Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Yeah, Tyler himself freely admits it wasn't the best move- he thought the Maxima saw him, and made the worse odds choice.

I'm not trying to attack you, unfortunately there's no place for subtext in online discussion.
The Maxima guy owned his bit, we are trying to own our part of it, and the physical healing process continues.

Thanks for your measured reply.

Drive on the right in your 544 Svensson!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 83 races and counting...

27

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

No problem.  I haven't made a MAJOR mistake on track yet, but I'm sure I will.  It might look just like Tylers!  It just happens so fast, it's like bang bang too late.  So tell Tyler we hope he feels better AND comes back. 

And I hope you can salvage your car.  We just blew the coROLLa up again at CMP, and now we need a whole new motor.  But it's coming back again.   Looks like you needv a little sspension work too, but I'm sure it's all fixable.

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

I do not see where Tyler made a bad choice. There was room for him there and it would have been a clean well planed pass if he had not been hit. You can see in the vid that the maxima was starting a move to the right but Tyler was already overtaking and had position on the maxima when contact happened. When you hear drivers talk about his line or they had the line that is a sign of inexperience because the line does not mean anything in a racing situation.  There is a theoretical lap on every track and people are taught that (the BMW club is HUGE on it)it is the fastest/safest way around. JUST because you are on your LINE does not mean you own that part of the track and no one can invade your line. During a full blown race the line is no longer existent if you are running in a crowed and may be overtaken. This is not a Time Trial event or a HPDE wake up drive like it is a Lemons race assuming someone will not overtake in a crowd is not so smart.



Moghty Pendejo

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Jer wrote:

No problem.  I haven't made a MAJOR mistake on track yet, but I'm sure I will.  It might look just like Tylers!  It just happens so fast, it's like bang bang too late.  So tell Tyler we hope he feels better AND comes back. 

And I hope you can salvage your car.  We just blew the coROLLa up again at CMP, and now we need a whole new motor.  But it's coming back again.   Looks like you needv a little sspension work too, but I'm sure it's all fixable.

Thanks for the good wishes, but the car's a write off.

There are more Cavaliers out there, but this might turn out to be our swan song...

Drive on the right in your 544 Svensson!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 83 races and counting...

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Pendejo wrote:

I do not see where Tyler made a bad choice. There was room for him there and it would have been a clean well planed pass if he had not been hit. You can see in the vid that the maxima was starting a move to the right but Tyler was already overtaking and had position on the maxima when contact happened. When you hear drivers talk about his line or they had the line that is a sign of inexperience because the line does not mean anything in a racing situation.  There is a theoretical lap on every track and people are taught that (the BMW club is HUGE on it)it is the fastest/safest way around. JUST because you are on your LINE does not mean you own that part of the track and no one can invade your line. During a full blown race the line is no longer existent if you are running in a crowed and may be overtaken. This is not a Time Trial event or a HPDE wake up drive like it is a Lemons race assuming someone will not overtake in a crowd is not so smart.



Moghty Pendejo

It's just that BOTH drivers made the selfish choice, and it didn't work out.
Tyler figured the Maxima guy saw him, and vice versa.

As I have said before, the tire marks from the Maxima were on the back door of the wagon, so Tyler was definitely in front of the Maxima when the contact occurred.

The violence came from the miata adding some angular momentum to the spin, making Tyler hit the wall that much harder.

Drive on the right in your 544 Svensson!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 83 races and counting...

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

It looks like one of those things to me that normally causes a car to just spin off track, but this time it happened to occur near a concrete barrier and made it 10x's as bad. The kind of situation where you say, "shit happens". Totally sucks for eveyone involved and I'm sure the nissan and mazda guys feel like having a do over too. It could have been much worse though.


Now I'm looking at head restraint setups and a better seat with shoulder and halo braces.....

Shake and Bake
America, birthplace of the missionary position. You're welcome...

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

X-args wrote:

He's en route to the next hospital with some kind of broken vertebrae.

Send us your best get-well thoughts...

I've been on my back for seven weeks now recovering from injuries I got in a wreck.  It's inconvenient, but beats a pine box by a mile.  And bones heal.

From the video, the safety equipment seems to have done its job.

Tell your teammate to hang in there, and I hope he recovers fully and quickly.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Update: Tyler  is awake  and hurting, but no surgery- just a broken neck, is all.
3 months of a brace.

