The 24 Hours of Lemons Forums → Lemons Tech → Power steering in future project
RWD, _current_ problems with the power steering pump, future Lemons project.
Can I just close off the fluid lines of the power steering rack, and find some way to reconfigure the serpentine belt? Could it be as simple as that?
Maybe, maybe not.
On a prior Lemons car, we tried to delete the PS pump ('cause the power-robbing PS pump is the reason I suck at racing) and the ECU went bat s*** crazy with the engine idle trying to increase the line pressure. If your ECU doesn't care, or if the pressure sender is upstream of the plugged line, you may be able to get away with it.
A different problem could be that without flow, the PS pump may lose cooling and/or lubrication. Bypassing the rack (rather than plugging the lines) may fix that, but then you're back to pressures the ECU doesn't understand.
My arms are sore with power steering. I can't image without it. Maybe in a small car.
There's a correct way to delete power steering, a lot get it wrong. You need to disassemble your rack, there is a spring loaded rotary/spool valve in the neck that needs to be welded in place so it no longer moves vertically, but still twists horizontally. Without that weld, the pinion chatters up and down off the rack and makes the rack feel "loose" without hydraulic pressure. After that, plug all the holes, use a high quality grease to lubricate the bejesus out of everything and seal it all back up.
As for your belt, remove the pump, use a string the measure the belt length you need without the pump, go to your local autoadvancezonenapaoreillys store and ask politely to root around in their belts selection to find one that's the right length for a replacement.
Our merkur has the PSU deleted, it's 2900#, you miss the assist it in the paddock a bit and loading on the trailer, not as much in the race track. TL;DR, de-power the right way, go faster, and the less power steering matters (even with heavier RWD cars).
I thought instead of capping lines you connected the 2 lines at the rack to each other. This would avoid you fighting pressure building up against the cap.
Also most belt # correspond to # of ribs and length
I thought instead of capping lines you connected the 2 lines at the rack to each other. This would avoid you fighting pressure building up against the cap.
Anything that leaves the reliance of fluid in place is asking for trouble. the chattering I was talking about jackhammers through the steering column directly into your arms. Its an unpleasant feeling that I have experienced in another car done the wrong way. Take my method with a grain of salt, but its over two years since we did the delete and haven't had any driver arm fatigue or other issues with the PSU delete. The method was recommended by two people with a combined 40+ years of racing and car building experience.
I guess Prelude is different....:
belts cut off (to power steering, ac, etc.), no serpentine belt
pump removed
hoses cut, reattached, looped with hose clamps....I assume all the power steering fluid has dripped out of rack over the years...
drives great, turns fine, and smooth and easy....
been racing like this for years, and no one complains...
not even the ECU, which is old....OBD Zero!
RWD, _current_ problems with the power steering pump, future Lemons project.
Can I just close off the fluid lines of the power steering rack, and find some way to reconfigure the serpentine belt? Could it be as simple as that?
have you ever driven a PS car w/o PS? It is 5x harder than driving with a manual box. That thought would never enter my mind. Fix the PS box, it's not using much HP. You'd never make 30 minutes in the car, and you'd be a hazard on the track.. Just my $0.02
I think the "depends" comment above is spot-on.
In the Spec Miata world it was standard practice to loop the lines at the rack. The power rack was quicker ratio, so it was a more desirable option than the manual rack.
Back in the day the V8olvo was involved in an accident which necessitated the at-track removal of the power steering pump. I don't recall what was done with the rack, but it was not swapped out. I assume the lines were looped. The car was much nicer to drive on track without power assist. It was also much meaner looking without a grill or headlights. For clarity, that was a Volvo 244 with a Fox Mustang drivetrain.
And as a counter-point my 2001 Lightning would be undriveable without power steering.
So... depends.
RWD, _current_ problems with the power steering pump, future Lemons project.
Can I just close off the fluid lines of the power steering rack, and find some way to reconfigure the serpentine belt? Could it be as simple as that?
nice to know the car. But, can always retain the PS with an electric hydraulic unit. convert to pure electric power steering. Or do partial or full delete. Can gut the PS pump so its just an idler if it runs other junk. or see about rerouting the belts to by pass it.
