Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

fiasco wrote:

box the frame rails, then pressurize the frame and cage with NAWWWWSSSSSSSSSSS.

We used to joke about putting a scuba tank sized bottle of NOS in a car. Only use it on big straights and see how long it would last.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

Jimmy wrote:

400 Mopar big block with about 190 net rated HP.

Wow.  As someone who runs a 2.0L I-4 Honda (no VTEC) with about 150HP to the wheels, 190HP from a 400 big block V8 is just plain sad.  Especially with the weight penalty.

As a fellow MOPAR (street) car owner though, I love that V8's sound!

Captain
Team Super Westerfield Bros.
'93 Acura Integra - No VTEC Yo!

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

VKZ24 wrote:
Jimmy wrote:

400 Mopar big block with about 190 net rated HP.

As someone who runs a 2.0L I-4 Honda (no VTEC) with about 150HP to the wheels, 190HP from a 400 big block V8 is just plain sad.

He as ALL the TORQUES, though.

Capt. Delinquent Racing
RUST-TITE XR4Ti - '21 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA  I Got Screwed
The One & Only Taurus V8 SHO #31(now moved on to another OG Delinquent)
'17 Vodden the Hell - (No) Hope for the Future Award, '08 AMP Survivor, '08 ARSE-FREEZE-APALOOZA Mega-Cheater

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

DelinquentRacer wrote:
VKZ24 wrote:
Jimmy wrote:

400 Mopar big block with about 190 net rated HP.

As someone who runs a 2.0L I-4 Honda (no VTEC) with about 150HP to the wheels, 190HP from a 400 big block V8 is just plain sad.

He as ALL the TORQUES, though.

All your torque belongs to me!

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

chaase wrote:
Mr.Yuck wrote:

Unless you are going to swap the intake, go with headers, I see no reason to go to a 4bbl. Not a chance you pick up 25hp from a carb swap. If you want 25+ swap the intake and mani's out.

I would do all three. Headers, 4 BBL intake and 4 BBL carb.It's a Cordoba so its not like it's going to get laps in BS.


yes all 3. You can make that 190hp 250hp in a weekend...

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

31

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

I say go with the headers first. If your going to stay below 5k get the smallest tube headers you can find. Then do an aluminum intake and a small 600/650 4bbl. Make sure you get a dual plane low rise intake manifold. You don’t want to run into hood interference and have to run a narrow air filter or fab a scoop
   One of the huge benefits of this swap will be all the weight you get off the nose of the car when you toss the heavy 2 bbl intake and exhaust manifolds. If you have not moved the battery to the trunk you need to do that too. Change all those things and you will have more HP and a LOT less weight on the nose of the car

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

JCH wrote:

I say go with the headers first. If your going to stay below 5k get the smallest tube headers you can find. Then do an aluminum intake and a small 600/650 4bbl. Make sure you get a dual plane low rise intake manifold. You don’t want to run into hood interference and have to run a narrow air filter or fab a scoop
   One of the huge benefits of this swap will be all the weight you get off the nose of the car when you toss the heavy 2 bbl intake and exhaust manifolds. If you have not moved the battery to the trunk you need to do that too. Change all those things and you will have more HP and a LOT less weight on the nose of the car


But scoops are soooo cooool!!!

Just a Noob trying to take the long approach to doing it right.

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

we run a 5.0 with a 4 barrel carb, rev limiter has been increased to 4800 RPM!  Quick fuel, which is a cheap holly, vacuum secondary.  Started with a 600 CFM, went down to a 450 and the car seemed to like it.  Was a little faster at Pittrace than the previous year.

For you, headers and a small (600 cfm)  would wake her up a bit.  I'm 100% certain it'll sound way better.

Silent But Deadly Racing- Chief cook and bottle washer, Ricky Bobby's Laughing Clown Malt Liquor Thunderbird Turbo Coupe, Datsun 510, 87 Mustang (The Race Team Formerly Known as Prince), 72 Pinto Squire waggy, Parnelli Jones 67 Galaxie, Turbo Coupe Surf wagon.(The Surfin Bird), Squatting Dogs In Tracksuits, finally a B class winner.

Besmirching race tracks in the Eastern US since 2001

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

Here’s a hot take re: headers. They suck. They scrape on everything. The gaskets blow out. The bolts work loose, constantly. Big block HP manifolds flow just as well at the RPM we turn. Add an aluminum dual plane and a 650 Holley

Interceptor Motorsports
351w Foxy T-Bird - Class B Winner!, 440 Bluesmobile - Judges Choice, Org Choice & IOE!, Camero, Fuego Turbo - Heroic Fix & IOE!

