Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

dry sump?

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:
hrlyTCH wrote:

That's a lot of freaking oil... does that engine run some sort of blend like a sea-doo where it drips oil into the gas as you run or is that just it designed flaw like an rx-7 where it purposely burn oil to lube the seals. Either way I now think I know why my brother (team Cpt., Serj on the forums) was asking if I could bring all the oil over-flow from work. If your target is Gingerman to race I'll try to keep ya in mind and bring what I can, if I remember.

It's not supposed to burn it, it just has crappy rings and valve seals. the engine was designed in 1936

i also suspect quite a bit just leaked out. there were many interfaces on this motor that weren't sealed. i tried to address them, oil leaks should be minimized.

deer gawd man sounds like the local parts stores are gonna have an empty shelf where the cheap stuff is, as well as, where the straight 30 and 40 stuff was sitting.

On the subject of fram filters... I've never had a problem but then again my car ran a tg3387a ( i think) but thats been a while since i ever bought/used one ( i made a switch to diff. products).

Although i haven't used a fram oil filter in a while i do get there air filters from time to time.

Other then that i won't touch valvoline anymore especially after doing the oil change on my ex's car and seeing the condition it was in before she even made it to the 3k mark. (still had atleast 300miles left before it was due). Oh well... the intake gaskets are gonna go out sometime soon anyways so that poor car,as sharp as it is with so low miles, is getting one nasty round about of torture.

just another soon to be future Lemons car if she gives it up when the intake goes...lol (it's an Olds Alero with the 3400 v6 in case you're wondering)

i'll stop rambling sorry

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

sublimate wrote:
Marc wrote:

It's not supposed to burn it, it just has crappy rings and valve seals. the engine was designed in 1936

i also suspect quite a bit just leaked out. there were many interfaces on this motor that weren't sealed. i tried to address them, oil leaks should be minimized.

Even more modern radial engines burn a lot of oil because oil pools in the upside-down cylinders.

Which brings up the question: on radial aircraft before starting you're supposed to manually pull the propeller through a couple of rotations to check that the bottom cylinders aren't hydro-locked from the oil pooling.

Do you have any easy way to do that?  Or just say a prayer to the bent connecting rod god?

Good Catch! Its bent rod city if it hydros... easy answer (that kinda stinks, but gotta do it anyway) is just before the first session, and each first run of the day, pull the lower couple plugs and crank it with the ignition off to dump any accumulated oil.. then you are good to go.

"Don't mess with Lexas!" LS400. We survived another one! See website link for build details.
Maker of the "unofficial Lemons fish!" - If you ask nice, I'll likely give you one at the track.

479

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

sublimate wrote:

Even more modern radial engines burn a lot of oil because oil pools in the upside-down cylinders.

Which brings up the question: on radial aircraft before starting you're supposed to manually pull the propeller through a couple of rotations to check that the bottom cylinders aren't hydro-locked from the oil pooling.

Do you have any easy way to do that?  Or just say a prayer to the bent connecting rod god?

easy, put the car in gear and push it gently. or pull two plugs and crank. it's pretty easy to access them.

as for oil, i learnt my lesson about cheap stuff. it just turns to shit in these heat conditions. i need the oil to keep this motor together so i'll be running klotz. thankfully they have me on their racer discount program in exchange for putting a sticker on the car.

yeah, the three surrounding counties will smell like klotz.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Damn.  I hope you're buying oil by the drum, or at least in 5 gal buckets.

Maximum Effort Motorsports - Mid-engine 1979 Chevette - Class C Winner - GP Du Lac Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
New England Long Winter Build Award - 2015
IOE Winner, Loudon Annoying 2011, Judges Choice - Loudon Annoying 2012
Class C & Least Horrible Yank Tank winner - Boston Tow Party & Overhead Cam Bake 2011

481 (edited by Marc 2011-03-21 06:28 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

mike944 wrote:

Damn.  I hope you're buying oil by the drum, or at least in 5 gal buckets.

that is available. i want to run the motor for a few hours before purchasing a 55gal drum of it. i suspect we're only going to be talking about 10-15galons for the race.

482 (edited by Marc 2011-03-21 06:40 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

oh, forgot to post tonight's update.