We deleted PS on the 944, just filled the rack with high-temp grease and capped the fittings. No fatigue noted running 90 minute stints.
Did the same on the C4 Vette, it’s only been driven at paddock speeds thus far, but it feels like a non issue., even with a smaller than stock steering wheel.
When the Passat threw a belt, it was damn near impossible to drive it on to the trailer.
The Merc S500 lost PS boost and I drove it like that for two stints. Terribly fatiguing, but I lapped faster without it, mainly because the effort required to steer made me pick smoother lines. Would not have guessed that outcome.
These are all meant to illlustrate that the car configuration matters. Heavy FWD, you’re gonna need PS. Light RWD, probably not.
2001 GS 430 - I'm ready to DOMINATE.
Curb weight 3,707.
After so many interesting responses, I did a search and found these two threads to reread:
Anybody run a heavy car with no power steering?
Hmm ..... I hadn't considered ECU involvement.
It already has a rattle in/near the engine compartment that recently started but got much worse end of last week. It also has a miss.
It's currently my dd; BUT: I no longer have confidence it's going to get me back from work, so tomorrow is its last trip (voluntarily on my part, and ONLY as a desperate last resort in the future).
The rattle might actually be the PS pump(!). I've looked underneath this vehicle, and PS fluid constantly leaks out. I think the pump is shot [rattle], though it still pumps when I put more fluid in, and the steering is then pretty easy and smooth. But I also see oozing on the lines, and I think the PS rack leaks also. And that fluid leaks onto the alternator, and I already had to replace that - though I was lucky and was able to get one at a local p-n-p. So I think I'm pretty much done with the power steering.
This is also the one where the oil pump doesn't keep pressure (and it's between the engine and the tranny); but it still runs - though going uphill is a challenge. Legit $320 purchase - and I've definitely gotten my money out if it.
Based on:
1. the cost of finding another unique-to- this-car power steering set up, and
2. the work involved in replacing the oil pump, and
2. the other things that aren't working,
I might as well turn this into a racecar.
I had a Civic that lost power steering. It was harder to turn the Civic than this GS430.
My '91 Caprice Classic [since scrapped] also ran low on PS fluid one time, and that was even harder to turn than the Civic(!); but that's a dam big and heavy car. And it stunned me that more fluid actually 'fixed' the issue with the Caprice.
2001 GS 430 - I'm ready to DOMINATE.
Curb weight 3,707.
After so many interesting responses, I did a search and found these two threads to reread:
Anybody run a heavy car with no power steering?
Hmm ..... I hadn't considered ECU involvement.
It already has a rattle in/near the engine compartment that recently started but got much worse end of last week. It also has a miss.
It's currently my dd; BUT: I no longer have confidence it's going to get me back from work, so tomorrow is its last trip (voluntarily on my part, and ONLY as a desperate last resort in the future).
The rattle might actually be the PS pump(!). I've looked underneath this vehicle, and PS fluid constantly leaks out. I think the pump is shot [rattle], though it still pumps when I put more fluid in, and the steering is then pretty easy and smooth. But I also see oozing on the lines, and I think the PS rack leaks also. And that fluid leaks onto the alternator, and I already had to replace that - though I was lucky and was able to get one at a local p-n-p. So I think I'm pretty much done with the power steering.
This is also the one where the oil pump doesn't keep pressure (and it's between the engine and the tranny); but it still runs - though going uphill is a challenge. Legit $320 purchase - and I've definitely gotten my money out if it.
Based on:
1. the cost of finding another unique-to- this-car power steering set up, and
2. the work involved in replacing the oil pump, and
2. the other things that aren't working,
I might as well turn this into a racecar.I had a Civic that lost power steering. It was harder to turn the Civic than this GS430.
My '91 Caprice Classic [since scrapped] also ran low on PS fluid one time, and that was even harder to turn than the Civic(!); but that's a dam big and heavy car. And it stunned me that more fluid actually 'fixed' the issue with the Caprice.
Put that car on a diet! we run a 88 Fireturd. no PS cooler, no issues. how hard is it to swap out the box? You don't want that stuff leaking all under the car and on the track.