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

I agree with Pat..... The Javelin has manifolds. Headers are not worth the hassle.
Manny

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

Good Stuff.....Thanks Everyone......( even the Turbo people )

Cordoba

37 (edited by Lemon_Newton-Metre 2022-05-13 10:09 AM)

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

;-)

(below has nothing to do with the technical question you asked, which I think was an excellent question; a _ton_ of good information in the direct responses)

Based on almost all of the Lemons Wrapup videos I've seen, my opinion is the True Lemons Experience° is not achieved unless you:

1. Go "all in" on an obscure theme, and/or

2. Perform an ill-advised engine swap to a low power, poor reliability history engine, and/or

3. Switch a drivetrain around, and/or

4. Put a turbo on an engine which has been 'running reliably, with no performance or driveability problems'.

... but I'm beginning to think the 'turbo' joke was a little too obscure

I'm just going to do the theme

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

gtopat wrote:

Here’s a hot take re: headers. They suck. They scrape on everything. The gaskets blow out. The bolts work loose, constantly. Big block HP manifolds flow just as well at the RPM we turn. Add an aluminum dual plane and a 650 Holley

I've installed headers on lots of cars, mostly big block mopars. i have never had any issues with any of that. Maybe if you use cheap gaskets, but I used Fel-Pro of Remflex...zero issues. And unless you car is way down in the weeds they shouldn't hit anything. The Manifolds on that 400 suck. They are heavy and restrictive. I might be inclined to go with a set of Hi-Po logs off a 68-70 B-body but those things are $$$ and do not flow nearly as well as even a cheap set of headers. Also keep in mind all the heat Mani's retain, making for a very hot engine bay. We run headers on our F-body (GM product) never had any issues.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

Yea unless they're talking about like crazy gasser super long dump headers like in a Wycked Kar Kulture Ed Roth art piece or something, I don't really know what they mean by "Scrape on everything"

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

If you're happy with the 2bbl I'd stick with it. Setting up a carb can be challenging you can have flat spots, hesitation, etc...and say you pick up some speed, you'll have to get on the brakes sooner giving back some of the speed you picked up. But if you can improve the brakes and handling you can brake later and corner faster. It took me a while to figure out that brakes and handling were a lot cheaper than horse power.

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

Real question for anyone who's run a car with and without headers: Do they add any power?

In my (very brief) experience doing PR for an exhaust company, it seemed like any gains you would actually make were (A) excruciatingly small and (B) usually near the top of the rev range. In other words, the power gains would be mostly theoretical for how most teams run their Lemons engines (Unless you have that one guy who always wrings the engine out to factory redline to make the pass at the end of the straight). The marketing people could still say "Adds up to 10 HP" because while a B18A1 will indeed breathe better at 6600 RPM, if your drivers are revving the aforementioned B18A1 to 6600 RPM every shift, it's not going to make 10 (or 3 or whatever) more ponies for very long.

I realize that isn't categorical and that some exhaust manifolds are SUPER restrictive, but it always seemed silly to think that it was the one thing that was holding you back. Mostly, they just seem to make the car sound a little better and much louder, which is extremely unfun if you're driving a race car for over an hour.

Eric Rood
Everything Bagel, 24 Hours of Lemons
eric@24hoursoflemons.com

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

In my Real Race Car experience they do make a difference, however as you point out it's mostly in the upper range.  We did change headers in some places if we wanted more mid range torque and things like that.  However for what we are doing I don't think it makes that much of a difference (aside from rotaries since exhaust flow is more like a 2 stroke on those).  I can see the weight aspect as making more of a difference to get weight of the nose of the car.  Perhaps others have far more time than I but it seems to me that you need to be pretty far down the development path where you are swapping cast iron for tube headers for weight purposes.  Generally I run with whatever the car came with for the first few races.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

43 (edited by chaase 2022-05-18 10:51 AM)

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

therood wrote:

Real question for anyone who's run a car with and without headers: Do they add any power?

