51 (edited by H.K. Phooey 2010-03-08 07:11 AM)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Westyside wrote:

I'd heard that it was the overtaking driver that clipped the victim car, not the other way around. While the maxima did move into his line, i can't help but watch the first part of that video and mutter "there's no way i'm diving for that pass if thats me".

A lifetime ban seems harsh. If there's a grass runoff instead of that wall its a 30 minute penalty and they're back on the track

Agreed!
Watch the video again, you can see the Cavalier driver make corrections @ 16 seconds, just a slight turn of the wheel seeing the Maxima driver coming over. He had seconds before to correct seeing 3 wide in the straight forming. The driver held his ground and speed. I see hard driving into a tight situation in a Lemons race.  I see the Maxima moving over, I see the Cavalier is super freaking fast FOR A CAVALIER and is much to blame as anyone.
If you are making the pass, you need to make the pass clean. I see the cavalier driver going for it when I would have waited. With a car that fast, he could have taken those cars at a better point and what looked like to me is, at will.

IMHO...Keep your face shield down unless under yellow.

Justice...with a smile.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

I wonder about the lifetime ban. Maybe it's because of the driver's previous race at Thunderhill, did he get many black flags then? Did he drive like a dickhead in both races? The ban seems a bit severe to me. It just looked like a racing incident. That the one flipped is a bad roll of the dice. But then I don't know the whole story either.

Shit, Carl Edwards should get a lifetime ban or at least sit out the season for his PIT move on Brad K. yesterday. It's not cool to do that at 190mph.

Get well soon Tyler!!!

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

A tough break for Tyler...I suspect the fire made a hasty exit essential, hence the fall  on the head. Sometimes it's nice to remove the dash and use a quick release wheel....it lets you pull your legs up into a "fetal" position before you release the harness, so your legs can prop you up a little. It's very disorienting to be upside down and if you don't have the time to take a breath and get your bearings, it's even worse. With the fire, I don't see what else he could have done. Bad luck....get well soon.

Jim "Endo" Anderton
30 years of racing and still not Brambilla.....

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

The lifetime ban sounds harsh, but the more I watch the video, the more it looks like the Maxima made 100% of the error, 

When your on a track with 100+ other cars, you've got to keep an eye out for other drivers moving up on you fast.  The fact is the cavalier was out in front when the contact was made.  No question in my mind that the Maxima was the only at fault here.

-Martin
Team SHOtime
1986 Formula 1 Benetton racing livery
Old themes - M*A*S*H - Red Rocket Rat car

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Was that Memo Rojas driving the Maxima?  The Maxima definitely moved over, but he probably didn't see him.  I know defensive racing sounds like an oxymoron, but it's mandatory in Lemons.  I can't say I've never run up through the middle of a crowd, but I also know it was a mistake that could cost me if someone moves over. 

What's with the lifetime ban?  I know it's in the rules, but we can't make assumptions that he is banned.  That's up to Jay and the gang.

Hope you get well soon.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

It's interesting that folks are calling this "100%" at fault for one party or another.  I sure don't see that...

The #44 was directly behind the miata and was gaining VERY rapidly on it.  If we can see that in the video, the driver also had the opportunity to see it.  The Cav driver had a decision to make - "pick" the Maxima using the slower car or lift for just a second, assuming that the Maxima *might* move left instead of braking really hard behind the Miata.  He chose the more aggressive option, and it didn't work out.  Even if Tyler wasn't trying to "pick" the Maxima, he did have the opportunity to see him closing on the Miata.  The Maxima driver probably had the last clear chance, here, but to put this 100% on the Maxima driver is harsh, IMHO.

When I wasn't driving, I was spotting from the top of the bleachers in the back.  I saw lots of similar moves at the end of the straight as the track turns up the hill for T1.  There were big speed differentials there, and folks were often "exerting their right to the line" and expecting inexperienced racers to be aware of their presence.  This caused some pretty hairy crashes.  It was actually a lot better than I thought it was going to be, but still a little scary smile

In any event, this sucks for Tyler and I wish him the absolute best recovery, but I feel bad that the Maxima driver is being burned at the stake.  That's far from the worst move I saw on track, it just had the worst consequences.