1) installed all of the injector tops that Aaron made for me.
2) ordered all the fittings for the fuel system
3) ordered the diesel superduty fan blade

and then the fun started. i went to install the missing seal for the angry hamster box and i discovered that the seal diameter wasn't machined right so i had to go to the machine shop and make it bigger. thankfully it needed to be bigger, not smaller.

damnit...
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_1vQ1IOPETJM/TYgMe3mkbUI/AAAAAAAAAB8/It7rTHmWjE4/IMG_0157.jpg

fixed:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_1vQ1IOPETJM/TYgMgejmayI/AAAAAAAAACE/cxcKd2GHLP8/IMG_0159.jpg

after that was fixed, i can assemble the box for the last time:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_1vQ1IOPETJM/TYgMggZK7JI/AAAAAAAAACI/TP7TyL2eWK8/IMG_0160.jpg


here you can see it with the flywheel and bellhousing adapter mounted:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_1vQ1IOPETJM/TYgMg1vezvI/AAAAAAAAACM/2MJkS5goEOI/IMG_0162.jpg

the flywheel is from my wife's '08 wrx that i upgraded to a lightweight flywheel. i just had to add 9 extra holes for the bolts and dowel pins.

and that's when I figured the next issue for the night. the shop sold me the wrong clutch disk. it has the wrong spline for the transmission.  AAAARRRRGGGG!

so i called it a night. i'll hit up fort wayne clutch tomorrow and see about getting a different disk.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Hey what size is that chain?  How many links is it?  Short chains don't work very well because they get really hot and then sling off their lubricant.  What kind of RPM will that chain see?

Cars, cameras, and easy living...

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

GnomeFabTech wrote:

Hey what size is that chain?  How many links is it?  Short chains don't work very well because they get really hot and then sling off their lubricant.  What kind of RPM will that chain see?

Rampant speculation follows:

Engine is rated at 1850RPM in paranoid airplane-safety rating mode. Lets be generous and assume final tune tops out at 2100RPM - so 2100RPM on the big sprocket.

Going back to the post where some chain and a bigass sprocket arrived in the mail (Page 14) it appears to be a 60-link chain and a 52-tooth sprocket. So that's a total of 2423 chain RPMs. At rated speed only, it's 2134RPM.  That sounds reasonable to me, but I know nothing about chain drives.



Chain width is the size of a nickel - about 21mm.

Driver, Pit Monkey, Rod Buster and Engine Fire Starter
Team FinalGear

485

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

EyeMWing wrote:
GnomeFabTech wrote:

Hey what size is that chain?  How many links is it?  Short chains don't work very well because they get really hot and then sling off their lubricant.  What kind of RPM will that chain see?

Rampant speculation follows:

Engine is rated at 1850RPM in paranoid airplane-safety rating mode. Lets be generous and assume final tune tops out at 2100RPM - so 2100RPM on the big sprocket.

Going back to the post where some chain and a bigass sprocket arrived in the mail (Page 14) it appears to be a 60-link chain and a 52-tooth sprocket. So that's a total of 2423 chain RPMs. At rated speed only, it's 2134RPM.  That sounds reasonable to me, but I know nothing about chain drives.



Chain width is the size of a nickel - about 21mm.

not a bad estimate smile

it's 630 drag racing chain with oversized pins so the chain has a 3/4" pitch. i have 74 links (55.5" long). the big sprocket is 50teeth and i was going to set the redline at 1900RPM for this race and maybe raise it for the next race.

that makes the chain have a max speed of 99ft/second or 67.5mph

also, it will be about 4" from a giant fan, it should be reasonably cool and it definitely isn't overspending.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:

4)    Megasquirt
  a.    Draw up vehicle wiring harness
  b.    Wire it up.
  c.    TUNE IT!

THIS is gonna be fun. Key is limiting scope, Megasquirt offers so much cool $hit that you'll be tempted to install that you'll never finish it. I always struggle when trying to mentally forbid myself to add crap. I mean, how could one say no to second baro sensor,  timed injection, PWM idle air control, closed loop idle, multispark, digital boost control... Next thing you know, you have an engine from 1982 that's riding the bleeding edge of technology and takes you years to finish. Grr.