In my (very brief) experience doing PR for an exhaust company, it seemed like any gains you would actually make were (A) excruciatingly small and (B) usually near the top of the rev range. In other words, the power gains would be mostly theoretical for how most teams run their Lemons engines (Unless you have that one guy who always wrings the engine out to factory redline to make the pass at the end of the straight). The marketing people could still say "Adds up to 10 HP" because while a B18A1 will indeed breathe better at 6600 RPM, if your drivers are revving the aforementioned B18A1 to 6600 RPM every shift, it's not going to make 10 (or 3 or whatever) more ponies for very long.

I realize that isn't categorical and that some exhaust manifolds are SUPER restrictive, but it always seemed silly to think that it was the one thing that was holding you back. Mostly, they just seem to make the car sound a little better and much louder, which is extremely unfun if you're driving a race car for over an hour.

That is definitely true for the more modern cars. The exhausts flow well enough that headers won't make a big difference, especially w/o a re-tune.  Older car require some investigation. Changing headers alone would be pointless.Its usually a good starting point to change to a 4BBL carb, intake and to headers as a group. Headers are more of a supporting HP modification in my experience.

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

therood wrote:

Real question for anyone who's run a car with and without headers: Do they add any power?

In my (very brief) experience doing PR for an exhaust company, it seemed like any gains you would actually make were (A) excruciatingly small and (B) usually near the top of the rev range. In other words, the power gains would be mostly theoretical for how most teams run their Lemons engines (Unless you have that one guy who always wrings the engine out to factory redline to make the pass at the end of the straight). The marketing people could still say "Adds up to 10 HP" because while a B18A1 will indeed breathe better at 6600 RPM, if your drivers are revving the aforementioned B18A1 to 6600 RPM every shift, it's not going to make 10 (or 3 or whatever) more ponies for very long.

I realize that isn't categorical and that some exhaust manifolds are SUPER restrictive, but it always seemed silly to think that it was the one thing that was holding you back. Mostly, they just seem to make the car sound a little better and much louder, which is extremely unfun if you're driving a race car for over an hour.

We aren't talking about an aluminum headed 4 banger that is tuned for as much power as possible from the factory. This is a 400 cubic inch V8 built during the smog era. A simple cam, intake, carb swap along with a set of headers can add 50+ hp.

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

therood wrote:

Real question for anyone who's run a car with and without headers: Do they add any power?

In my (very brief) experience doing PR for an exhaust company, it seemed like any gains you would actually make were (A) excruciatingly small and (B) usually near the top of the rev range. In other words, the power gains would be mostly theoretical for how most teams run their Lemons engines (Unless you have that one guy who always wrings the engine out to factory redline to make the pass at the end of the straight). The marketing people could still say "Adds up to 10 HP" because while a B18A1 will indeed breathe better at 6600 RPM, if your drivers are revving the aforementioned B18A1 to 6600 RPM every shift, it's not going to make 10 (or 3 or whatever) more ponies for very long.

I realize that isn't categorical and that some exhaust manifolds are SUPER restrictive, but it always seemed silly to think that it was the one thing that was holding you back. Mostly, they just seem to make the car sound a little better and much louder, which is extremely unfun if you're driving a race car for over an hour.

I picked up a set of :lemonssponsor: headers for our ETA e30 just cuz saying we had headers was cool.  Spent a ton of time getting them to fit with no noticeable difference in performance.  But we are 1% cooler!

"We Got Screwed" NHMS 2017, 4th NHMS 2020,  4th NJMP 2021,
"Judges Choice" NHMS 2021,10th NJMP 2022, 3rd Thompson 2022
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Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

squidrope wrote:
therood wrote:

Real question for anyone who's run a car with and without headers: Do they add any power?

In my (very brief) experience doing PR for an exhaust company, it seemed like any gains you would actually make were (A) excruciatingly small and (B) usually near the top of the rev range. In other words, the power gains would be mostly theoretical for how most teams run their Lemons engines (Unless you have that one guy who always wrings the engine out to factory redline to make the pass at the end of the straight). The marketing people could still say "Adds up to 10 HP" because while a B18A1 will indeed breathe better at 6600 RPM, if your drivers are revving the aforementioned B18A1 to 6600 RPM every shift, it's not going to make 10 (or 3 or whatever) more ponies for very long.

I realize that isn't categorical and that some exhaust manifolds are SUPER restrictive, but it always seemed silly to think that it was the one thing that was holding you back. Mostly, they just seem to make the car sound a little better and much louder, which is extremely unfun if you're driving a race car for over an hour.