Cheers,

Dean

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Jer " to me the Maxima was closing the door.  Your driver had a second option, jump on the brakes and tuck to the right and cuss.  It certainly was cuss-worthy, he was definitely cut off. "

I don't agree with the assessment that it was cuss-worthy.  It seems to me that the guy in the rear (cavalier) must assume everyone in front of him has a) no idea he is there or b) is stupid or c) both blind and stupid.  In a crowd stupidity goes up by the square of the number of participants.

“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

I definitely don't put this one all on the Maxima driver.  He was closing the door when the Cavalier was three car lengths back.  I know in the heat of battle you do stupid stuff, but the first time I watched the video my instinctive reaction was, "don't stick your nose in there."   You always have to assume the guy in front doesn't know you're there, especially with high closing speed.  To go into a situation like that with no exit strategy if the car ahead doesn't see you is not smart.

As far as banning the guy for life, I'd hope after seeing the video the organizers would change their minds.  He got screwed.

Dave Heinig - Schumacher Taxi Service
coROLLa - 2 time loser, RWB MR2 - 5 time loser
The Craptation - IOE WINNER! Lemons South Spring 2010
Crown Vic - Please God Don't Ever Make Me Go Through That Again

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

At T1 is was scary pulling onto track with cars coming up on you at 90 plus. Which my driver was coming around T1 and car cut out and the older 280 zx didn't see him coming onto track and slammed into back of the Caltrans/Grinch/Frogger/cowcar/Jailbird  and the car did make it to it 8 of these races .
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60 (edited by ifb_mole 2010-03-08 11:14 AM)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Let me go over the events regarding the ban from my view point. Those knowledgeable about the details are free to add or correct this post
 
I moseyed into the penalty area after the red flag had been out for about a half hour to ask Johnny how the driving has been thus far.  When he saw me, it was then I was first told that my car was the cause of the wreck.  By that time there were 5 eye-witness accounts that the Maxima “moved-over” on the Cavalier and the result was an injury accident and a totaled car.  Soon an account from a 6th witness came forth with essentially the same account – Maxima’s fault.  Jay came over to the entire team and said there was some video he was going to review and come back in an hour.

Well I was there 1 hour later and if there is one thing about  Jay’s face, it’s easy to read and as he walked over, I could tell he was not a happy camper.  He told me the video evidence was “conclusive” our car caused the accident and WE were banned from any future Lemons events.  Yes WE, that is me, the car, everyone.  I was shocked, nearly speechless.  Jay brought up the problems  they had with us at Thunderhill, I quickly reminded Jay that the drivers that received the most black-flags and the fatal black-flag at Thunderhill were NOT on the team, that “problem” had been taken care of.  As a note, Rick DID receive a black-flag at Thunderhill for being involved in what was essentially an unavoidable multi-car brake lock-up accordion collision.  It was so minor that there wasn’t even a scratch and any of the cars.  Rick was in the middle of the accordion and all the cars were called-in, not just Rick.  So he wasn’t singled out, about 3-4 cars were all black-flagged on that one.

“I understand booting Rick” I said to Jay, “But all of us?”  He brought up the point that what IF something should happen again with the “44 Maxima” and it was learned (presumably by injury lawyers) that there were prior “incidents” with the team/car and he let us continue, how would that look? That was about it.  The entire team, a lifetime ban.  Could it get any worse?  HELL YES!!  Tyler had a broken neck and their uberfast Cavalier wagon was a pile of twisted metal and at this time I had no reason to doubt that Rick was at fault 100%. My Lemons career consisted of one black-flag free session, my team caused a serious injury accident and I was banned for life.

After I was packed-up and ready to go I saw a clear opportunity to talk with Jay, Johnny and Phil as I was leaving.  I pleaded my case again and Jay kept the door a wee bit ajar that if I was NOT a captain and NOT the Maxima I could maybe hook-up with another team as a driver and participate again.  I shook all their hands and thanked them all for all their hard work making Lemons what it is.