Drive on the right in your 544 Svensson!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 83 races and counting...

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

His visor was down but not latched. It flew open on impact.


CastorTroy wrote:

(from the video)I thought you were required to have your visor down while on track?

Drive on the right in your 544 Svensson!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 83 races and counting...

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

I have never driven in a race, but I can imagine that you get a steady stream of adrenaline. You're out there trying to be fast and efficient. Under normal driving conditions, you would probably take the "wait and see" approach to see what the other cars would do. I guess it's different when you are in the racing mindset. I don't think he could have guessed what line those 2 cars were going to take under the circumstances.

It did look aggressive, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it reckless. He took a risk and he lost. I hope he gets well soon.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

ouch...hope he is ok

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

I smell a rule change requiring HANS devices now, thanks to this preventable injury and accdent.  I may be wrong, but this wouldn't suprise me.

We are the people your parents warned you about.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Just found some external footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h01Enj8z … re=related

Ouch.

Dave Heinig - Schumacher Taxi Service
coROLLa - 2 time loser, RWB MR2 - 5 time loser
The Craptation - IOE WINNER! Lemons South Spring 2010
Crown Vic - Please God Don't Ever Make Me Go Through That Again

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Scary stuff to see. We hope your driver heals quickly (and uneventfully).

Clogging up the Gulf Region with TetanusNeon since 2008 and now the TetanusRacing 944s and BMW too.
Guest drives with NSF, Rocket Surgery, Property Devaluation, Terminally Confused, Team Sputnik, The Syndicate, Pit Crew Revenge, Spank, & Sir Jackie Stewart's Coin Purse.
35 races and counting!

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

After viewing such a horrific collision, with a broken neck injury, human nature is to assign culpability to someone; someone must “take the blame”.  In the case of this crash, it was determined that the driver of the Maxima was 100% to blame and was issued a life-time ban to ever participate in a Lemons event again.

The crash was certainly quite frightening and the injuries serious.  In defense of Tyler’s pass attempt, he could not have reached the group of cars at a better spot – exiting a corner going into a short straight – with greater speed.  He analyzed the track position of the cars and determined that his closing speed was fast enough and the gap wide enough to successfully pass all the 3 cars by T11. This was nowhere near reckless, not overly aggressive and not an unreasonable pass actually (IMHO)

Rick, (driver of car #44) on the other hand made the wide somewhat outside line to leave plenty of room from the car he was passing on the right.  Then by what Rick told me, the Hooked On Driving course taught him (rightfully) to always look up the track, which is what he was doing.  Tyler probably assumed Rick was so wide left because he was leaving room for him to pass, when in fact he was just leaving plenty of room from the car Rick was passing.  I told Rick that in order to avoid possible contact with a car under braking, “offset”  your car slightly from the car in front when entering a braking zone, that way there is more room  to maneuver , swerve or take evasion action, should the situation arise, than if you’re lined-up directly behind the car in-front when you start your braking.  After the nice wide pass of the car on his right, Rick started to smoothly and gradually move to the right so he wouldn’t be directly behind the Miata when entering the T11 braking area.
 
Now this is something Tyler did not know, namely that Rick was going to move to his right to position himself to be “offset” from the Miata in front of him.  Rick did not check his mirrors to see where the Cavalier was, he was looking up the track and at the Miata, so as he moved over  to his right, he was shutting the door right as Tyler was making his pass.  Clearly the Cavalier was passed Rick on drivers right, but since Rick was looking so far up the track, Rick told me that it seemed as though the Cavalier appeared “out of nowhere” and by the time he saw Tyler, it somewhat surprised him and they touched before he could move slightly to the left (or stop moving to his right).

Perhaps I’m a bit predisposed because Rick is a good friend but I can’t see that this tragic accident is nothing more than a racing incident. In other words no one driver is 100% culpable for this accident –there is enough to go around.  It was a racing accident, without malice or intent on anyone’s part.

Tyler, my hopes, wishes and prayers are for fast and full recovery.

41 (edited by Jer 2010-03-07 06:44 PM)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Wait-the Maxima driver got a lifetime ban for that?  wow   I see shit like that on nearly every lap on track in a Lemons race.