I picked up a set of :lemonssponsor: headers for our ETA e30 just cuz saying we had headers was cool.  Spent a ton of time getting them to fit with no noticeable difference in performance.  But we are 1% cooler!

That's what I would expect from an E30. Big difference between an E30 and a Cordoba

1992 Saturn SL2 (retired) - Elmo's Revenge -  Class B winner, Heroic Fix winner x2
1969 Rover P6B 3500S(sold) - Super G-Rover - I.O.E Winner, Class C Winner
1996 Saturn SW2 - Elmo's Revenge (reborn!), Saturn SL1  Dazzleshipm Class C winner
1974 AMC Javelin - Oscar's Trash heap - IOE,”Organizer's Choice" and "I got Screwed" award winner

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

squidrope wrote:
therood wrote:

Real question for anyone who's run a car with and without headers: Do they add any power?

In my (very brief) experience doing PR for an exhaust company, it seemed like any gains you would actually make were (A) excruciatingly small and (B) usually near the top of the rev range. In other words, the power gains would be mostly theoretical for how most teams run their Lemons engines (Unless you have that one guy who always wrings the engine out to factory redline to make the pass at the end of the straight). The marketing people could still say "Adds up to 10 HP" because while a B18A1 will indeed breathe better at 6600 RPM, if your drivers are revving the aforementioned B18A1 to 6600 RPM every shift, it's not going to make 10 (or 3 or whatever) more ponies for very long.

I realize that isn't categorical and that some exhaust manifolds are SUPER restrictive, but it always seemed silly to think that it was the one thing that was holding you back. Mostly, they just seem to make the car sound a little better and much louder, which is extremely unfun if you're driving a race car for over an hour.

I picked up a set of :lemonssponsor: headers for our ETA e30 just cuz saying we had headers was cool.  Spent a ton of time getting them to fit with no noticeable difference in performance.  But we are 1% cooler!

Dude BMW's are tuned to the max from the factory. A set of headers on a big block mopar adds HP. Period. It also lightens the already heavy front end and gets heat out of the engine bay

"get up and get your grandma outta here"

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

The thing to remember is Headers are designed to replace big hunks of cast Iron from the 60's like these:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/At0AAOSwzupiOzIl/s-l400.jpg

Newer cars from the OBD2 world on, tend to have basically Headers or Header-like Manifolds now. So the difference is much MUCH less of an issue until you're building the hell out of the engine.

Mistake By The Lake Racing (MBTL)
88 Thunderbird "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GO!", Ex Astris, Rubigo / Semper Fracti
A&D: 2014 Sebrings at Sebring (NSF), 2014 NJMP2 Jurassic Park (SpeedyCop), 2012 Summit Point J30 (PiNuts)
2018 Route Sucky-Suck Rally Miata, 2019 World Tour Of Texas 64 Newport

49

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

Guildenstern wrote:

The thing to remember is Headers are designed to replace big hunks of cast Iron from the 60's like these:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/At0AAOSwzupiOzIl/s-l400.jpg

Newer cars from the OBD2 world on, tend to have basically Headers or Header-like Manifolds now. So the difference is much MUCH less of an issue until you're building the hell out of the engine.

  Stock Mopar Big Block Log exhaust manifolds look exactly like the ones in the picture and are VERY heavy and VERY restrictive. Replacing them and and the Very heavy cast iron intake would make a huge difference

Re: 4bbl or 2bbl

So...we swapped out the crossfire on our Corvette for a 500 Holley 2 barrel.   

Main reason we did this was the crossfire was breaking faster then I could fix the damn thing, it ran good the first 2 races...then never was right ever again. 

ANYWAYS

We swapped in the holley because it was a freebie from one of our team members it took us a few races to figure it out (I'm NOT a carb guy) but now that its set the car runs great on it, better then the crossfire in all ways other then cold starts. 

I'm sure we could get some more power out of a 4 barrel but...why?   I'm guessing it would be more thirsty and the car is very snappy with just the 2 barrel on it.  That being said I'm gonna agree with the people that have said headers and an aluminium intake, mostly for the weight savings.  See what else you can do to cut weight out of the car too.  While we all know its never going to be light, just making it lighter period should help, I imagine that car has a lot of weight to loose.

Team Sucker Punch:Winner Org Choice award Were the Elite Meet to Cheat 2015
Chevy Camaro (Tiger striped #38)  (1989-2017 RIP old friend)
Chevy Corvette 1984......and still racing!