It continues…..before the event I contracted with Chris Overzet to tow the car back to his shop so he could prep and perhaps even tow/support the car for the Thunderhill event  IF we survive Infineon.  I drove the car over to the back 40 in the paddock where he was pitted.  A question than overcame me, ”Could we be the top vote getter for the People’s Curse and our car be destroyed when we are no longer even in the event?”  Well, YES we could and YES we did (apparently).  Somehow we were spared but the car was moved to a prominent place in the pits for people to write whatever they wanted on the car with Sharpie pens, which evolved into spray paint.  I have not seen the car after this “modifying”.  Any pictures from anyone?

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

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Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

I'm a bit surprised that they came down so hard on the Maxima driver/team.  Perhaps there is more to it than what I can see in the video.

On the other hand, LeMon's safety record is now spoiled.  Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the first serious injury due to an on track incident (I'm not counting the driver that died of a heart attack on track at Altamont).  Keeping the insurance gods happy requires a sacrifice.

I hope Tyler heals quickly.  I'm looking into a HANS for my next race.

Our Lady of Perpetual Downforce
http://www.perpetualdownforce.com/

63

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

By some accounts he hurt his neck when he released the harnesses and fell on his head. So that one is hard to pin on the lack of neck support.  It's just bad luck and probably a little wooziness for the driver after the roll.

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

64 (edited by X-args 2010-03-08 12:59 PM)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

The doctor at Kaiser saw the video- and said 'oh yeah, there's the vertebrae' at the moment of wall impact, so I'd say that's most likely it.

I agree that the Maxima team shouldn't necessarily be banned for life, but I think that Jay can't just let this go.

Drive on the right in your 544 Svensson!
2007/2012/2013 Driver's Championship (what was I thinking!?) 83 races and counting...

65 (edited by Blanco Basura Racing 2010-03-08 01:12 PM)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

We were literally in wine county motor sports buying a new wrap-around seat before the fire was out. Plus we added a new team rule; all drivers wear Hans or they don't drive.

66

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Hindsight is 20-20, but that looks like a high risk pass on Tyler's part, yet the Maxima got 100% of the blame so I'm just wondering the logic of the decision.  I'm hoping one of the organizers will chime in here and tell us what the basis of the decision was so that we can learn going forward.  My only door to door experience is in Lemons, so I'm not sure about the difference between dive bombing and being aggressive.   

Is the rule that you cannot change your line if it will cause problems for someone overtaking you?  Clearly, the Maxima was moving over before Tyler was in front - but Tyler was in front when contact occured.  Is that the final determinant - who is in front no matter what else?   Did Jay feel the Maxima moved over intentionally to block Tyler (It looks to me like he moved over to avoid the Miata in front).   The Maxima did alter his line all of a sudden - was that the problem?  If so, then before you offset a car you  are coming up on, are you obligated to check your mirrors for over taking cars?  I have always assumed the overtaking car is obliged to make the pass.  Maybe the issue is the overtaking car is allowed to assume you are going to hold your current line and in effect the Maxima was blocking in effect, even if they were trying to offset or pass the Miata.  I'm sure there are other possibilities, but I'd sure like to know more about my obligations and rights (if any) out there.    I can see I am going to have to start checking my mirrors more religiously before altering my line for any reason.

I am glad to hear that Tyler is ok.  As the say,  s**t happens.   Just don't want people to get hurt or screwed when it does.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Our car (the Peugeot) was a couple of cars behind when the incident occurred and got a pretty good view of what happened. The judges used the video to help determine what happened so they had more than just the in-car view of the rollover when they decided that the Maxima was at-fault.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h01Enj8zHTY

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

1st off I hope Tyler a speedy recovery!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The cavalier was FAST...it impressed me big time on Friday....I was stunned at the POWER that thing had.....handled pretty good too

Moving on to the topic at hand...I do think Tyler made an aggressive pass..& the new driver of the Maxima was taking more of a classic "school" line and was not aware of the fast approaching Cavalier.....If I were in the cavalier, would I have attempted that pass.....I dunno, but its just too easy to sit here and armchair quarterback Tyler's driving....