Time to yank that drive train and do an LS swap.
y'all have power steering?
next you're going to be going on about having power brakes
[snip]
Put that car on a diet! we run a 88 Fireturd. no PS cooler, no issues. how hard is it to swap out the box? You don't want that stuff leaking all under the car and on the track.
Time to yank that drive train and do an LS swap.
Down power it? When I'm ready to DOMINATE with 300hp and 325lbft? Doesn't make sense. [<That was a joke]
y'all have power steering?
next you're going to be going on about having power brakes
Doesn't need 'em - yet.
This is a true momentum car. Currently, though I can get up to about 21mph reasonably quickly, uphill I can only increase speed at a rate of about +1mph per 5 second interval. Downhill does a bit better, but it's still slow. Think '69 Beetle, but I'd still lose a race to about 55mph. It does ok on the 70mph Turnpike sections as long as they're flat, and it does corner well.
If it came up, I'd tell any of the angry people behind me "I'm doing a 'best gas mileage experiment'."
I actually bought this for spare, closely related, parts purposes, so I had a plan to pull the engine eventually regardless.
I don’t know that I’d replace a Toyota V8 with an LS. That Lexus mill is simply a GREAT engine. Jet smooth and super reliable, based on how a non-car-savvy pal beats on his ‘92 LS400 for the past decade, and another buddy has one in a GX470 that is used for off-road recovery (ya know, extracting stuck Jeep Rubicons for $$)…
I almost put one in the Corvette, just to poke the “y u rune Classic” bunch, but got a can’t refuse deal on an LS, which has taught me how hard it is to put a Chevy in a Chevy…
I don’t know that I’d replace a Toyota V8 with an LS. That Lexus mill is simply a GREAT engine. Jet smooth and super reliable, based on how a non-car-savvy pal beats on his ‘92 LS400 for the past decade, and another buddy has one in a GX470 that is used for off-road recovery (ya know, extracting stuck Jeep Rubicons for $$)…
^♡
I almost put one in the Corvette, just to poke the “y u rune Classic” bunch, but got a can’t refuse deal on an LS, which has taught me how hard it is to put a Chevy in a Chevy…
Interesting; out of curiosity: in comparison, what are the specs on that LS, and how much unanticipated time on the install (though 'you can never go back')?
(You can always put in the UZ later ;-) )
The LS has a Scat strokef crank, big lumpy cam, LS6 intake. The usual 
When it was offered to me in the three figures including a TH400, my Lexus UZ plans were derailed.
Making the serpentine drive work and fit, building a bracket to match the TH400 to the C beam tying the driveline together, getting the wiring to work when the start point was a roller that had an SBC with 4 barrel, all kinds of header attempts, before landing on extrude honed Escalade 6.0 manifolds which fit perfectly… this all takes time. I can make almost anything run, but my fab skills… luckily my teammate likes to solve problems by using a welder.
The LS has a Scat strokef crank, big lumpy cam, LS6 intake. The usual
When it was offered to me in the three figures including a TH400, my Lexus UZ plans were derailed.
(snip)
Well ... ... yes! (Not that I know anything about what the first line means, but you seem happy).
I don’t know that I’d replace a Toyota V8 with an LS. That Lexus mill is simply a GREAT engine. Jet smooth and super reliable, based on how a non-car-savvy pal beats on his ‘92 LS400 for the past decade, and another buddy has one in a GX470 that is used for off-road recovery (ya know, extracting stuck Jeep Rubicons for $$)…
I almost put one in the Corvette, just to poke the “y u rune Classic” bunch, but got a can’t refuse deal on an LS, which has taught me how hard it is to put a Chevy in a Chevy…
The only reason I mentioned it is because the are cheap, make good power parts are cheap and you can get one with a 5 speed...But the Toyota's do run smooth.
The only reason I mentioned it is because the are cheap, make good power parts are cheap and you can get one with a 5 speed...But the Toyota's do run smooth.
It's a good suggestion, I think you've made it before and I noted it at the time, and one that I thought of for an older, not selected candidate, based on your suggestion.
It's also something I'm considering for another, future future build candidate.
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