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

42 (edited by Duncan345 2010-03-07 06:57 PM)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

ifb_mole: You are right, people feel that someone should be responsible when something like this happens. The truth is that everyone out on that track assumes a risk. Just because someone got an unusually serious injury does not mean that someone else was at fault. It's the same for football players. Injuries happen during the normal course of the game. Sure, you can get banned for being reckless or intentionally trying to hurt someone, but the nature of the sport means that accidents can happen without anyone acting recklessly or maliciously. I don't see how taking an atypical line should be a bannable offense simply because this time it resulted in a serious collision.

It would be different if this happened on a public road. You can't go out on a race track and expect to be 100% safe from this sort of thing.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

I was amazed at how many racers that have gotten ticked because their roll cages needed to be tweaked.  This is a perfect video as to why tech is so important.

Justice...with a smile.

44 (edited by X-args 2010-03-07 08:00 PM)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

ifb_mole: I'm surprised at a ban, I figured he'd get the same year off as Tyler.
It is in the operating style of Jay, though- the whole 'ban them all and let $deity sort them out' since as we well know Lemons is filled with armchair lawyers.

And if there wasn't a dictator it'd be the SCCA, and there would have to be a guy just to arrange all the procedural meetings...

Now we as a team move on to support Tyler, since his business is pretty much a one man show that will be closed for repairs for a while.

Thanks everyone for your support (and more-or-less constructive criticism).
Another significant event in the history of Lemons I think, and who knows what will come of this.

Tyler is probably finished of his own volition as a driver, and the rest of the the team will take a while to figure out the next step.

Frustratingly, we finally got the Cavalier 2.0 sorted and reliable- but there you go.

Drive on the right in your 544 Svensson!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 83 races and counting...

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

I have been involved in a few Lemons events, and was at the track when the unfortunate incident occurred at Altamont.   In that case the investigation was very thorough. 

I have no reason to think that is a knee jerk reaction, just because someone was seriously hurt.  I *suspect* that the drivers were talked to and that video was reviewed.   

Taking an atypical line does not get you banned.  Both the hearse and V.W. bus took atypical lines but their path was predictable.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

I'd heard that it was the overtaking driver that clipped the victim car, not the other way around. While the maxima did move into his line, i can't help but watch the first part of that video and mutter "there's no way i'm diving for that pass if thats me".

A lifetime ban seems harsh. If there's a grass runoff instead of that wall its a 30 minute penalty and they're back on the track

Huey Newis and the Lose
Don't Start Believin'

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

I hope that Tyler has a speedy recovery and that the team makes it back out on track.  You were always great competitors and Lemons is greater for having you!

-Kyle
Eyesore Racing
"That's probably wrong, but it's worth a shot."

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Hope for speedy recovery to the driver.  Hindsight is always 20-20 and its a shame to see people jumping to conclusions -- but the speed difference (slow cars and fast cars -- not much in the middle) Lemons makes it quite dangerous sometimes.  Races are won/lost and cars are crashed by simple mistakes -- usually not malicious.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Hey Anton ,I hope for a speedy recovery for Tyler .

I know I build good cages but I wish you wouldn't test them.

I've had  like a lump in the throat feeling all day yesterday and today worrying about Tyler.

Give me a call when you got a chance.

Pit Crew Revenge Racing   Rolling chicanelimo,95Lamdspeeder,Gimp Pimp Cadi,300zx Car show kaboom!! 90 Wagovan, mazda v8 Lemons LOGO TATTOO!  Aces 84 Cadi Eldo Briattz I O E WINNER
Class C win with LemonOdy Cannonball Run Whambulance !EX K Captain
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Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

I couldn't help but notice what happened in the video when the Cavalier driver released his belts: he landed on his head.  This brought me back to 1998, when I rolled in a track event.  The corner workers directed me to push HARD on the roof with both hands, while they released my belts so that I wouldn't land on my head and possibly sustain an injury.  I only mention this as a point of reference: if you have the time, push against the roof with your stronger arm and release the belts with the other arm...or wait for help from the corner workers if there is no fire or fuel leak.

I mean no criticism to this driver in this situation -- he exited the car very swiftly.  I only hope that I could be that efficient following a hard hit to a concrete wall that left the car upside-down and on fire!

Team Co-Craptain, Los Cerdos Voladores
Plymouth Neon
Yeah, we're horrible...but we're LEAST Horrible