I do think this accident brings up an important aspect of safety that the Cavalier didn't have:

1:  No hans device...which may or may not have helped
2:  No wrap around drivers seat:  I think this FOR SURE would have saved his neck.....it looks to me like he injured his neck when he snapped his neck to the side (right)...surely the foam donut helped minimize the injury....it might have been WORSE without it!!!

Richard Doty
1984 Porsche 928 "Estate"
Porsche- "there is A substitute" Racing
Dirt Poorsche Racing #2

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Blanco Basura Racing wrote:

Plus we added a new team rule; all drivers wear Hans or they don't drive.

We had that rule since day 1, and now I feel REALLY good about the money spent

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Amen to that.  I debated just getting foam collars for my drivers.  Then I took a look at the wives and kids that would be affected by an injury and thought that money really wasn't important.

The Cannonball Bandits | Facebook Fan Page | Unununium Medal Winners 2010
3X Organizer's Choice Winner 2010 - Sears Pointless, Goin' For Broken, Arse Sweat-A-Palooza
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71

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Some of the Schumacher Taxi Service fleet are looking at better neck protection, and this will just fuel that process along I'm sure.

Jer / Schumacher Taxi Service
2010 Spring CMP I.O.E. winner
2010 Sebring overall winner
1996 Miata, 1991 BMW E30, 1987 coROLLa (retired), 1984 Citation (retired), 1993 Miata (retired)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Yup - I started pricing out a HANS device.

And after watching the video again, I'll amend my earlier statement.  There was room there to make a pass.  The guy in the Maxima should have checked his mirror after coming out of the corner.

I'll stand by my statement that he got screwed though.  If that had been a grass field instead of a concrete wall it would have been 100 "I will check my mirrors on a regular basis" with a sharpie instead of a lifetime ban.  It makes me glad the tracks we run out east have plenty of run-off.

Best wishes on a speedy recovery to Tyler.  A wreck like that could have been a lot worse.

Dave Heinig - Schumacher Taxi Service
coROLLa - 2 time loser, RWB MR2 - 5 time loser
The Craptation - IOE WINNER! Lemons South Spring 2010
Crown Vic - Please God Don't Ever Make Me Go Through That Again

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

DaveH wrote:

I'll stand by my statement that he got screwed though.  If that had been a grass field instead of a concrete wall it would have been 100 "I will check my mirrors on a regular basis" with a sharpie instead of a lifetime ban.  It makes me glad the tracks we run out east have plenty of run-off.

Explain to me again how Nelson Ledges is too dangerous for Lemons...

BRE Datsun (Broke Racing Effluence) formerly Dawn of the Zed Racing
'74 260Z
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74 (edited by priapism 2010-03-08 04:55 PM)

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

Looking at the Peugeot video, you can see the Maxima turn in on the Cavalier - and hit him - not once, but twice.  It really takes a complete absolute lack of situational awareness to do that.  Of course there are two parties to any racing incident but ferchristsakes, hold your line!

Given that team's history of contact, I support the judges' decision.

Re: The Cavalier is dead- rolled again!

An issue I think is worth thinking about is the wall itself.

Here is my theory, I'm obviously no expert.

The cavalier had impact with 2 different sections of wall the first one was pushed back away from track and uncoupled from the second section exposing its flat end to front side of the car.   At that point the car essentially had an offset head on collision with the butt end of the second wall section, which of didn't move an inch, forcing the car and driver to absorb a huge amount of energy as the car suddenly decelerated then flipped.  My guess is that the injury occurred during the sudden deceleration.  I wonder if the injury would have occurred had the 2 sections of wall stayed joined.  How different this discussion would be if nobody had broken their neck.

I hope Tyler has a speedy and fully recovery.

-JOE

Head Wookie
Snowspeeder Pilots Association
'85 MR2