K Car Stalker

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

sublimate wrote:
Marc wrote:

It's not supposed to burn it, it just has crappy rings and valve seals. the engine was designed in 1936

i also suspect quite a bit just leaked out. there were many interfaces on this motor that weren't sealed. i tried to address them, oil leaks should be minimized.

Even more modern radial engines burn a lot of oil because oil pools in the upside-down cylinders.

Which brings up the question: on radial aircraft before starting you're supposed to manually pull the propeller through a couple of rotations to check that the bottom cylinders aren't hydro-locked from the oil pooling.

Do you have any easy way to do that?  Or just say a prayer to the bent connecting rod god?

Assuming the valve train cooperates, you could do it the quick and dirty way like we used to do with the sprint cars.  Put it in gear and push the car backwards through all 5 cycles.  Compression is low enough that it should push easy enough although i"m not sure how happy the chain drive doohickey wil feel about it.

1990 RX7 "Mazdarita"  1964 Sunbeam Imp (IOE 2013 Sears Pointless) 2002 Jaguar x-type (Winner C-Class 2021 Sears Pointless)
Gone bye-bye
1994 Jaguar XJ12 (Winner C-Class 2013 Sears Pointless)  1980 Rover SD1 (I Got Screwed 2014 Return of Lemonites)

488 (edited by Marc 2011-03-22 05:42 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

firegremlin wrote:
Marc wrote:

4)    Megasquirt
  a.    Draw up vehicle wiring harness
  b.    Wire it up.
  c.    TUNE IT!

THIS is gonna be fun. Key is limiting scope, Megasquirt offers so much cool $hit that you'll be tempted to install that you'll never finish it. I always struggle when trying to mentally forbid myself to add crap. I mean, how could one say no to second baro sensor,  timed injection, PWM idle air control, closed loop idle, multispark, digital boost control... Next thing you know, you have an engine from 1982 that's riding the bleeding edge of technology and takes you years to finish. Grr.

thankfully time won't let me do that.

i'm wiring the following:
-injectors
-coils
-crank & cam sensor
-tps
-map (though i may not use it)

idle will be set with a screw, warmup may require someone playing with the throttle for 2-3 minutes till she can idle.

and that's it. i'm not bothering with an O2 sensor or air temp sensors. i'm just going to shoot for a 13:1 mixture across the board other than very low throttle positions and even then i'll leave it in the slightly fat 14:1 or so.

i will likely explore all the features eventually, just not for this race smile

489

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

i know someone will say that i'm going to kill the motor with the above statement, but let's consider the following:

in it's stock configuration, the timing was set manually by the pilot (model T style) the fuel was mixed by an updraft carb that din't compensate much for altitude, all the runners were different lengths and the intake was mounted in the propwash.

the fuel was 73 octane which is far from stable.

honestly, I'd have to try quite hard to even get to the point where the conditions are as bad as they were in the stock configuration.

490

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I see no problem with your tuning or megasquirt plans.  13.0:1 across the board should be fine as long as the plugs can get up to cleaning temp, especially with it burning all that oil.  Leaning the a/f ratio to 14.0+ at idle could help keep the plugs clean though (like you mentioned.)  If the warmup settings are close it should idle cold about 3/4 to 4/5th of the warm idle rpm without any idle helpers.  Sequential injection helps too.  If its a super low compression engine designed for 73 octane im not sure you could make it knock with good gas and 50' timing.  This is what im used to on gas/piston car engines anyways.

  If the throttle bodies prove to be almost impossible to sync or be consistent over the throttle swing you may want to richen it to 12.5 at 80%+ throttle just in case the leaner cylinder is off by quite a bit.  The almost closed throttle and closed throttle areas of the map may need to be set a bit rich if the itb's arent closing evenly when synced at part throttle.  ITB's can be a royal pita.

What are you using to read a/f when you tune?  One per runner?

The map signal will probably be very bouncy with a big and slow engine.  You could try different size mig welding tips in the vacuum lines before they merge to slow/smooth the vacuum signal from each cylinder.  I think TPS is the way to go for this as long as there is a good solid way to lock down the throttle rod adjustment on the itb with the tps sensor and not touch that one after its tuned.  Adjust the other cylinders throttle linkages if it goes out of sync.

