that it is more the exception than the rule.

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

FCY are often my fastest laps because I don't have to worry about someone dive bombing or chopping me and I can drive some sort of line.

As for $ per seat timelaps... Why bother having the $500 rule at all? Let's just all go buy crate engines like team XXX does every year for $3K and then sell them at the end of the year for $1K. Yes, I know a team who does that.

For those who KNOW they've spent more than $500 on non-safety items, are they happy to accept BS laps? 1 lap for every $10 over I think it is.

4.4: BS Factor: To prevent cheating, all cars will be inspected by a panel appointed by the Organizers. At that time, all teams will be given an opportunity to describe the car’s purchase and prep. If the panel believes the limit set out in Rule 4.1 has been exceeded, it will assign a Bullshit Factor (BSF) equal to one BSF per $10 above the limit. The entry will be docked one lap for each BSF assigned. (Ten dollars = one BSF = one lap.) Entrants are very, very, exceedingly strongly encouraged to bring pre-race-prep photographs, verifiable receipts, notarized testimonials, plus any and all other supporting evidence to Tech/BS Inspection. Or at least make up plausible-sounding stories in advance.

    4.4.1: Appeal of BSF Panel Decisions. Get real. There’s no appealing this decision. You’re boned.

75 (edited by Spank 2018-06-09 07:06 PM)

Re: The "Build me a $5,000 $500 Lemons car" Thread

The Le Baron was 150% more per lap than the Z.

Add in the purchase, build, and transport costs...



Oh, and I buy my tubing from Summit Steel. They have an outfit in TX as well.

http://summitsteel.net/