-Killer B's (as in rally) '84 4000Q 4.2V8. Audis never win?

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

I'm in the gathering-parts stage of converting the 318 in my A100 to a Megasquirt setup (just got a TBI intake and throttle body and most of the required sensors, have yet to plumb a return line to the gas tank). I'm sure I'll be consulting with you guys about how to make it work.

492 (edited by Marc 2011-03-23 02:48 AM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

jrbe wrote:

I see no problem with your tuning or megasquirt plans.  13.0:1 across the board should be fine as long as the plugs can get up to cleaning temp, especially with it burning all that oil.  Leaning the a/f ratio to 14.0+ at idle could help keep the plugs clean though (like you mentioned.)  If the warmup settings are close it should idle cold about 3/4 to 4/5th of the warm idle rpm without any idle helpers.  Sequential injection helps too.  If its a super low compression engine designed for 73 octane im not sure you could make it knock with good gas and 50' timing.  This is what im used to on gas/piston car engines anyways.

  If the throttle bodies prove to be almost impossible to sync or be consistent over the throttle swing you may want to richen it to 12.5 at 80%+ throttle just in case the leaner cylinder is off by quite a bit.  The almost closed throttle and closed throttle areas of the map may need to be set a bit rich if the itb's arent closing evenly when synced at part throttle.  ITB's can be a royal pita.

What are you using to read a/f when you tune?  One per runner?

The map signal will probably be very bouncy with a big and slow engine.  You could try different size mig welding tips in the vacuum lines before they merge to slow/smooth the vacuum signal from each cylinder.  I think TPS is the way to go for this as long as there is a good solid way to lock down the throttle rod adjustment on the itb with the tps sensor and not touch that one after its tuned.  Adjust the other cylinders throttle linkages if it goes out of sync.

the throttle bodies already have a separate tap for the map signal that is designed to be merged together for the fuel regulator and the MAP sensor. there's a different port for the brakes so i should be all good.

for tuning i'll hook up an O2 sensor to the top port only and then use a temperature gun across all heads to make sure they are reasonably close.

if i have issues with injector cleaning i can probably hook up the engine temp sensor to a potentiometer and make it so the driver can adjust the mixture +/- .5 each way from inside the cab. if it starts stumbling from fouled plugs just turn a bit counterclockwise until it clears up. but i'm not sure if my other drivers know what rich stumbling feels/sounds like.

the other thing to keep in mind is that E85 is happier at a MUCH wider A/F ratio. i think my throttle plates are all balanced well but E85 and fattened a bit more would ensure a good burn.


Judge Phil wrote:

I'm in the gathering-parts stage of converting the 318 in my A100 to a Megasquirt setup (just got a TBI intake and throttle body and most of the required sensors, have yet to plumb a return line to the gas tank). I'm sure I'll be consulting with you guys about how to make it work.

'll know a whole lot more about making megasquirt happy in a week or two smile

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

BTW, just making sure again, your MS is the one with an 8-channel sequential ignition board add-on, right?

K Car Stalker

494

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

firegremlin wrote:

BTW, just making sure again, your MS is the one with an 8-channel sequential ignition board add-on, right?

yeah, MS3 with the expansion board.

495 (edited by firegremlin 2011-03-23 08:45 AM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Ok, should be a breeze once you time it. I'm betting on 20 minutes from the moment you finish hooking up the wiring to the moment it coughs hard enough to run.

BTW, if you got a harness and stuff with your throttle body set, a MAP and a temp sensor should be on there. Temp sensor is advisable and is easy to set up and calibrate, but your best bet for MAP is a GM sensor. Yamaha MAP is kinda funny and mine took some time to calibrate correctly.

K Car Stalker

496

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

firegremlin wrote:

Ok, should be a breeze once you time it. I'm betting on 20 minutes from the moment you finish hooking up the wiring to the moment it coughs hard enough to run.

BTW, if you got a harness and stuff with your throttle body set, a MAP and a temp sensor should be on there. Temp sensor is advisable and is easy to set up and calibrate, but your best bet for MAP is a GM sensor. Yamaha MAP is kinda funny and mine took some time to calibrate correctly.

oh, thanks for the note on the MAP sensor, i was planning on using it.

are you talking about the air temp or engine temp? air temp is a bit tricky, i have 5 intake manifolds. i could use outside temp i guess. I'll pick up a different map sensor.

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Outside temp is the easiest. On my Twinstar, I just have it out in the open air. Your tune will compensate for any manifold-to-air differences once the engine is warmed up, you just want to know what kind of air you're taking in (on a normally aspirated engine, that is) so that you don't have to retune it every time the temperature jumps/drops 20 degrees.

The reason why GM MAP is a good idea is because there's a map for it already, and if it dies it's easy to replace. Yamaha one, you have to calibrate it with a vacuum gauge and pump. Now, if you have a gauge and pump handy, and are willing to spend some time tinkering with it, you should be good - I just didn't have one on hand so I had to calibrate it against my megasquirted car while it was running, which took some time smile

K Car Stalker

498 (edited by Marc 2011-03-23 05:35 PM)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

alright, it took 2 days, but i finally have all the clutch stuff figured out.

continuing the other day's assembly:

1993 awd clutch disk:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0166.jpg

2002 2.5L N/A impreza pressure plate:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMG_0167.jpg

and the tricky part:

top left is some random throw out bearing that i found at the parts store
right is the 1993 2wd impreza throw out bearing carrier minus the bearing
bottom left is the custom stepped ring i made
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMAG0082.jpg

just spread the ring over the step on the retainer
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMAG0083.jpg

slip the different release bearing over it:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMAG0085.jpg

and then roll the edge over the bearing to hold it all together:
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMAG0087.jpg
http://frankensteinmotorworks.com/AirplaneMR2/IMAG0088.jpg


I then reinstalled it all in the car and it looks like the clutch has a wide enough bearing to engage the pressure plate fingers and also the fork has enough travel to fully disengage the clutch. it's a bit further at the end of the travel than i'd like but it's good enough! if i have to take it back apart i'll throw in a 75thou thick spacer between the flywheel and the "crank".

all the parts for the fuel rail should be here tomorrow, i'll get started on it tomorrow evening.

(as a side note, the web-server issues are resolved so expect posts to be picture heavy again. everyone likes pictures!)

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Marc wrote:

in it's stock configuration, the timing was set manually by the pilot (model T style) the fuel was mixed by an updraft carb that din't compensate much for altitude, all the runners were different lengths and the intake was mounted in the propwash.

Hope your project is successful, I am worried about the chain.  Thought about coming up just to watch the race.

Not that it matters, but the timing is typically fixed in the magnetos, and the mixture is adjusted by the pilot. Pilot adjusts the mixture during the climb, but does not lean so much that the engine burns up as excess fuel is used to cool the engine. 

We get a good deal on Aeroshell multigrade 15/50 and 100 at Sam's Club, and we buy a large amount.  I ran Aeroshell w100 in my 550c.i. flat six as it was approaching TBO and was blowing about a quart an hour past the rings, seemed to keep everything happy.

"You can’t make a pig into a race car, but you can make a very fast pig."

500

Re: Never before has so little power been made from so much displacement!

Team BenzGay wrote:
Marc wrote:

in it's stock configuration, the timing was set manually by the pilot (model T style) the fuel was mixed by an updraft carb that din't compensate much for altitude, all the runners were different lengths and the intake was mounted in the propwash.

Hope your project is successful, I am worried about the chain.  Thought about coming up just to watch the race.

Not that it matters, but the timing is typically fixed in the magnetos, and the mixture is adjusted by the pilot. Pilot adjusts the mixture during the climb, but does not lean so much that the engine burns up as excess fuel is used to cool the engine. 

We get a good deal on Aeroshell multigrade 15/50 and 100 at Sam's Club, and we buy a large amount.  I ran Aeroshell w100 in my 550c.i. flat six as it was approaching TBO and was blowing about a quart an hour past the rings, seemed to keep everything happy.

I may be wrong about some of the details, but the major point is the stock carburetor/magneto setup is terrible and antiquated.

I'll have to see what my oil temps look like before I downgrade the oil. without the airflow from the prop i suspect my oil temps will be much higher and needing the higher quality oil.